Loving a Transman Isn't Easy

[EnderD_503]

This article was actually posted in the Trans News thread: http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...?t=2287&page=6

Personally, I found it really offensive. It's one thing to express your emotions over your partners transition. It's another thing to make these sorts of really transphobic statement. And another brilliant example where the existence of transphobia in the world is almost mocked. Where even pointing out transphobia is turned around on the trans person who points it out, as if they are in the wrong for pointing out oppressive language. If someone calls me a "rah rah tranny person" I'm going to be fucking offended. In fact, if anyone calls me a "tranny" I'm going to be fucking offended, I don't care who you are.

I'll post my reply from that thread here:

While I do agree that partners should be heard when they voice their concerns over a partner transitioning, there are ways to say it without reducing the word transphobia to something that trans people throw at people at random and framing trans people who call out transphobia when they see it as the "bad guys" in the situation.

I definitely do see transphobia in comments like these:

I looked for support but found very little because partners don’t generally talk about the difficulties we face in transition. Nobody wants to be the one to say, “This fucking hurts,” lest we be judged by the politically fuelled who would label us transphobic.

The Rah-Rah Tranny people on the sidelines say we’re not supposed to grieve the loss of our soulmate to a new gender. We should a) keep it quiet and support the transgender person or b) leave the relationship or c) both.
This, to me, has nothing to do with dealing with your partner's transition and voicing your feelings. I'm really tired of getting this sort of attitude from some LGB folks where other people are entitled to say all sorts of things about trans people, and when trans people respond or even mention the word transphobia, then they're "overreacting/making a big deal out of nothing," "not being sensitive," "being selfish" or trying to "guilt" people into agreeing with them on something.

It actually reminds me a lot of straight people's reactions when queer folks call them out on homophobia. Or people who make sexist comments when they're called out on their sexism. Yet somehow when it comes to trans people, some queer folks can't see how their behaviour mirrors that of those who, in turn, oppress them.

What does "Rah-Rah Tranny people" (seriously, if you're trans and identify as a "tranny", that's cool, but a cis person using the word "tranny" to refer to trans people in general is offensive, in the same way as a white person using the "N" word or a straight person calling gay men "fags") even mean? Apparently they are "politically fueled"? Again, what does that mean? Cause to me a "politically fueled" trans person is someone who fights for their own rights in a society where they don't have equal rights with the rest of the LGB spectrum. In the country the author is from, for example...

Like I said above, I have no problems with partners going through their process of coming to understand or accept their partner. But I feel the author made some comments that were transphobic (zomg, I must be a "rah rah tranny person"). I understand the frustration if the community she is a part of tells her that it's not acceptable to voice her feelings and grief over her partner's transition. I don't think that's good of them to do at all, and it's not something I would support. On the other hand, I don't think she should be expressing her frustrations while make transphobic remarks. It's like justifying homophobia because you had a bad altercation with a queer person, or sexism because you had an altercation with someone of a certain sex. Neither is acceptable in my eyes, and I don't think trans people should have to put up with anymore than anyone else should have to put up with discriminatory comments.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

This article was actually posted in the Trans News thread: http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...?t=2287&page=6

Personally, I found it really offensive. It's one thing to express your emotions over your partners transition. It's another thing to make these sorts of really transphobic statement. And another brilliant example where the existence of transphobia in the world is almost mocked. Where even pointing out transphobia is turned around on the trans person who points it out, as if they are in the wrong for pointing out oppressive language. If someone calls me a "rah rah tranny person" I'm going to be fucking offended. In fact, if anyone calls me a "tranny" I'm going to be fucking offended, I don't care who you are.

I'll post my reply from that thread here:

While I do agree that partners should be heard when they voice their concerns over a partner transitioning, there are ways to say it without reducing the word transphobia to something that trans people throw at people at random and framing trans people who call out transphobia when they see it as the "bad guys" in the situation.

I definitely do see transphobia in comments like these:





It actually reminds me a lot of straight people's reactions when queer folks call them out on homophobia. Or people who make sexist comments when they're called out on their sexism. Yet somehow when it comes to trans people, some queer folks can't see how their behaviour mirrors that of those who, in turn, oppress them.

What does "Rah-Rah Tranny people" (seriously, if you're trans and identify as a "tranny", that's cool, but a cis person using the word "tranny" to refer to trans people in general is offensive, in the same way as a white person using the "N" word or a straight person calling gay men "fags") even mean? Apparently they are "politically fueled"? Again, what does that mean? Cause to me a "politically fueled" trans person is someone who fights for their own rights in a society where they don't have equal rights with the rest of the LGB spectrum. In the country the author is from, for example...

