Men with boobs.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Random

Heart..

She is saying that HER butch is... not that all butches are...

There is a difference...

It's just as wrong trying to force your (general your's, not your's personaly) ID on someone as it is to try to says that all are something because one is...

You are completely missing my point.

The only thing I am trying to force, and will continue to try and force, is recognition that women exist along a diverse spectrum of gender and sexual identities, all the way from ultra-feminine to ultra-masculine, and that being ultra-masculine does NOT make one male anymore than being ultra-feminine makes one straight.

Does that expalin it better??

[turasultana]

Originally Posted by Heart

You are completely missing my point.

maybe she's not missing it, just disagreeing with it. which is allowed.

My guess, is its something Cynthia and Christine joke about - Christine "compared to your sex and the city girlfriends I look like a short guy with boobs" and they laugh it off. Cynthia said it in the Advocate, probably among a zillion other things they didn't even print - and huffington post and ny post and whoever else, took the most quotable, (perhaps unfortunate) line and used it as a teaser.

now we're beating it into the ground. (me too of course, but just cause my boss is off today :>)

[Heart]

Originally Posted by turasultana

maybe she's not missing it, just disagreeing with it. which is allowed.

My guess, is its something Cynthia and Christine joke about - Christine "compared to your sex and the city girlfriends I look like a short guy with boobs" and they laugh it off. Cynthia said it in the Advocate, probably among a zillion other things they didn't even print - and huffington post and ny post and whoever else, took the most quotable, (perhaps unfortunate) line and used it as a teaser.

No actually, Random was missing it - because I'm not forcing anything on anyone, they can id however they want, in fact it's irrelevant to my point what their personal ids and relationship and lover's jokes are.

Nixon's comment leads me to make this point (as I did above): women exist along a diverse spectrum of gender and sexual identities, all the way from ultra-feminine to ultra-masculine. Being ultra-masculine does NOT make one a man anymore than being ultra-feminine makes one straight.

That, in a nutshell, is my point.

Heart

[BullDog]

When someone makes a public comment that many would construe as transphobic- that's what it's called- transphobic. People don't bend their ass over backwards trying to find something clever or cute about it.

What is said or shared between a couple in private is between them.

[Dylan]

So, she's not allowed to be referred to by her partner (someone who obviously knows her as they live together, and they're raising children together) as a 'man with boobs', but she IS allowed to be referred to by complete strangers on the internet as 'a butch' (which she may not ID with at all, and being that her partner has pretty much stated they don't ID as a butch/femme couple, we can infer that she doesn't ID as a butch)

And all because complete strangers on the internet feel they have a right to tag her as THEY deem fit, and in a way in which makes THEM comfortable.

And this is justified with 'personal IDs are out of fashion this year'?


Oh, Ok,
Dylan

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Dylan

So, she's not allowed to be referred to by her partner (someone who obviously knows her as they live together, and they're raising children together) as a 'man with boobs', but she IS allowed to be referred to by complete strangers on the internet as 'a butch' (which she may not ID with at all, and being that her partner has pretty much stated they don't ID as a butch/femme couple, we can infer that she doesn't ID as a butch)

And all because complete strangers on the internet feel they have a right to tag her as THEY deem fit, and in a way in which makes THEM comfortable.

And this is justified with 'personal IDs are out of fashion this year'?


Oh, Ok,
Dylan

Is this (below) what you're referring to as saying her partner saying she doesn't ID as butch? (I say she b/c her partner refers to her as "her")

Because I pretty much read that as her saying she'd (Christine) be upset for saying that really the personalities are the opposite of what they appear as... and also I know she did say one of the things she loved about her was her "butch-ness", earlier in the article.

Probably shouldn't be making statements that she isn't butch any more than assuming that she is (or identifies as such).

"Christine would probably kill me for saying this, but my daughter said one time that if you really had to break this down, [it looks like] she would be butch and I would be femme...but really once you get to know us it's really the opposite."

[Jett]

It's interesting, would it be as acceptable and defended if Cynthia had said "one of the things I love about him is his trans-ness" - "he's a short woman without boobs".

If you find that offensive, but are defending her about the "short man with boobs" crappola... well that to me is a problem.

Because I know... everyone would be all over that like fly's on shit.

[Medusa]

Hey Heart,

Hope it's ok to tease this out a little more.

I also believe that women exist on a gender spectrum that is as diverse as it is prolific.
Im wondering if, in the article, Cynthia had referred to her partner as "Trans" if the "man with boobs" comment would mean something different to you? What if her partner comes out as Trans in a few days? Would that feel any different when trying to name something on our gender spectrum that may exist in a completely different capacity on someone else's?
Because to me, it does make a difference how that person identifies, if the comment was ok for their way of being or if it was an insensitive, erasing snip.

