The Femme Continuum: The "Highs" and "Lows" of Visibility

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Medusa

How does this continuum affect our visibility or does it?

Im thinking about how all of these things might affect our visibility as Femmes and how much we do/should care if we are invisible to the outside world. Do you think it is important for people to see you as Femme? Do you feel seen as a Femme in this community?

I hope you will forgive my snips Medusa

I came back to add to this thread because the whole concept of femme invisibility has been in my head lately in a very personal way, relating mostly to how incredibly freaking long it took for me to figure out who I am, and why I walked around feeling emotionally unplugged for a good chunk of my life.

When I first discovered the whole butch-femme dynamic, I felt like I had simply come home. All of a sudden, the emotional side of me that had been disconnected so long got plugged back in.

The next thing that happened was that I started blaming and berating myself for being so incredibly stupid for so long. I am 48 years old, have been married to bio-men 3 times, and didn't figure this out until my early 40s. I don't hate men, although I confess I don't trust them much for reasons relating to my own life experiences...so why would I have had so many het relationships? Why would I have married 3 times, trying to find the one man who could make me feel what others were apparently feeling in their relationships? Why did I feel like my personal theme song for so many years was "Is that all there is?" I just didn't really FEEL anything... and was going through the motions in hope that something would somehow magically connect. It didn't...hence the 3 divorces too.

So then...this conversation about femme invisibility...conversations and posts on this site and (previously) the dash site...and memories started to come up for me.

I am not attracted to feminine women...I may like, love or admire them, but I'm not attracted. I am attracted to butch women. I always have been.

However, I am also a child of the 70s and 80s...and every lesbian I met in that time...through my teens, in college....all of them were very much andro. I tended to be attracted to those on the most butch end of that spectrum...and I was completely invisible to them. I have stopped beating myself up for that, at last, as I remember more and more the dynamics of that period of my life.

I went to gay student union meetings in college in the late 70s and early 80s...mostly gay men, but even the few lesbians that were there looked at me like I was in the wrong room. I am inherently fairly shy...and probably left skid marks leaving the room.

I remember going up to San Francisco frequently for the weekend in the early 80s...going to Amelia's when it was still newly open...seeing so many lesbian women and having this chant in my head "why don't they see me? why won't they talk to me?" Again...shy...and left.

Meanwhile...men in my universe wanted my time, attention, sex, whatever...and socialized the way I was (narcissistic family, long story)...I capitulated to that. As if, somehow, those outside myself...the lesbians who didn't see me, and the men who pursued me...knew better than I did who I was.

In hindsight....I wish I had been braver. I wish I had spoken up. I wish I had questioned and learned more to find out where all of these wonderful butches were hanging out. I wish I had found a magnificent femme mentor to take me by the hand and say "this is how we do it baby." I wish I had gotten a pink tank top and bedazzled "Top this!" on the front....something....

But the truth is....we don't know what we don't know. I didn't know butch-femme existed. I didn't have any model for who I am. I just knew that I didn't fit the mold even if it looked like I did on the outside.

So...long way to say it...but yes, I wish I had been seen as femme by the outside world. I wish I had been seen as femme by myself. It's important...
And yes, I do feel seen as femme by this community. And, most importantly, by Scoote...who I love dearly

And that's why I'm no longer singing this...

[Medusa]

Jo, thanks for telling your story!

There are quite a few Femmes (and Butches and Transmen) on these boards who came out later in life and/or who have been married once or several times. There are a lot of Femmes (and Butches and Transmen) who have slept with men and have children. None of this negates who you are now or who you were then

I had many of the same kinds of feelings when I first discovered the Butch/Femme dynamic. Kinda like a "Wow, I cant believe I missed this.." or "Wow, why didnt I look for this sooner.." What you say about only knowing what we know rings so true.
If we dont have access to other Femmes, its HARD to recognize that within ourselves sometimes, much less NAME it for what it is.
Think of the images and stories that are most readily available in the media about Lesbians. How many Femmes can we all point out? How many Femmes could we have pointed out in the 70s and 80s?
My personal view? People have BEEN Femme for a long, long time but the recognition and ownership of Femme is fairly new in the dyke world.