Like I said above, I have no problems with partners going through their process of coming to understand or accept their partner. But I feel the author made some comments that were transphobic (zomg, I must be a "rah rah tranny person"). I understand the frustration if the community she is a part of tells her that it's not acceptable to voice her feelings and grief over her partner's transition. I don't think that's good of them to do at all, and it's not something I would support. On the other hand, I don't think she should be expressing her frustrations while make transphobic remarks. It's like justifying homophobia because you had a bad altercation with a queer person, or sexism because you had an altercation with someone of a certain sex. Neither is acceptable in my eyes, and I don't think trans people should have to put up with anymore than anyone else should have to put up with discriminatory comments.

Then call me transphobic. I would never use the word "tranny" but I may use words or concepts that could be offensive to other transmen or women because my partner is comfortable with them.

What her comments mean to me is that she is transitioning right alongside her partner and it is not always pretty or free of internalized transphobia, homophobia or other isms. That is why partners discuss these issues in groups with other partners. I have never once in all my discussions with partners felt transphobia from them. I have felt a lot of pain and confusion. Also happiness and love. Like I said it is a mixed bag and it may not always be palatable to everyone.

I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and I still appreciate her courage in expressing her feelings.

ETA Do you all remember that article in Oprah about the straight lady who fell in love with a transman? Now that article felt transphobic and really bugged me a lot. This one does not.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Then call me transphobic. I would never use the word "tranny" but I may use words or concepts that could be offensive to other transmen or women because my partner is comfortable with them.

What her comments mean to me is that she is transitioning right alongside her partner and it is not always pretty or free of internalized transphobia, homophobia or other isms. That is why partners discuss these issues in groups with other partners. I have never once in all my discussions with partners felt transphobia from them. I have felt a lot of pain and confusion. Also happiness and love. Like I said it is a mixed bag and it may not always be palatable to everyone.

I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and I still appreciate her courage in expressing her feelings.

ETA Do you all remember that article in Oprah about the straight lady who fell in love with a transman? Now that article felt transphobic and really bugged me a lot. This one does not.

If a person is using slurs (aka "tranny," "he/she," "she male" etc.), incorrect pronouns, or are referring to trans people in general's bodies in ways that aren't sensitive to dysphoria, then that is transphobic. She does not get a free pass to throw around offensive language just because she is married to trans person.

If turn this around and made it about a previously heterosexual identified woman who begins dating a lesbian, or a person with internalized racism dating a person of colour, do they have just as much a right to express their difficulties with the situation by throwing around slurs? I should hope not.

And it's not just about slurs.

I looked for support but found very little because partners don’t generally talk about the difficulties we face in transition. Nobody wants to be the one to say, “This fucking hurts,” lest we be judged by the politically fuelled who would label us transphobic.

This is an argument thrown at trans people by cis people on a daily basis. When a trans person calls a cis person out on transphobia, they frequently throw it back in our faces as though we're doing it just to play the victim, to hurt them, or act as though we have to be more tolerant of their inability to accept us (which really fucking gets me. Why are trans people always expected to have to put up with this? Because our mere existence is too difficult and confusing for everybody else?), or we're taking things too seriously, or we're too sensitive. That statement is so loaded with all of the above.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

If a person is using slurs (aka "tranny," "he/she," "she male" etc.), incorrect pronouns, or are referring to trans people in general's bodies in ways that aren't sensitive to dysphoria, then that is transphobic. She does not get a free pass to throw around offensive language just because she is married to trans person. Something tells me if that we replaced "trans" with "woman," "lesbian" or "gay man" on this site, it would be a different story as far as what people would or would not tolerate.

If turn this around and made it about a previously heterosexual identified woman who begins dating a lesbian, or a person with internalized racism dating a person of colour, do they have just as much a right to express their difficulties with the situation by throwing around slurs? I should hope not.

And it's not just about slurs.



This is an argument thrown at trans people by cis people on a daily basis. When a trans person calls a cis person out on transphobia, they frequently throw it back in our faces as though we're doing it just to play the victim, to hurt them, or act as though we have to be more tolerant of their inability to accept us (which really fucking gets me. Why are trans people always expected to have to put up with this? Because our mere existence is too difficult and confusing for everybody else?), or we're taking things too seriously, or we're too sensitive. That statement is so loaded with all of the above.

Her partner uses that term. Often I defer to what my partner prefers. He does not like the term FtM and so I don't use it. He does use the term transmasculine. Depending on who you are talking to it can change.

