"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Selenay

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.

Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . . I'll make sure I include on that survey "Stonewall" to find out who actually knows what stonewall is, what its significance was, and if they've been there.

For me, this is a much larger conversation than just the question of outdated or antiquated terms, but more the history and evolution of queer identity.

First, I do agree with Selly in that many young folks I come across (yes, I know I am 36 - youngish - but I know a fair amount of folks in their early 20's) use different terms; genderqueer, trans, fag, genderless... and use them in ways that may mean different things to me or others before me. I don't know that I or they would use the term, dead. But I hear less "butch" and "femme" in the ways I know them when I am around said folks.

For instance, there are several young people I know who were born female and most times appear more masculine, but definitely embrace both the feminine and masculine parts of them...and self identify as trans or fag. We have discussed the terms "butch" and "femme" and they know them, but look at them in more of a historical perspective (and some because I use them and friends in my age group use them). They are less inclined to label themselves, want to be more fluid. This leads me to my next point, which is the evolution.

Several months ago, a bunch of friends had a very deep discussion about the "elder" population of butches. There was alot of talk about the younger population not having access to or somehow missing a connection to have a mentor-like relationship from an "elder" butch. As if there was resistance to it? Disinterest? Or a lacking population? Disconnect? These are words we tossed around, not necessarily ones I chose.

Is part of the reason that the younger generation does not identify with these terms because they don't have someone to lead the way for them, specifically (as in a close elder friend)? Or because as a society we are delving deeper into what gender/gender identity looks like? Or really because of the general evolution of human/sexuality/identities?

These are just thoughts for the moment... forgive the rawness...

[PapaC]

I think Selly's original post and SassyLeo's post are both on point.

I've noticed this trend in Canada as well. But then, I'm of the opinion that "butch" and "femme" have *never* been terms that have been popular in the real-time queer connections that I've had over the years, and my travels and living situations have spanned across Canada in 3 major regional areas and of course, San Francisco.

The only 'real time' community off the internet where there is an abundance of butches and femmes that I've ever participated in is in San Francisco. Who do we have to thank for that? Community organizers. (nodding in Toughy's direction)... I know there's a lot happening in NY as well. How? oh yeah... *community organizers*

But apart from pockets of online communities and some real time community organizers in large urban areas, is "Butch" and "Femme" known or used terms? Frankly folks, I don't think I've *ever* lived (and lived as queer) where Butch and Femme were actually "popular" terms.

They are however, I believe: timeless

A 20-something transman when I asked his observations about the youth culture, he acknowledged that many many MANY have just sorta honed in on 'genderqueer' or 'queer' (he almost made it sound the same - should note that).... and he laughingly said.. "it kinda poses an interesting dilemma for t-guys"

it just might.

And call me crazy, but a part of me looks at "genderqueer" and thinks "oh, that's kinda like being andro" ....only 'cooler' ... more 'updated'

words words words words...

I dunno, I'm tired. when I get fed up with nomenclature discussion, I just sometimes sit back and think "now, how would I explain THAT to my relatives in Europe?"

Another question I have... did every 'lesbian' call themselves a 'lesbian' from the dawning of the english language?

By all accounts, if you look at the fact that the english language is what.... 1000 years old (give or take), for the last 1000 years, have we been hearing the term 'lesbian' to describe two women in love?

From where I'm sitting, seems to me if we look at it that way, "lesbian" as a term is brand spanking new...

just some thoughts.

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

For me, this is a much larger conversation than just the question of outdated or antiquated terms, but more the history and evolution of queer identity.

First, I do agree with Selly in that many young folks I come across (yes, I know I am 36 - youngish - but I know a fair amount of folks in their early 20's) use different terms; genderqueer, trans, fag, genderless... and use them in ways that may mean different things to me or others before me. I don't know that I or they would use the term, dead. But I hear less "butch" and "femme" in the ways I know them when I am around said folks.

For instance, there are several young people I know who were born female and most times appear more masculine, but definitely embrace both the feminine and masculine parts of them...and self identify as trans or fag. We have discussed the terms "butch" and "femme" and they know them, but look at them in more of a historical perspective (and some because I use them and friends in my age group use them). They are less inclined to label themselves, want to be more fluid. This leads me to my next point, which is the evolution.

