Difference between masculine and male identified?

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I am finding more and more that younger people take this stance and actually are breaking down the binary in a whole new way. Every generation makes its distinctive mark. This is a good thing.

I don't think you are the only one that feels the discomfort in butch threads. Sometimes I think we need some branching out with our topic area zones. maybe we need a BOI ZONE? Are there other identifications like this that may not (I am only talking from my own feelings, have no idea about everyone else) be represented well within the identification zones we have?

Just a random thought as I do see a younger generation coming up that really does seem far less caught up with butch, femme, trans, intergendered.

I realise you post is moreso about creating an area for those who do not identify as butch or femme, and the discomfort some feel in posting/taking part in those areas, however, I just wanted to bring something up that was brought to mind during the first part of your post. Really, only part of it is a direct response to you, AtLast, while the other is addressing an observation I've made both offline and online.

I've read quite a few times now, on this site as well as the dash site, people stating that the new generation as a whole is moving away from the butch/femme dynamic, that it is breaking down the binary, that it is breaking away from stereotypes, and that young people are no longer caught up in gender, as though feeling a resonance in traditional gender dynamics is somehow negative.

That is all well and good for those who are truly androgynous and doing so, however, I think such posts give off the impression that the entire younger generation (not sure how exactly you're defining it here, or if at 25 I fall into that younger generation) is moving further into the realm androgyny and leaving gender behind. This hasn't been my experience, and there are still quite a few young butches and femmes who feel the dynamic fits them perfectly.

Over time I've also read a few statements that either directly state or imply that moving toward androgyny is moving toward openmindedness, and that falling into the binary somehow denotes closedmindedness, or the inability to remove one's self from a box society has placed us in (as though one could only ever be placed within that binary by society). There are still many people under 30 who find that the butch/femme binary resonates with them, and there seems to be a tendency now to denounce such individuals as "slaves" to so-called "patriarchy," just as has been done in the past.

I also think that we should recognise that androgyny is a part of the current trend right now. It's what's being pushed by the media and by popular culture as a whole. I do not deny that there are many out there who truly feel themselves to be androgynous, but if we're going to delve into the fact that that some, in the past, have felt forced into the dynamic in order to follow a trend within a given sub-culture, then we should also recognise the state of current trends and youth sub-cultures.

I agree that everyone should have their own space (and if this post invades that space, then I'll be glad to start another thread on it, instead), but I get the impression that asking for that space often comes hand in hand with the implication that the binary itself is something inherently closedminded and oppressive, which is not the case unless one is forced into it, or feels the need to follow a trend. As if one has to be superior to the other.

We can make a lot of progressive headway while either staying within the binary or moving away from it, whichever more accurately reflects each of us. But I see a lot of people today both irl and online who seem to think that associating with androgyny, ecclecticism, underground sub-cultures or anything that appears to outwardly defy tradition automatically makes them openminded and intelligent, when in reality they have little clue as to why they've decided to jump on the bandwagon. To me there is nothing openminded about mindlessly following a trend, which many young people continue to do. Again, I'm not implying that everyone who identifies in such a way is following a trend, or that anyone in this thread or forum is doing so, but there are certainly those who are, and so I think we should be looking at both sides of the coin if there's going to be discussion on the negatives of one side.

I don't bring this up to point fingers or start an argument, but I do feel that this is often a barrier and the source of some hostility in gender-related discussions.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I realise you post is moreso about creating an area for those who do not identify as butch or femme, and the discomfort some feel in posting/taking part in those areas, however, I just wanted to bring something up that was brought to mind during the first part of your post. Really, only part of it is a direct response to you, AtLast, while the other is addressing an observation I've made both offline and online.

I've read quite a few times now, on this site as well as the dash site, people stating that the new generation as a whole is moving away from the butch/femme dynamic, that it is breaking down the binary, that it is breaking away from stereotypes, and that young people are no longer caught up in gender, as though feeling a resonance in traditional gender dynamics is somehow negative.

That is all well and good for those who are truly androgynous and doing so, however, I think such posts give off the impression that the entire younger generation (not sure how exactly you're defining it here, or if at 25 I fall into that younger generation) is moving further into the realm androgyny and leaving gender behind. This hasn't been my experience, and there are still quite a few young butches and femmes who feel the dynamic fits them perfectly.