I do not doubt or argue that the language is transphobic to you. All I can tell you is that there is a whole lot of yucky stuff that swirls around in one's head when your partner is changing day to day. Working through transphobia is one of the things I have done over the past three years. And it has come up in the most surprising ways. My partner is also Latino and I have had to work through my own racism.

I'm really sorry that this feels bad to you and that you do not feel heard. That is a crummy feeling and not my intent at all. I guess I am feeling kind of cranky and needing to carve out my little space. That should not be to the exclusion of you or other transpeople and for that I apologize.

I still give her the benefit of the doubt though.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Her partner uses that term. Often I defer to what my partner prefers. He does not like the term FtM and so I don't use it. He does use the term transmasculine. Depending on who you are talking to it can change.

I do not doubt or argue that the language is transphobic to you. All I can tell you is that there is a whole lot of yucky stuff that swirls around in one's head when your partner is changing day to day. Working through transphobia is one of the things I have done over the past three years. And it has come up in the most surprising ways. My partner is also Latino and I have had to work through my own racism.

I'm really sorry that this feels bad to you and that you do not feel heard. That is a crummy feeling and not my intent at all. I guess I am feeling kind of cranky and needing to carve out my little space. That should not be to the exclusion of you or other transpeople and for that I apologize.

I still give her the benefit of the doubt though.

Thanks for the reply julie. I can understand not using certain terms or using certain terms that your husband doesn't like/likes when referring to him. But what about other trans people? That's why I don't like her use of the word "tranny" here. If she were referring to her husband, then I would understand. I guess what I'm trying to understand is why the word that one uses for one's significant other needs to be assumed for other trans people (especially when it's a well-known slur)? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Thanks for the reply julie. I can understand not using certain terms or using certain terms that your husband doesn't like/likes when referring to him. But what about other trans people? That's why I don't like her use of the word "tranny" here. If she were referring to her husband, then I would understand. I guess what I'm trying to understand is why the word that one uses for one's significant other needs to be assumed for other trans people (especially when it's a well-known slur)? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

But see maybe she is just learning and then uses the terms her husband is comfortable with and is told those are not ok. It is a learning curve.

We know a transman who has limited experience in the trans community and zero experience in the queer community. Wow does he put his foot in in sometimes!!! I would never tell him he was homophobic or transphobic. I just explain how others might hear that remark.

So no you are not misunderstanding me. I don't have the answers in this case. My partner sure would not put up with me calling him or anyone else a tranny. We don't know how it works for these folks.

All I am really trying to say is that partners worry A LOT about being transphobic. I wonder is this the transition I am responding to or just some stuff of my partner's? Is my reaction transphobic? And sometimes it just might be!!! I worry much less about this nowadays. I know what is ok for my partner and for the community. But I learned by screwing up!!!

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

But see maybe she is just learning and then uses the terms her husband is comfortable with and is told those are not ok. It is a learning curve.

We know a transman who has limited experience in the trans community and zero experience in the queer community. Wow does he put his foot in in sometimes!!! I would never tell him he was homophobic or transphobic. I just explain how others might hear that remark.

So no you are not misunderstanding me. I don't have the answers in this case. My partner sure would not put up with me calling him or anyone else a tranny. We don't know how it works for these folks.

All I am really trying to say is that partners worry A LOT about being transphobic. I wonder is this the transition I am responding to or just some stuff of my partner's? Is my reaction transphobic? And sometimes it just might be!!! I worry much less about this nowadays. I know what is ok for my partner and for the community. But I learned by screwing up!!!

Oh yeah, I definitely understand that when people are new to something it takes them time to learn. I'm pretty sure all of us have unknowingly made some pretty horrible statements in our time. I know I've said some things that I've regretted just because I didn't know better.

I guess to me it comes down to how willing or sensitive people are to learning. Her comments just don't sound at all like she wants to learn, they seem directly in response to the criticism of these "rah rah trannies" whoever they were.

It just makes her sound like she was wronged by some trans people who criticized the way she was dealing with her husband's transition, and so she took that opportunity to rail against them using derogatory language.

I know emotions can be high when you have to deal with a loved one's transition. But, for me, the question here is when is going too far, really going too far? How many derogatory things can a person express out of anger before it becomes officially hurtful and crosses the imaginary line?

I get that some people use this sort of language without bad intent. One of my roommates who's trans uses the word tranny to refer to herself all the time. That's her identity, but she respects others' identity at least. I just didn't get that from her article, and on to of that those aren't words, to me, cis people should be saying.

