The Femme Continuum: The "Highs" and "Lows" of Visibility

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Linus

What femme lesbians existed back then? How would you know? (and I'm thinking mainstream media models -- IIRC, this was for a fashion magazine)

I think that was one of the prime examples of femmes being invisible (I know Crawford -- or at least I believe she isn't -- gay but how would we know?).

What mainstream media models of femme exist NOW for that matter?

[Linus]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

What mainstream media models of femme exist NOW for that matter?

True. If they are there, we don't know or they choose to keep quiet.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Linus

True. If they are there, we don't know or they choose to keep quiet.

I can't think of any. Not that I don't sometimes want to label somebody, like say...Portia Derossi and Ellen. The thing is, they haven't mentioned it and though I'd love it, it's not so. The very FACT that I want to label them a cute Butch Femme couple is wrong. I think it comes from desperately wanting role models and people "like me" in my every day media.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I can't think of any. Not that I don't sometimes want to label somebody, like say...Portia Derossi and Ellen. The thing is, they haven't mentioned it and though I'd love it, it's not so. The very FACT that I want to label them a cute Butch Femme couple is wrong. I think it comes from desperately wanting role models and people "like me" in my every day media.

I don't think that's wrong. I know that Kirsten Vangsness is gay and for some reason struck me as femme but not sure why. (I don't believe she's in a B-F relationship however). I think the media is stuck on the idea that a femme is a non-existent being (being lesbian and being feminine is not allowed as far as the MSM is concerned -- unless it's pr0n.)

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by June

I don't care for the way "we" are censored due to language or perceived lack of decorum by other members of our community. As though we were not ladylike enough, or genteel enough.

I want to have strong opinions, strong language and strong emotions without someone shaking their goddamn finger at me and trying to shame me into hushing. I want people to stop acting like they're my "Daddy" just because I am a Femme. I want us to be able to fuck whomever we want, whenever we want and not be called Whores or Sluts and have our morals called into question*.

I want us to stop apologizing because we pass as straight much of the time. It is what it is, and we have nothing to explain or apologize for.



*June isn't allowed to date

There is a person I have met on several occasions, who lives in the area. She identifies as a top/daddy type. The first time I met her, I walked into a gay bar where I was meeting others...she immediately bombarded me a VERY assertive schpeel... -was I new in town-, -where was I from-, -am I kinky-, etc. Upon further conversation, she asked me if I had gotten involved in the local BDSM scene. At the time, I had been to a few meet-ups and networked a bit... but wasn't really "in" it. She proceeded to try to "top" me... and I don't mean in a physical sense, but energetically and verbally. I don't even know if I could explain it, but I could just feel it, almost like a predator. She gave me her business card and said if I "really wanted to get connected to the "right" scene, to call her. The other groups in town were a "mess", "too soft" etc. She asked for my info and I said, "Look, I'm not a bottom and I do not give out my number." She gave me a shocked look and said, "Well, keep my card, you'll change your mind" and winked at me.

Now I realize we are all not like this... (Looking at Snowy )

I am femme. Probably considered very femme, by appearances. It pisses me off that there is a stereotype attached to us, that we are all bottoms/subs, etc. I can be whatever the fuck I want.

In the world we all make assumptions about people, everyday. I wish that in my OWN community this didn't happen... but I don't know if that is possible.

[Medusa]

I'd like to explore how Femme Top energy isn't always in a masculine or "Daddy" form.

But yes, Femme often equals "fuckee" in a lot of people's minds. Even when it does, I don't think it should equal "less than".

[Pretty Woman]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I can't think of any. Not that I don't sometimes want to label somebody, like say...Portia Derossi and Ellen. The thing is, they haven't mentioned it and though I'd love it, it's not so. The very FACT that I want to label them a cute Butch Femme couple is wrong. I think it comes from desperately wanting role models and people "like me" in my every day media.

But Portia Derossi isn't femme! She is a straight chick that was looking for a publicity boost! But did anyone see the Cynthia Nixon interview last week where she referred to her butch fiancee as 'a man with boobs'? Honestly, I was offended as it struck me as apologetically homophobic!

Originally Posted by Linus

I don't think that's wrong. I know that Kirsten Vangsness is gay and for some reason struck me as femme but not sure why. (I don't believe she's in a B-F relationship however). I think the media is stuck on the idea that a femme is a non-existent being (being lesbian and being feminine is not allowed as far as the MSM is concerned -- unless it's pr0n.)

I couldn't disagree more. I often feel that the only 'acceptables' are femmes...the straighter looking the better. And that butches only get noticed by the MSM when the media wants us for a freak show. Sort of analogous to when the local news only shows the Radical Fairies at gay pride.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I've no clue if Portia is a Femme, or uses that gender identity, I believe though she has been dating women since 04 how long do we hold on to the straight chick label before we are ok'd to be gay, queer etc?