I was sitting here kinda thinking over a couple of the conversations I have had with some of my Trans Male friends and how a couple have actually talked about feeling like a "man with boobs" until they were able to have the surgery to make their body fit more in-line with what they felt their identity called for.

I was also thinking about the negative comments on this particular article and how it saddens me so deeply that our entire spectrum of Queerness is so often fetishized and/or treated as a voyeur-circus for mouth-breathing idiots.

More thoughts..

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Hey Heart,

Hope it's ok to tease this out a little more.

I also believe that women exist on a gender spectrum that is as diverse as it is prolific.
Im wondering if, in the article, Cynthia had referred to her partner as "Trans" if the "man with boobs" comment would mean something different to you? What if her partner comes out as Trans in a few days? Would that feel any different when trying to name something on our gender spectrum that may exist in a completely different capacity on someone else's?
Because to me, it does make a difference how that person identifies, if the comment was ok for their way of being or if it was an insensitive, erasing snip.
More thoughts..

What I'm talking about has nothing to do with Cynthia's partner's id. It doesn't matter if she's butch, trans, andro, sporty or none of those. It's the way Cynthia chose to describe her masculine female partner as a MAN because that is the only way she can be understood since masculinity CANNOT, apparently belong to a women. That's my point.

Now. If her partner was, in fact, a man and/or if she came out as a transman tomorrow, the interesting thing is that I think we'd hear a whole lot of hulabaloo about how transphobic Nixon's comment was. Would any of us refer to Chaz Bono or any of our FtM brethern as "men with boobs?" It would be considered highly disrespectful.

And that's my other point: the privileging of men/male identity over women/female identity.

Heart

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Heart

What I'm talking about has nothing to do with Cynthia's partner's id. It doesn't matter if she's butch, trans, andro, sporty or none of those. It's the way Cynthia chose to describe her masculine female partner as a MAN because that is the only way she can be understood since masculinity CANNOT, apparently belong to a women. That's my point.

Now. If her partner was, in fact, a man and/or if she came out as a transman tomorrow, the interesting thing is that I think we'd hear a whole lot of hulabaloo about how transphobic Nixon's comment was. Would any of us refer to Chaz Bono or any of our FtM brethern as "men with boobs?" It would be considered highly disrespectful.

And that's my other point: the privileging of men/male identity over women/female identity.

Heart

Ah, see, now we're talking!
See, when I read that she is describing her masculine female partner as a man, I first wondered if she was just trying to get people who dont have the language that we have to understand. Thinking futher though, I wondered if she was describing her masculine female partner that way because she knows something that we dont know (the whole hypothesis about how her partner may or may not self-identify her gender).

I do definitely agree that there is privileging in the identity of men/male over the woman/female...until there isnt. For the most part, this exists on a grand scale throughout just about every corner of society, but then I think of Femme privilege in context with my Butch partner experiencing homophobia and Im able to see cracks in my (once-solid) little gender vase.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Heart

women exist along a diverse spectrum of gender and sexual identities, all the way from ultra-feminine to ultra-masculine. Being ultra-masculine does NOT make one a man anymore than being ultra-feminine makes one straight.

That, in a nutshell, is my point.

Heart

Thank you, Heart, for so succinctly phrasing what is wrong with Nixon's description.

Last night, I was IM'ing, linked the article, pasted the phrase in question and typed *UGH*...today, I thought about it more and, lo and behold, a mighty thread to read with much to ponder.

Many of you have already expressed (better than I could have articulated!) the reason for my automatic response of taking offense at her phrasing and equating her partner with a man.

Nixon has been with her partner since 2004--not that she needs to be the expert on anything--but god, please! People were already (I know b/c I follow the celeb goss) commenting upon Marinoni's masculine looks/presentation and same 'ol comments of *why not just be with a man?* Now, Nixon verifies (to the public) that a butch or masculine presenting woman basically IS a man...with boobs. She confirmed (joking or not, private understanding or not) what people already thought of butch women--they really are just women posing as men--so why not just be with a (real) man? (especially when you are with a FAKE man, an ugly looking mannish woman at that! <--variations of awful, disgusting comments that have been posted pre and post this article regarding this couple.

As far as whether Marinoni ID's as other than female/woman, here is a snippet of an interview with Nixon from the past who clearly states that she fell in love with a woman:

She continues, “I had been with men all my life and I had never met a woman I had fallen in love with before. But when I did, it didn’t seem so strange. “I don’t define myself. I’m just a woman in love with another woman.”
....
She notes, “I met this woman and I fell in love with her. In terms of my sexual orientation, I don’t really feel that I changed. I don’t feel any different than I did before.”

Anyway, regardless of where you fall on this issue, what a great discussion.