And its not that I'm not supportive of SOs who are dealing with their partner's transitions. It's not that I don't understand that sometimes people need to express what they're feeling about a tough situation without judgement. I really think it's important for family and loved ones to get support and counseling, too. It seems that she wasn't getting the support she needed and that truly sucks. At the same time, if someone's unapologetically saying things like those two comments she made...that I find really, really hard to accept. I don't think I can. Basically...I support her until she starts railing against an already marginalized group...

[Ebon]

I'm actually very interested in hearing more experiences on what it felt like for SO's of trans people. If anyone else would like to share. I mean you don't have to go into detail if you don't want to but I would like to know what it felt or feels like on the other end. Like the woman in the article shared and like some others have already shared.

[betenoire]

Honestly, when I read the phrase "rah rah tranny people" I figured she wasn't speaking about actual transpeople. I figured she was speaking about the cheerleaders, who may not actually be trans themselves.

It's like the term trannychaser. Which is a term I like, frankly. Because it's so fucking spot-on.

In other news: No. Nobody does talk about what it's like to be the SO of someone who is transitioning. It's just fucking not fashionable for the SO to have feelings, especially if not all of those feelings are "rah rah rah GOOOOOOOOOO transperson! wooo!"

True story. Someone I was living with (10 years ago) dropped the "oh hi, I just this week realised that I'm a man and next week I have an appointment at the gender clinic!" (liar liar liar) bomb on me shortly after we moved in together.

Now, he had money troubles. Big money troubles. I was working full-time and he was just on-call at his job. So sometimes I had to pay more than my share of our expenses. I was cool with that because I knew I made more money than he did. So after he started going to his appointments and support groups and hanging out with his cool new boyfriends - he also started buying a shitload of new clothes. I very specifically remember this one month he didn't have money for his half of the phonebill but the next day he came home with a new fucking hoodie. So I called him out on it and he was all *tearfull* *earnest* "But I feel like I pass better in this sweatshirt".

I. Completely. Lost. My. Shit. I absolutely said that "frankly I do not give a fuck if you pass or not at this juncture. Right now I am way more concerned about whether or not we get our telephone cut off." Aaaaaand the universe blew up. "I cannot believe you would say something so TRANSPHOBIC!" blah blah blah. Fuck, I even had to hear what a horrible person I am from some of our mutual friends who he has whined to.

Couple that with the fact that he was, honestly, my First Real Girlfriend and I was feeling real mindjobby about that too (because I was really REALLY stoked to have a First Real Girlfriend, let me tell you.) But you know, I was never allowed to say that out loud to him. And I was never allowed to talk to anybody else about it because saying outloud that I felt ripped off because I no longer had a girlfriend (and what I really wanted was a fucking girlfriend!) was TRANSPHOBIC.

And it really fucking sucks. We are not allowed to have any feelings or disclose any negative experiences because to do so is TRANSPHOBIC. It's almost as if as soon as the person we are with starts to transition we are no longer allowed to be people. We're not allowed to have feelings, unless they are "rah rah rah!".

ETA: More true stories! I have broken up with exactly two other people since then because they decided to transition after we got together. Not because I am TRANSPHOBIC (although I have heard that I am) but because that's just not the relationship that I want to be in. Early on in the transitioning process is often a really selfish/self-absorbed time-frame in a person's life...and so it should be. I certainly am not in any position to tell other people what they should or should not do...but I think it's a time-frame where people are best off single. Or at the very least they are (or I am, more likely) best off not dating ME.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

On the other hand, I don't think she should be expressing her frustrations while make transphobic remarks. It's like justifying homophobia because you had a bad altercation with a queer person, or sexism because you had an altercation with someone of a certain sex. Neither is acceptable in my eyes, and I don't think trans people should have to put up with anymore than anyone else should have to put up with discriminatory comments.

I'm not in any position to tell someone that what they hear is or is not transphobic. I mean if that's how it feels for you then that is how it feels for you. I just want to say that in all fairness having a bad altercation with a queer person or having an altercation with someone of a certain sex isn't really the same thing as dealing with issues surrounding your partner's, husband's, wife's transition. I would imagine there would be much more depth to the feelings.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I'm not in any position to tell someone that what they hear is or is not transphobic. I mean if that's how it feels for you then that is how it feels for you. I just want to say that in all fairness having a bad altercation with a queer person or having an altercation with someone of a certain sex isn't really the same thing as dealing with issues surrounding your partner's, husband's, wife's transition. I would imagine there would be much more depth to the feelings.

