"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Selenay

It's very interesting that when I come in as a 20 year old and discuss my experiences, and comment that, butch/femme is dead or dying in the community that I'm part of, I'm railroaded.

It never fails to amuse me when my experiences, opinions and beliefs are dismissed automatically because, "Oh, well, you're too young to understand. When you're older/wiser/have more lovers under your belt you'll see things sooooo differently."


Usually I can swallow that kind of dismissive behavior, but it's particularly offensive when it's occurring in a thread that holds such relevance to me, as the next generation of b/f.

I don't think I (or my generation) invented sex, or drugs, or queer, or war, or hate, but I am aware enough to be cognizant that a dramatic shift is going on and we can stick our heads in the sand or we can discuss where we think it's going.

Butch/femme will never be gone; it'll always be out there in some new incarnation, but take a look for a second at the demographics of the butch-femme websites as an example.

What do YOU think the median age is? When you can name off butch/femme people in their 20's without having to pause and think about it, that's when you'll see the same kind of demographic equality that you have for other age groups, and that's when you'll be certain that b/f will never be gone.

Sel, I am sorry you feel railroaded.

I went digging around the interwebz for more info and indeed you are speaking a valid point. I thank you for that.

Again, you are correct about the median age on most of the b/f sites I have been too. I wish we had MORE young people and to do so means listening to you all with respect. I respect you immensely.

Thank you a million times for coming back and posting when it is uncomfortable.

[Medusa]

Mad love!

Im curious as to what you think here, Selly. Do you see the disappearance (relevance) of the terminology "Butch" and "Femme", or is it more a disappearance of the culture?

Is it an access issue? An exposure issue? Is it that younger folks are trying to carve out something that feels better to them?

Im 33 myself. When I first came out I remember having a "culture shock" within the context of B/F because I had been exposed to Lesbians who totally dismissed what they viewed as rigid adherence to gender conformity and hegemonic idealism...and here I was suddenly immersed and surrounded with folks who embraced the dynamic.
I will also admit to feeling a little turned off at first with what I felt like was a lot of posturing to be the "most" Femme or the "most" Butch. A distinct hierarchy, if you will.

I also fully recognize that my "Femme" definitely isnt the same as it was 13 years ago. She is looking a lot less like Betty Crocker and a lot more like a cross between the Bride of Chuckie and my (favorite) archetype "Medusa" (hence the screen name).

Didnt mean to hijack here and turn it inward, but Selly has me thinking. (thats never a bad thing)

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Mad love!

Im curious as to what you think here, Selly. Do you see the disappearance (relevance) of the terminology "Butch" and "Femme", or is it more a disappearance of the culture?

Is it an access issue? An exposure issue? Is it that younger folks are trying to carve out something that feels better to them?

Im 33 myself. When I first came out I remember having a "culture shock" within the context of B/F because I had been exposed to Lesbians who totally dismissed what they viewed as rigid adherence to gender conformity and hegemonic idealism...and here I was suddenly immersed and surrounded with folks who embraced the dynamic.
I will also admit to feeling a little turned off at first with what I felt like was a lot of posturing to be the "most" Femme or the "most" Butch. A distinct hierarchy, if you will.

I also fully recognize that my "Femme" definitely isnt the same as it was 13 years ago. She is looking a lot less like Betty Crocker and a lot more like a cross between the Bride of Chuckie and my (favorite) archetype "Medusa" (hence the screen name).

Didnt mean to hijack here and turn it inward, but Selly has me thinking. (thats never a bad thing)

Great post!

Cynthia says when I am mad I am Chuckie.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

Is part of the reason that the younger generation does not identify with these terms because they don't have someone to lead the way for them, specifically (as in a close elder friend)? Or because as a society we are delving deeper into what gender/gender identity looks like? Or really because of the general evolution of human/sexuality/identities?

These are just thoughts for the moment... forgive the rawness...

Originally Posted by PapaC

The only 'real time' community off the internet where there is an abundance of butches and femmes that I've ever participated in is in San Francisco. Who do we have to thank for that? Community organizers. (nodding in Toughy's direction)... I know there's a lot happening in NY as well. How? oh yeah... *community organizers*

But apart from pockets of online communities and some real time community organizers in large urban areas, is "Butch" and "Femme" known or used terms? Frankly folks, I don't think I've *ever* lived (and lived as queer) where Butch and Femme were actually "popular" terms.

They are however, I believe: timeless

Originally Posted by Medusa

Mad love!

Im curious as to what you think here, Selly. Do you see the disappearance (relevance) of the terminology "Butch" and "Femme", or is it more a disappearance of the culture?

Is it an access issue? An exposure issue? Is it that younger folks are trying to carve out something that feels better to them?

Didnt mean to hijack here and turn it inward, but Selly has me thinking. (thats never a bad thing)

I think we are all kind of talking about the same thing... and I really dig the discussion (do people still say "dig"? :>). I also love hearing from the younger folks (ok sometimes that feels weird to say because I still think of myself as young...) yes, Selly...you, please talk more!!! I am learning still, everyday, and while I feel somewhat sad that maybe the terms butch and femme are less used and maybe even considered outdated by some, I am encouraged by the progression we have made in terms of acceptance in the queer culture to include so much fluidity.

[BullDog]

I am no expert on how the younger generation are iding, but I see a lot of truth in what ToppDyke says. Genderqueer seems to dominate a lot of online stuff that I see, and certainly it's a term that a lot of people resonate with- which is totally cool. But there are whole other worlds out there, whole other communities out there-both online and real time- Stud and Butch identities- as an example- that are quite a bit removed from what dominates the airwaves on the major Butch Femme sites.

Just this morning I was doing some searches on Studs, because the voices of some of the younger Studs that I read and listen to in videos really do resonate with me even though I am a 47 year old white butch. There are some really great voices out there- very savvy, very aware, who incorporate masculinity within a woman-centric, community based framework- at least that is my take on it. I am loving what I am finding. Not seeing much of it at butch femme sites.