Several months ago, a bunch of friends had a very deep discussion about the "elder" population of butches. There was alot of talk about the younger population not having access to or somehow missing a connection to have a mentor-like relationship from an "elder" butch. As if there was resistance to it? Disinterest? Or a lacking population? Disconnect? These are words we tossed around, not necessarily ones I chose.

Is part of the reason that the younger generation does not identify with these terms because they don't have someone to lead the way for them, specifically (as in a close elder friend)? Or because as a society we are delving deeper into what gender/gender identity looks like? Or really because of the general evolution of human/sexuality/identities?

These are just thoughts for the moment... forgive the rawness...

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

For me, this is a much larger conversation than just the question of outdated or antiquated terms, but more the history and evolution of queer identity.

First, I do agree with Selly in that many young folks I come across (yes, I know I am 36 - youngish - but I know a fair amount of folks in their early 20's) use different terms; genderqueer, trans, fag, genderless... and use them in ways that may mean different things to me or others before me. I don't know that I or they would use the term, dead. But I hear less "butch" and "femme" in the ways I know them when I am around said folks.

For instance, there are several young people I know who were born female and most times appear more masculine, but definitely embrace both the feminine and masculine parts of them...and self identify as trans or fag. We have discussed the terms "butch" and "femme" and they know them, but look at them in more of a historical perspective (and some because I use them and friends in my age group use them). They are less inclined to label themselves, want to be more fluid. This leads me to my next point, which is the evolution.

Several months ago, a bunch of friends had a very deep discussion about the "elder" population of butches. There was alot of talk about the younger population not having access to or somehow missing a connection to have a mentor-like relationship from an "elder" butch. As if there was resistance to it? Disinterest? Or a lacking population? Disconnect? These are words we tossed around, not necessarily ones I chose.

Is part of the reason that the younger generation does not identify with these terms because they don't have someone to lead the way for them, specifically (as in a close elder friend)? Or because as a society we are delving deeper into what gender/gender identity looks like? Or really because of the general evolution of human/sexuality/identities?

These are just thoughts for the moment... forgive the rawness...

It took me longer to get to where I wanted to be with my identity. I had no butch mentor. I didn't feel fluid. I felt quite isolated from how my circle of friends were. They mostly identified as lesbian, tweener, androgynous, gender neutral, and on. At the time, the only butch-femme dynamic that was visible to me were the rarely seen older couple. I wondered then if I was outdated before I had a chance to discover myself and 'be'.

I have thought more on Selenay's post and with the help of others that have done a better job of listening and responding to it, I think I grasp what she is saying. Out of curiosity, I would like to see where the generational evolution of human/sexuality/identities flows to. I think what is now called butch-femme will still navigate it's own river. Just as strong as it was and is.

Kosmo

[NotAnAverageGuy]

I will prolly get some flack for this but why is there such an uproar over terms, labels, etc?

Maybe I just see it as it to me, words that describe who we are.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by NotAnAverageGuy

I will prolly get some flack for this but why is there such an uproar over terms, labels, etc?

Maybe I just see it as it to me, words that describe who we are.

For some it's important. Whether it's just a preference or whether it's a way to self-describe. I don't think it's as much of an "uproar" as much as a desire to understand different points of view.

To all: I am curious that butch and the variants thereof are so many but femme is only one (although girl/babygirl and trans-sensual femme are other terms I've seen to describe but I don't know that they have the same idea or are from the same concept as femme (??) )

So what would be a "modern" term for femme?

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Good point uproar might not have been the best word to use, but I understand where you are coming from as well

I too as Linus asked would like to hear the concepts for the femme term

[Unndunn]

I think it's interesting that there aren't many new terms being used in place of "femme." My guess is that it is related to two things, the first being femme invisibility. A lot of femmes aren't easy to differentiate from straight women. (please God help me to word this in the most femme-positive, supportive and affirming way possible...you know angry femmes scare me) I think there might be less of a need perceived to give them another label or descriptor besides feminine, femme, lady, woman, etc. I could be completely wrong, it's just a thought.