I really don't think it is, and I think that saying trans people are "different" than dealing with a queer person or a person of a certain sex is a major double standard.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I really don't think it is, and I think that saying trans people are "different" than dealing with a queer person or a person of a certain sex is a major double standard.

I didn't say that. I didn't say dealing with anyone is different than dealing with anyone else. I said an altercation with someone is much different than working through issues in a marriage.

I don't think what is happening or has happened between that woman and her husband can simply be called an altercation. That's the example you used And that's what I responded to.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I didn't say that. I didn't say dealing with anyone is different than dealing with anyone else. I said an altercation with someone is much different than working through issues in a marriage.

I don't think what is happening or has happened between that woman and her husband can simply be called an altercation. That's the example you used And that's what I responded to.

In the instances where I quoted her using the words "rah rah tranny people" and talking about "the politically fueled" (presumably the same as the "rah rah tranny people"), are not her talking about her husband. She and her husband can work through their marriage issues all they like, but she is not referring to her husband in these comments. Her husband is not "rah rah tranny people" or "politically fueled" "tranny people." Working through her marriage and her husbands transition does not make it ok for her to refer to other trans people as "rah rah trannies," or reduce transphobia to something trans people say to make cis people feel guilty.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

In the instances where I quoted her using the words "rah rah tranny people" and talking about "the politically fueled" (presumably the same as the "rah rah tranny people"), are not her talking about her husband. She and her husband can work through their marriage issues all they like, but she is not referring to her husband in these comments. Her husband is not "rah rah tranny people" or "politically fueled" "tranny people." Working through her marriage and her husbands transition does not make it ok for her to refer to other trans people as "rah rah trannies," or reduce transphobia to something trans people say to make cis people feel guilty.

Ah okay got it. She had altercations with other transmen. I missed that. Sorry.

[The_Lady_Snow]

It would be hypocritical of me to excuse her heavily weighted verbiage just cause she's femme, a sad femme, an angry femme, I can express concerns, fears, insecurities without having to use deragatory words. I'm ok with calling it out because not everyone is going to be ok with that particular descriptive...

Anyway it isn't going to change nor is my opinion up for debate I've shared now I'll just read.

[Apocalipstic]

Wait...did chick and her husband have an altercation? now I am lost.

[blush]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

This article was actually posted in the Trans News thread: http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...?t=2287&page=6

Personally, I found it really offensive. It's one thing to express your emotions over your partners transition. It's another thing to make these sorts of really transphobic statement. And another brilliant example where the existence of transphobia in the world is almost mocked. Where even pointing out transphobia is turned around on the trans person who points it out, as if they are in the wrong for pointing out oppressive language. If someone calls me a "rah rah tranny person" I'm going to be fucking offended. In fact, if anyone calls me a "tranny" I'm going to be fucking offended, I don't care who you are.

I'll post my reply from that thread here:

While I do agree that partners should be heard when they voice their concerns over a partner transitioning, there are ways to say it without reducing the word transphobia to something that trans people throw at people at random and framing trans people who call out transphobia when they see it as the "bad guys" in the situation.

I definitely do see transphobia in comments like these:





It actually reminds me a lot of straight people's reactions when queer folks call them out on homophobia. Or people who make sexist comments when they're called out on their sexism. Yet somehow when it comes to trans people, some queer folks can't see how their behaviour mirrors that of those who, in turn, oppress them.

What does "Rah-Rah Tranny people" (seriously, if you're trans and identify as a "tranny", that's cool, but a cis person using the word "tranny" to refer to trans people in general is offensive, in the same way as a white person using the "N" word or a straight person calling gay men "fags") even mean? Apparently they are "politically fueled"? Again, what does that mean? Cause to me a "politically fueled" trans person is someone who fights for their own rights in a society where they don't have equal rights with the rest of the LGB spectrum. In the country the author is from, for example...

Like I said above, I have no problems with partners going through their process of coming to understand or accept their partner. But I feel the author made some comments that were transphobic (zomg, I must be a "rah rah tranny person"). I understand the frustration if the community she is a part of tells her that it's not acceptable to voice her feelings and grief over her partner's transition. I don't think that's good of them to do at all, and it's not something I would support. On the other hand, I don't think she should be expressing her frustrations while make transphobic remarks. It's like justifying homophobia because you had a bad altercation with a queer person, or sexism because you had an altercation with someone of a certain sex. Neither is acceptable in my eyes, and I don't think trans people should have to put up with anymore than anyone else should have to put up with discriminatory comments.

Ender, you make some excellent thinking points in this post. It's never up to the majority to decide what is offensive to the minority.

[Deborah]

I guess I have become confused as to the purpose of this thread...