I would venture that most of us need some kind of touchstone to spark that recognition within ourselves. Something that tells us that we aren't just a "freak" or "a straight girl who has a kink for Butch women" or insert any other number of identifiers.

Im glad we have this space and each other to do that. Each of our ways of being Femme are correct and valid, and I love hearing about how other people have found their Femme and how they "do" it, even when it is very different than mine or anything I have ever seen.

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I hope you will forgive my snips Medusa

I came back to add to this thread because the whole concept of femme invisibility has been in my head lately in a very personal way, relating mostly to how incredibly freaking long it took for me to figure out who I am, and why I walked around feeling emotionally unplugged for a good chunk of my life.

When I first discovered the whole butch-femme dynamic, I felt like I had simply come home. All of a sudden, the emotional side of me that had been disconnected so long got plugged back in.

The next thing that happened was that I started blaming and berating myself for being so incredibly stupid for so long. I am 48 years old, have been married to bio-men 3 times, and didn't figure this out until my early 40s. I don't hate men, although I confess I don't trust them much for reasons relating to my own life experiences...so why would I have had so many het relationships? Why would I have married 3 times, trying to find the one man who could make me feel what others were apparently feeling in their relationships? Why did I feel like my personal theme song for so many years was "Is that all there is?" I just didn't really FEEL anything... and was going through the motions in hope that something would somehow magically connect. It didn't...hence the 3 divorces too.

So then...this conversation about femme invisibility...conversations and posts on this site and (previously) the dash site...and memories started to come up for me.

I am not attracted to feminine women...I may like, love or admire them, but I'm not attracted. I am attracted to butch women. I always have been.

However, I am also a child of the 70s and 80s...and every lesbian I met in that time...through my teens, in college....all of them were very much andro. I tended to be attracted to those on the most butch end of that spectrum...and I was completely invisible to them. I have stopped beating myself up for that, at last, as I remember more and more the dynamics of that period of my life.

I went to gay student union meetings in college in the late 70s and early 80s...mostly gay men, but even the few lesbians that were there looked at me like I was in the wrong room. I am inherently fairly shy...and probably left skid marks leaving the room.

I remember going up to San Francisco frequently for the weekend in the early 80s...going to Amelia's when it was still newly open...seeing so many lesbian women and having this chant in my head "why don't they see me? why won't they talk to me?" Again...shy...and left.

Meanwhile...men in my universe wanted my time, attention, sex, whatever...and socialized the way I was (narcissistic family, long story)...I capitulated to that. As if, somehow, those outside myself...the lesbians who didn't see me, and the men who pursued me...knew better than I did who I was.

In hindsight....I wish I had been braver. I wish I had spoken up. I wish I had questioned and learned more to find out where all of these wonderful butches were hanging out. I wish I had found a magnificent femme mentor to take me by the hand and say "this is how we do it baby." I wish I had gotten a pink tank top and bedazzled "Top this!" on the front....something....

But the truth is....we don't know what we don't know. I didn't know butch-femme existed. I didn't have any model for who I am. I just knew that I didn't fit the mold even if it looked like I did on the outside.

So...long way to say it...but yes, I wish I had been seen as femme by the outside world. I wish I had been seen as femme by myself. It's important...
And yes, I do feel seen as femme by this community. And, most importantly, by Scoote...who I love dearly

And that's why I'm no longer singing this...