Over time I've also read a few statements that either directly state or imply that moving toward androgyny is moving toward openmindedness, and that falling into the binary somehow denotes closedmindedness, or the inability to remove one's self from a box society has placed us in (as though one could only ever be placed within that binary by society). There are still many people under 30 who find that the butch/femme binary resonates with them, and there seems to be a tendency now to denounce such individuals as "slaves" to so-called "patriarchy," just as has been done in the past.

I also think that we should recognise that androgyny is a part of the current trend right now. It's what's being pushed by the media and by popular culture as a whole. I do not deny that there are many out there who truly feel themselves to be androgynous, but if we're going to delve into the fact that that some, in the past, have felt forced into the dynamic in order to follow a trend within a given sub-culture, then we should also recognise the state of current trends and youth sub-cultures.

I agree that everyone should have their own space (and if this post invades that space, then I'll be glad to start another thread on it, instead), but I get the impression that asking for that space often comes hand in hand with the implication that the binary itself is something inherently closedminded and oppressive, which is not the case unless one is forced into it, or feels the need to follow a trend. As if one has to be superior to the other.

We can make a lot of progressive headway while either staying within the binary or moving away from it, whichever more accurately reflects each of us. But I see a lot of people today both irl and online who seem to think that associating with androgyny, ecclecticism, underground sub-cultures or anything that appears to outwardly defy tradition automatically makes them openminded and intelligent, when in reality they have little clue as to why they've decided to jump on the bandwagon. To me there is nothing openminded about mindlessly following a trend, which many young people continue to do. Again, I'm not implying that everyone who identifies in such a way is following a trend, or that anyone in this thread or forum is doing so, but there are certainly those who are, and so I think we should be looking at both sides of the coin if there's going to be discussion on the negatives of one side.

I don't bring this up to point fingers or start an argument, but I do feel that this is often a barrier and the source of some hostility in gender-related discussions.

I don't read this as hostile at all- you are claiming who and what you are and disagreeing with me. You are making points about something that matters to you. I did refer to many, not all in my post. I am also speaking from where I am geographically as an active person in many areas of our community and still do work (I’m retired, but volunteer clinical time to organizations) with younger people, mainly those raised in queer families (lesbian, gay, bi, trans, or intergendered, some being past heterosexuals). The population I am speaking about is urban, mostly middle-class (some working-class), and in college. Considering these variables is important because this is the make-up of the some I am speaking about. They all are active in an organization committed to offspring of queer people.

I do not view either staying within or going outside of the binary as better or less than. Neither is positive or negative. I am pointing out another way that I have indeed been experiencing younger people as part of our community That's all.

I do agree it is not a good idea to generalize, however, I didn't. We most likely do have a difference of opinion if what you are speaking in terms of traditional gender dynamics being based upon the age old patriarchal misogynist paradigms. Different generation, same old sexism and male privilege.

If you are speaking from some other context in this regard, then that would be different. I don’t have enough information from your post to ascertain this, however.

There are many positive attributes of female or male within the traditional binary. I am not saying that there isn’t.

Actually, I would like to hear more from you about this because I don’t want to assume anything negative with what you are talking about. You could be speaking to a whole new paradigm that I am unfamiliar with and I am always ready to hear something new.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I realise you post is moreso about creating an area for those who do not identify as butch or femme, and the discomfort some feel in posting/taking part in those areas, however, I just wanted to bring something up that was brought to mind during the first part of your post. Really, only part of it is a direct response to you, AtLast, while the other is addressing an observation I've made both offline and online.

I've read quite a few times now, on this site as well as the dash site, people stating that the new generation as a whole is moving away from the butch/femme dynamic, that it is breaking down the binary, that it is breaking away from stereotypes, and that young people are no longer caught up in gender, as though feeling a resonance in traditional gender dynamics is somehow negative.

That is all well and good for those who are truly androgynous and doing so, however, I think such posts give off the impression that the entire younger generation (not sure how exactly you're defining it here, or if at 25 I fall into that younger generation) is moving further into the realm androgyny and leaving gender behind. This hasn't been my experience, and there are still quite a few young butches and femmes who feel the dynamic fits them perfectly.

Over time I've also read a few statements that either directly state or imply that moving toward androgyny is moving toward openmindedness, and that falling into the binary somehow denotes closedmindedness, or the inability to remove one's self from a box society has placed us in (as though one could only ever be placed within that binary by society). There are still many people under 30 who find that the butch/femme binary resonates with them, and there seems to be a tendency now to denounce such individuals as "slaves" to so-called "patriarchy," just as has been done in the past.