As for "butch" having more changes, I wonder if it is partly due to the way butch is often used as a negative, almost like a dirty word. Outside of this limited online world of butchfemmeplanet and other butch-femme sites being "too butch" can be a real problem. A quick scroll through the dating sites online will show ad after ad that says "no butches." It occurs in real time too. Butches stand out, it's hard to miss them.

I'm getting tired and it's probably a good time to just hit send rather than share all of my other hair-brained theories (I've got tons of them on every subject).

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by Unndunn

I think it's interesting that there aren't many new terms being used in place of "femme." My guess is that it is related to two things, the first being femme invisibility. A lot of femmes aren't easy to differentiate from straight women. (please God help me to word this in the most femme-positive, supportive and affirming way possible...you know angry femmes scare me) I think there might be less of a need perceived to give them another label or descriptor besides feminine, femme, lady, woman, etc. I could be completely wrong, it's just a thought.

As for "butch" having more changes, I wonder if it is partly due to the way butch is often used as a negative, almost like a dirty word. Outside of this limited online world of butchfemmeplanet and other butch-femme sites being "too butch" can be a real problem. A quick scroll through the dating sites online will show ad after ad that says "no butches." It occurs in real time too. Butches stand out, it's hard to miss them.

I'm getting tired and it's probably a good time to just hit send rather than share all of my other hair-brained theories (I've got tons of them on every subject).

Your take on 'butch' brought back some memories. In the early 90's I didn't have a personal computer so I would grab the local gay newspaper and browse the personals. I could count on one hand how many times I saw femme looking for butch (usually one or two and usually seeking soft butch). Never was sure what that meant. Anyway, it was usually: femme seeking femme or specific in 'no butches please', so I knew we were out there. So what was wrong with us?

I always came away feeling less than after reading those personals. I just didn't think I would find anyone that was my compliment. Then one time I saw one, femme seeks butch. I found her! The only femme seeking butch in the world! lol. Then I thought, great, there's gonna be at least 100 butches practicing their best introduction message (yep, I was one of them, *chuckles*). Seems like a lifetime ago.

Just for curiosity sake, I went online to the same newspaper and into their personals section. Wasn't much there; only 7 (more online communities now).

None looking for butch, but 3 were butch: 2 soft butch and 1 'more tomboy' than butch. 2 of them were seeking femme. I wonder how it is in different parts of the country. I'll have to take a look at some of those online services to see how the descriptives are used.

It makes for an interesting social study

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by Linus

For some it's important. Whether it's just a preference or whether it's a way to self-describe. I don't think it's as much of an "uproar" as much as a desire to understand different points of view.

To all: I am curious that butch and the variants thereof are so many but femme is only one (although girl/babygirl and trans-sensual femme are other terms I've seen to describe but I don't know that they have the same idea or are from the same concept as femme (??) )

So what would be a "modern" term for femme?

Linus,

Is there a list of all the variants of butch that you mention? I can google it and come up with: stone, hard, soft, TG. Would that include dyke, bulldyke?

Never thought about it, just curious as to how many there are and I also wonder if some of them would still have the same idea or are from the same concept as butch. I know femme, stone femme, high femme, lipstick lesbian (this last one may be more aligned with bulldyke).

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Linus,

Is there a list of all the variants of butch that you mention? I can google it and come up with: stone, hard, soft, TG. Would that include dyke, bulldyke?

Never thought about it, just curious as to how many there are and I also wonder if some of them would still have the same idea or are from the same concept as butch. I know femme, stone femme, high femme, lipstick lesbian (this last one may be more aligned with bulldyke).

Stud and Aggressive are the other "butch" variants I thought. A few others were also mentioned in the thread.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by Linus

Stud and Aggressive are the other "butch" variants I thought. A few others were also mentioned in the thread.

Thanks Linus,

I'll have to search the thread to find them all. I've never heard of Aggressive, but I don't get out much, lol.

[Jess]

This topic has had me doing a good deal of reading again. This is a link to an exciting project that tells me the dynamic is still alive and well and embracing folks of all ages.

http://www.apersistentdesire.com/index.html