[BullDog]

I think her 3 year old son is right on the mark:



Charlie’s processing of the relationship started at school. “His teachers were just so great about it,” Nixon says, “because they were the first people that started referring to ‘Charlie’s moms,’ which is so lovely, and we really hadn’t done that yet. So Charlie came home one day and he said [to Marinoni], ‘You’re my mommy too!’ ” Deciding to seize the opportunity, Nixon began calling her partner Mama Christine. “I said, ‘Charlie, where’s Mama Christine? Is Mama Christine in the other room? Would you take this to Mama Christine? What does Mama Christine want for breakfast?’ I did this a nauseating amount, and one morning we’re at breakfast and Christine is in the shower and Charlie says, ‘Where’s Papa?’ My daughter says ‘Papa? You mean Daddy?’ And he said ‘No, Papa! Christine!’ He’d come up with this masculine name for her. It’s gone through a whole series of things.” When Charlie’s Russian barber told him to ask his daddy to give him a little brother, Nixon says she stood back to watch the preschool-age Charlie’s *reaction. “I was just going to let it go—what are you going to say? But I saw Charlie—I saw it land and how he thought about this, and he was quiet for a while. Then he very slowly said, ‘Sometimes I call Christine Mommy.’ It was like Charlie was trying to navigate what everybody’s assumptions about him and his family were at age 3. It was so amazing.”

http://advocate.com/printArticle.aspx?id=110591

She's Papa and she's Mama Christine and she's Mommy

[BullDog]

The story that Nixon describes of her family is very similar to one I am familiar with. My butch roommate is a mother and grandmother. Her grandson, when he was about 3, started calling his grandmother Guz (we think it's a combo between Buzz Lightyear and Grandma). It fits his butch grandmother to a t. The kids call their femme grandmother Nana. Kids know butches are somewhat different and they figure it out.

Whether Nixon's partner specifically ids as butch or not, she appears to face many of the same issues that a lot of butches/masculine women face. She deals with people that know and love her as well as perfect strangers who might not always know where to place her. She deals with it in her house, at the barber shop, at her kids' school, wherever she happens to go. That's in the context of being a masculine, lesbian/queer WOMAN (in terms of how you are perceived, not talking personal, individual identity) in this world- and all the good, bad and indifferent things that go along with that. The very lived experiences that lots of people in butch femme communities seem to want to ignore or erase.

[Kobi]

This thread made me chuckle.

After being out for 30+ years, it is the same never ending, always growing and changing identity, labels, individuality, all inclusive nonsense. We, as a community cannot agree on any of the terms and inclusions but we expect outsiders to accept and understand the free for all we call a community?

And, we cant agree on this but feel we have the right to judge and comment on how someone else sees their own relationship? Do you really care what words Cynthia Nixon uses to describe her partner? Is like the world going to stop revolving if they have their own way of being that doesnt coincide the the multitude of opinions just within this thread? Isnt that their right?

When you stop and think about it....maybe the slow growth of acceptance is being fueled by our own need to constantly reinvent the wheel everytime we hear of a new word or term or identity or whatever. Heck, Cynthia Nixon is my opinion is just a heterosexual lesbian.....but thats a whole 'nother topic.....lol.

If we cant agree on it and accept it, why should anyone else accept it?

[Cyclopea]

If she's a man with boobs she must be able to stroll around central park shirtless enjoying the sun on her double D's without getting so much as a second glance.

I took Nixon's remarks as being humorous and off-the-cuff and overall I respect her immensely and don't hold her comment against her.

That being said I appreciate Heart's topic: that there is a lack of language to describe female masculinity without equating it with maleness and thus insulting the naturalness of the butch woman. Being masculine does not make someone less of a woman.

Great thread!

[Random]

Originally Posted by Heart

You are completely missing my point.

The only thing I am trying to force, and will continue to try and force, is recognition that women exist along a diverse spectrum of gender and sexual identities, all the way from ultra-feminine to ultra-masculine, and that being ultra-masculine does NOT make one male anymore than being ultra-feminine makes one straight.

Does that expalin it better??

No.. I didn't miss your point...

Lol.. this is just one subject we don't agree upon...

Because I belive that there are more ways to id... more diversity on the spectrum of gender and sexual identities that there are words to describe them...

and a couple of ways that ultra masculine people ID is male and ultra feminine ID is straight..

For SOME People those are truths... Nothing is true of everyone... And for me... Those people who do fall into the *Tradidional Sterotypes* have just as much voice/rights to ID as THEY ID as those who don't fall into the traditional...

For me... Not one way is better.... the entire range is right for those who feel it is right for them...

If you are a femaled id'd butch.. yea.. if you are male id'd... yea... if you are a high femme who id's a a straight mother and wife... yea.. if you are a femme dyke (me!) who loves her doc's as much as her stillettos and wants to bring her butch dinner while wearing a apron over her camo's... Yea...

There is a place for all of us... We might not fit every where.. with everyone.. but there is room for all of us...