I also think that we should recognise that androgyny is a part of the current trend right now. It's what's being pushed by the media and by popular culture as a whole. I do not deny that there are many out there who truly feel themselves to be androgynous, but if we're going to delve into the fact that that some, in the past, have felt forced into the dynamic in order to follow a trend within a given sub-culture, then we should also recognise the state of current trends and youth sub-cultures.

I agree that everyone should have their own space (and if this post invades that space, then I'll be glad to start another thread on it, instead), but I get the impression that asking for that space often comes hand in hand with the implication that the binary itself is something inherently closedminded and oppressive, which is not the case unless one is forced into it, or feels the need to follow a trend. As if one has to be superior to the other.

We can make a lot of progressive headway while either staying within the binary or moving away from it, whichever more accurately reflects each of us. But I see a lot of people today both irl and online who seem to think that associating with androgyny, ecclecticism, underground sub-cultures or anything that appears to outwardly defy tradition automatically makes them openminded and intelligent, when in reality they have little clue as to why they've decided to jump on the bandwagon. To me there is nothing openminded about mindlessly following a trend, which many young people continue to do. Again, I'm not implying that everyone who identifies in such a way is following a trend, or that anyone in this thread or forum is doing so, but there are certainly those who are, and so I think we should be looking at both sides of the coin if there's going to be discussion on the negatives of one side.

I don't bring this up to point fingers or start an argument, but I do feel that this is often a barrier and the source of some hostility in gender-related discussions.

I'd remind you that there are those that have called butch femme a trend, and also that non-butch- boi's, GQ, tombois, tomboys etc. or in general queer female bodied masculine "non-butch" people are not a "new" thing.

In the same sense that trans people always existed, but are now more in the media seemingly making them more in number... they are I believe just more visible and able to put a name to themselves and be out in who they are more easily and somewhat more safely.

I'll even put forth that many masculine females and women before this "trend" (which I call a movement even though yes these things get trend jumpers by default) ID'd as butch because there wasn't a choice, wasn't the visibility and thus information out their for them to put the correct "name" to the internal feeling.

I know quite a few who ID'd as butch previously are finally finding a place, they grew up taking the closest thing that fit even if itchy and not quite right. Personally I really struggled with butch ID for years, and avoided acknowledging what I'd felt for a long time... and to be upfront I haven't ID'd as "a" butch for a while, hence my lesser participation over time and finally change of my ID section.

I didn't talk about it publicly here because of e-x-a-c-t-l-y what you conveyed here, I'm painfully aware that this feeling is not all that uncommon in bf circles and I've been part of this community for a long time and I guess didn't want to lose it. But now I feel similar to chefhottie in finding a place in it and for me, and my own concerns about being accepted and so I've avoided like the plague expressing I'm not butch a noun. I would hope it wouldn't make a difference, but I also live in the real world.

Unfortunately my hand is forced here... as whether intended or not posts such as yours can create mis-information and judgments toward non-butch GQ, boi's, tomboys etc. etc. etc. and make it seem unwelcoming here.

But ironically I'm glad you said it, because come what may it's something that's been weighing on me for a long time.

It's not a threat to butch femme culture, it's simply a different "culture", other queer masculine female bodied cousins just being out and proud too. I don't know why we all can't just support each other without it always being seen as some kind of affront.

Metropolis

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I'd remind you that there are those that have called butch femme a trend, and also that non-butch- boi's, GQ, tombois, tomboys etc. or in general queer female bodied masculine "non-butch" people are not a "new" thing.

In the same sense that trans people always existed, but are now more in the media seemingly making them more in number... they are I believe just more visible and able to put a name to themselves and be out in who they are more easily and somewhat more safely.

I'll even put forth that many masculine females and women before this "trend" (which I call a movement even though yes these things get trend jumpers by default) ID'd as butch because there wasn't a choice, wasn't the visibility and thus information out their for them to put the correct "name" to the internal feeling.

I know quite a few who ID'd as butch previously are finally finding a place, they grew up taking the closest thing that fit even if itchy and not quite right. Personally I really struggled with butch ID for years, and avoided acknowledging what I'd felt for a long time... and to be upfront I haven't ID'd as "a" butch for a while, hence my lesser participation over time and finally change of my ID section.

I didn't talk about it publicly here because of e-x-a-c-t-l-y what you conveyed here, I'm painfully aware that this feeling is not all that uncommon in bf circles and I've been part of this community for a long time and I guess didn't want to lose it. But now I feel similar to chefhottie in finding a place in it and for me, and my own concerns about being accepted and so I've avoided like the plague expressing I'm not butch a noun. I would hope it wouldn't make a difference, but I also live in the real world.