We all have been shaped by our life experiences to get to the place where we are now in life. I wished I had known who & what I am much younger but it did not play out that way. My childhood shaped me & was not a positive one. I got married @ 18 to a bio man, had two daughters by the time I was 20. I was divorced by the time I was 25. My bi phase lasted a couple of years-even though in all that time I had only one orgasm with a man-trust issues. Another process to acknowledge to myself I was lesbian. Never thought about whether or not I was femme-it is just me. The invisibility of it in the world is difficult. Everyone knew who & what I was with my ex-she had the issues related to being called sir all the time but she dug it. She identified as stone butch for years (until she let me fuck her) then she was simply butch & I loved her masculine energy & presence & she
loved that I was femme. I did not realize honestly that there are levels of being femme until I found the planet. Bottom line-don't we just want to be accepted as the person we are? On the Planet I will try my best to accept everyone for who & what they are-period. I have never found such a large group of intelligent, thoughtful & articulate people; regardless of their identity. Sorry if I side-tracked
off the original question/responses.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I hope you will forgive my snips Medusa

I came back to add to this thread because the whole concept of femme invisibility has been in my head lately in a very personal way, relating mostly to how incredibly freaking long it took for me to figure out who I am, and why I walked around feeling emotionally unplugged for a good chunk of my life.

When I first discovered the whole butch-femme dynamic, I felt like I had simply come home. All of a sudden, the emotional side of me that had been disconnected so long got plugged back in.

The next thing that happened was that I started blaming and berating myself for being so incredibly stupid for so long. I am 48 years old, have been married to bio-men 3 times, and didn't figure this out until my early 40s. I don't hate men, although I confess I don't trust them much for reasons relating to my own life experiences...so why would I have had so many het relationships? Why would I have married 3 times, trying to find the one man who could make me feel what others were apparently feeling in their relationships? Why did I feel like my personal theme song for so many years was "Is that all there is?" I just didn't really FEEL anything... and was going through the motions in hope that something would somehow magically connect. It didn't...hence the 3 divorces too.

So then...this conversation about femme invisibility...conversations and posts on this site and (previously) the dash site...and memories started to come up for me.

I am not attracted to feminine women...I may like, love or admire them, but I'm not attracted. I am attracted to butch women. I always have been.

However, I am also a child of the 70s and 80s...and every lesbian I met in that time...through my teens, in college....all of them were very much andro. I tended to be attracted to those on the most butch end of that spectrum...and I was completely invisible to them. I have stopped beating myself up for that, at last, as I remember more and more the dynamics of that period of my life.

I went to gay student union meetings in college in the late 70s and early 80s...mostly gay men, but even the few lesbians that were there looked at me like I was in the wrong room. I am inherently fairly shy...and probably left skid marks leaving the room.

I remember going up to San Francisco frequently for the weekend in the early 80s...going to Amelia's when it was still newly open...seeing so many lesbian women and having this chant in my head "why don't they see me? why won't they talk to me?" Again...shy...and left.

Meanwhile...men in my universe wanted my time, attention, sex, whatever...and socialized the way I was (narcissistic family, long story)...I capitulated to that. As if, somehow, those outside myself...the lesbians who didn't see me, and the men who pursued me...knew better than I did who I was.

In hindsight....I wish I had been braver. I wish I had spoken up. I wish I had questioned and learned more to find out where all of these wonderful butches were hanging out. I wish I had found a magnificent femme mentor to take me by the hand and say "this is how we do it baby." I wish I had gotten a pink tank top and bedazzled "Top this!" on the front....something....

But the truth is....we don't know what we don't know. I didn't know butch-femme existed. I didn't have any model for who I am. I just knew that I didn't fit the mold even if it looked like I did on the outside.

So...long way to say it...but yes, I wish I had been seen as femme by the outside world. I wish I had been seen as femme by myself. It's important...
And yes, I do feel seen as femme by this community. And, most importantly, by Scoote...who I love dearly

And that's why I'm no longer singing this...

Jo I cannot even begin to tell you how much I appreciate you sharing this. It is my experience too. I remember so many times wishing that the lesbian world would come to me and take me away. I know that many lesbians I encountered thought of me as the worst of the bi-curious straight girls. I was so desperately trying to have someone see me and they never did.

I had never heard the word femme until I read Judith Butler. A light bulb went off in my head!! So THAT is what I am!!! It was and still is a revelation to me.