[SuperFemme]

From the Advocate interview:

"Christine would probably kill me for saying this, but my daughter said one time that if you really had to break this down, [it looks like] she would be butch and I would be femme…but really once you get to know us it’s really the opposite.”

Does this out them as a Butch-Femme couple? Or not? Curious.

[Semantics]

Originally Posted by Mrs. Strutt

And I would like others in our very own community to stop looking right through us when they meet us on the street in automatic assumption we are straight.

I'm never recognized as queer unless I'm on the arm of a butch. It's kind of a drag for a single person.

Short of wearing a rainbow jumpsuit I'm not sure what to do about it.

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

[COLOR="Blue"]But Portia Derossi isn't femme! She is a straight chick that was looking for a publicity boost!

Oh. Do you know her?

She's married to a woman. I don't really know how either she or her wife identify but I think it's unkind to reduce a couple's relationship to a "publicity boost".

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

But Portia Derossi isn't femme! She is a straight chick that was looking for a publicity boost! But did anyone see the Cynthia Nixon interview last week where she referred to her butch fiancee as 'a man with boobs'? Honestly, I was offended as it struck me as apologetically homophobic!

I couldn't disagree more. I often feel that the only 'acceptables' are femmes...the straighter looking the better. And that butches only get noticed by the MSM when the media wants us for a freak show. Sort of analogous to when the local news only shows the Radical Fairies at gay pride.

But do they see them as femmes or feminine lesbians??

[Apocalipstic]

Do we know Portia? How do we know she is straight? I mean, she had a pretty great career before Ellen being in Ally McBeal, and had a G/F even back then.

Isn't this what we are talking about? How unless we look Butch people think we are straight women? Taking Butches away from 'real" Lesbians.

I had other things to say, but this stopped me in my tracks.

UGH.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Semantics

I'm never recognized as queer unless I'm on the arm of a butch. It's kind of a drag for a single person.

Short of wearing a rainbow jumpsuit I'm not sure what to do about it.

.

Hi Semantics!!

My experience has been that if you get to know me as a femme, person or in an intimate relationship, you are gonna know I am queer. My language, ideals, politics, religion, sex, I know for *me* once you start a conversation it sounds nothing like that of a straight woman. Make sense?

[Pretty Woman]

Originally Posted by Semantics

Oh. Do you know her?

She's married to a woman. I don't really know how either she or her wife identify but I think it's unkind to reduce a couple's relationship to a "publicity boost".

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I've no clue if Portia is a Femme, or uses that gender identity, I believe though she has been dating women since 04 how long do we hold on to the straight chick label before we are ok'd to be gay, queer etc?

To both, I do know (of) her in the one degree of separation kind of way. Do either of you?

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

But Portia Derossi isn't femme! She is a straight chick that was looking for a publicity boost!

I cannot tell if you are being glib? Because I don't believe that at all. Are you sure you don't mean Anne Heche?

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

But did anyone see the Cynthia Nixon interview last week where she referred to her butch fiancee as 'a man with boobs'? Honestly, I was offended as it struck me as apologetically homophobic!

Uh, yes. There is a whole thread about that here: http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...ead.php?t=1357

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

I couldn't disagree more. I often feel that the only 'acceptables' are femmes...the straighter looking the better. And that butches only get noticed by the MSM when the media wants us for a freak show. Sort of analogous to when the local news only shows the Radical Fairies at gay pride.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

To both, I do know (of) her in the one degree of separation kind of way. Do either of you?

How come she had girlfriends before Ellen?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

To both, I do know (of) her in the one degree of separation kind of way. Do either of you?

No, I have no friends who know of her, know her, so no I don't know her enough to say if she is Femme, straight, or if she is out to trick the world with her wiley straight ways and pretend she is gay.

I am clueless... I just figured she was married to Ellen, dated some singer in 04 who happened to be a woman, made her a lil on the gay side of the spectrum.

I am wrong, I guess?

[SuperFemme]

I'm not willing to denounce any Queer's membership to Queerdom, especially when they've come out in Hollywood. I wish MORE people in the entertainment industry would be out...I really do.

[Semantics]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Hi Semantics!!

My experience has been that if you get to know me as a femme, person or in an intimate relationship, you are gonna know I am queer. My language, ideals, politics, religion, sex, I know for *me* once you start a conversation it sounds nothing like that of a straight woman. Make sense?

Yes. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

To both, I do know (of) her in the one degree of separation kind of way. Do either of you?

I think that we step onto dangerous ground when we belittle queer relationships as publicity stunts/ not real. This is already done to us by society and I dislike seeing it in our community.

If you know them personally and want to spead that around, go right ahead.

[SuperFemme]

Sorry, I didn't mean to derail. It was a bad example...regarding representation in mainstream media.