Unfortunately my hand is forced here... as whether intended or not posts such as yours can create mis-information and judgments toward non-butch GQ, boi's, tomboys etc. etc. etc. and make it seem unwelcoming here.

But ironically I'm glad you said it, because come what may it's something that's been weighing on me for a long time.

It's not a threat to butch femme culture, it's simply a different "culture", other queer masculine female bodied cousins just being out and proud too. I don't know why we all can't just support each other without it always being seen as some kind of affront.

Metropolis

Thanks, Met. You have always been someone that has given me comfort in realizing that this can be a painful experience- trying to navigate through what is or is not butch, female or masculine and personally reconcile a place of harmony.

Like you, I am just not going to post much anymore about this even though it very much touches my soul. For me, even as one who identifies and FIB, there is still an area somewhere in-between that has yet to be defined that I can embrace fully that is consistent with my female masculinity (speaking only for myself with the last statement).

I find that I can get support and understanding much more readily outside of B-F sites for this. But, so glad this site exists and is growing. Have hope that the obvious care of the admin in creating a much more open space will prevail concerning gender issues. Open in the sense that there is much to uncover as yet and each person needs to find a comfort zone that is respected and honored.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Thanks, Met. You have always been someone that has given me comfort in realizing that this can be a painful experience- trying to navigate through what is or is not butch, female or masculine and personally reconcile a place of harmony.

Like you, I am just not going to post much anymore about this even though it very much touches my soul. For me, even as one who identifies and FIB, there is still an area somewhere in-between that has yet to be defined that I can embrace fully that is consistent with my female masculinity (speaking only for myself with the last statement).

I find that I can get support and understanding much more readily outside of B-F sites for this. But, so glad this site exists and is growing. Have hope that the obvious care of the admin in creating a much more open space will prevail concerning gender issues. Open in the sense that there is much to uncover as yet and each person needs to find a comfort zone that is respected and honored.

Thanks Atlast, in the end we are just who we are eh. If we find ourselves here, we're here for a reason.

I may not identify as a butch, but I have and do identify with butch on many fronts, like I said cousins. I'm still a "masculine" female gender bender (no that's not my "ID") and femmes are still the yin to my yang.

I think the personal connections that brought us all here, no matter the personal feeling of identity, is where the "community" of it all comes from, and not in that we all ID the same. And just because finding that "place of harmony" doesn't always land us in the same place, doesn't mean we don't travel a lot of the roads together.

I'm not going to derail any further except to say I have no doubt about the inclusiveness the Jack and Medusa intend for this space, I know their good intentions personally and have faith in that.

Ok, I have a date with mo' coffee...
Metropolis

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

And just because finding that "place of harmony" doesn't always land us in the same place, doesn't mean we don't travel a lot of the roads together.

Amen to that, Met. This is a huge statement and, in my opinion, is all that really needs to be said when people ask *those* questions....... Why would a man come to this site? If you don't get the "butch" thing then why not go to a lesbian site? Etc...

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I'd remind you that there are those that have called butch femme a trend, and also that non-butch- boi's, GQ, tombois, tomboys etc. or in general queer female bodied masculine "non-butch" people are not a "new" thing.

In the same sense that trans people always existed, but are now more in the media seemingly making them more in number... they are I believe just more visible and able to put a name to themselves and be out in who they are more easily and somewhat more safely.

I'll even put forth that many masculine females and women before this "trend" (which I call a movement even though yes these things get trend jumpers by default) ID'd as butch because there wasn't a choice, wasn't the visibility and thus information out their for them to put the correct "name" to the internal feeling.

I know quite a few who ID'd as butch previously are finally finding a place, they grew up taking the closest thing that fit even if itchy and not quite right. Personally I really struggled with butch ID for years, and avoided acknowledging what I'd felt for a long time... and to be upfront I haven't ID'd as "a" butch for a while, hence my lesser participation over time and finally change of my ID section.
I didn't talk about it publicly here because of e-x-a-c-t-l-y what you conveyed here, I'm painfully aware that this feeling is not all that uncommon in bf circles and I've been part of this community for a long time and I guess didn't want to lose it. But now I feel similar to chefhottie in finding a place in it and for me, and my own concerns about being accepted and so I've avoided like the plague expressing I'm not butch a noun. I would hope it wouldn't make a difference, but I also live in the real world.
Unfortunately my hand is forced here... as whether intended or not posts such as yours can create mis-information and judgments toward non-butch GQ, boi's, tomboys etc. etc. etc. and make it seem unwelcoming here.

But ironically I'm glad you said it, because come what may it's something that's been weighing on me for a long time.

It's not a threat to butch femme culture, it's simply a different "culture", other queer masculine female bodied cousins just being out and proud too. I don't know why we all can't just support each other without it always being seen as some kind of affront.

Metropolis

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Thanks Atlast, in the end we are just who we are eh. If we find ourselves here, we're here for a reason.

I may not identify as a butch, but I have and do identify with butch on many fronts, like I said cousins. I'm still a "masculine" female gender bender (no that's not my "ID") and femmes are still the yin to my yang.

I think the personal connections that brought us all here, no matter the personal feeling of identity, is where the "community" of it all comes from, and not in that we all ID the same. And just because finding that "place of harmony" doesn't always land us in the same place, doesn't mean we don't travel a lot of the roads together.

I'm not going to derail any further except to say I have no doubt about the inclusiveness the Jack and Medusa intend for this space, I know their good intentions personally and have faith in that.

Ok, I have a date with mo' coffee...
Metropolis

Hey there, Met. I am wondering if you are willing to share how it is that you do ID at this point?

Or is your point that you don't ID in any way at this point?

Please hear this question as coming from a place of desiring to learn the different ways that masculine folks identify and not an attempt to pigeonhole you (and also know that it comes from a place of support for however you do see yourself!).

[Jett]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hey there, Met. I am wondering if you are willing to share how it is that you do ID at this point?

Or is your point that you don't ID in any way at this point?

Please hear this question as coming from a place of desiring to learn the different ways that masculine folks identify and not an attempt to pigeonhole you (and also know that it comes from a place of support for however you do see yourself!).

I'm queer, more specifically dyke, I'm a full grown motorcycle lovin' hardcore tomboy artist who is a female. A she that looks like a he that looks like a she... daddy's little ambiguity. I'm fluid and depending what light you see me in I can be handsome or beautiful. But above all else I'm a woman, a daughter, a sister, a friend, a lover, human and fallible.

I'm not trying to be dramatic or complicated... quite the opposite, it's that simple.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I'm queer, more specifically dyke, I'm a full grown motorcycle lovin' hardcore tomboy artist who is a female. A she that looks like a he that looks like a she... daddy's little ambiguity. I'm fluid and depending what light you see me in I can be handsome or beautiful. But above all else I'm a woman, a daughter, a sister, a friend, a lover, human and fallible.

I'm not trying to be dramatic or complicated... quite the opposite, it's that simple.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I'm queer, more specifically dyke, I'm a full grown motorcycle lovin' hardcore tomboy artist who is a female. A she that looks like a he that looks like a she... daddy's little ambiguity. I'm fluid and depending what light you see me in I can be handsome or beautiful. But above all else I'm a woman, a daughter, a sister, a friend, a lover, human and fallible.

I'm not trying to be dramatic or complicated... quite the opposite, it's that simple.

LOVE this! Thanks for sharing!

[Stacy]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I'm queer, more specifically dyke, I'm a full grown motorcycle lovin' hardcore tomboy artist who is a female. A she that looks like a he that looks like a she... daddy's little ambiguity. I'm fluid and depending what light you see me in I can be handsome or beautiful. But above all else I'm a woman, a daughter, a sister, a friend, a lover, human and fallible.

I'm not trying to be dramatic or complicated... quite the opposite, it's that simple.

I love this!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Thanks Atlast, in the end we are just who we are eh. If we find ourselves here, we're here for a reason.

I may not identify as a butch, but I have and do identify with butch on many fronts, like I said cousins. I'm still a "masculine" female gender bender (no that's not my "ID") and femmes are still the yin to my yang.

I think the personal connections that brought us all here, no matter the personal feeling of identity, is where the "community" of it all comes from, and not in that we all ID the same. And just because finding that "place of harmony" doesn't always land us in the same place, doesn't mean we don't travel a lot of the roads together.

I'm not going to derail any further except to say I have no doubt about the inclusiveness the Jack and Medusa intend for this space, I know their good intentions personally and have faith in that.

Ok, I have a date with mo' coffee...
Metropolis

Yeppers... very much a community based journey for me. Also, what Thinker brings up about the concept of butch in this all rings true. And I have been really fortunate in meeting and getting to know quite of few here on the same road and have landed at different intersections and our harmony is better than any barber shop quartet! Never off-key, just a different tempo at times.