Men with boobs.

[BullDog]

A masculine appearing WOMAN (however she may identify and whatever her and her partner may share between them) is being reduced to a short man with boobs.

Just who is policing identities? Now people are saying short man with boobs is an identity.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by BullDog

A masculine appearing WOMAN (however she may identify and whatever her and her partner may share between them) is being reduced to a short man with boobs.

Just who is policing identities? Now people are saying short man with boobs is an identity.

How is that "reduced"? Are you saying that there is something -wrong- with short men with boobs? Do you have a hate-on for Danny DeVito? What is going on here?

And maybe "short man with boobs" IS the identity of someone, somewhere. I wasn't being tongue in cheek when I said that I self-identify as "A fat Drew Barrymore". I fucking DO, okay? Because it's the closest thing that I can think of to what/who I actually am.

Why are you personalizing what someone else may or may not be referred to as?

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by BullDog

A masculine appearing WOMAN (however she may identify and whatever her and her partner may share between them) is being reduced to a short man with boobs.

Just who is policing identities? Now people are saying short man with boobs is an identity.

But *is* she a woman?
Are we assuming she is a woman because she has breasts and a vagina? Have we *seen* her breasts and vagina?
Do we know whether or not she is right now, at this very minute, sitting in a Dr's office filling our her paperwork for SRS?
Do we know that she isnt on testosterone?

Now, let me be clear that Im not "defaulting to the male experience" here by wondering aloud these questions, just being curious though how the proverbial "we" perceive a person's gender as opposed to how "they" perceive it.

Good discussion.

[BullDog]

I am not the one speculating how she identifies.

This is way beyond frustrating for me. Good day.

[Random]

Originally Posted by BullDog

A masculine appearing WOMAN (however she may identify and whatever her and her partner may share between them) is being reduced to a short man with boobs.

Just who is policing identities? Now people are saying short man with boobs is an identity.

Who are we to say that short man with boobs isn't an identity?

Just the same as tall woman with dick could be an identity...

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Random

Who are we to say that short man with boobs isn't an identity?

Just the same as tall woman with dick could be an identity...

If someone referred to their partner as well he's basically a tall woman with a dick this conversation would be far different.

[Random]

Originally Posted by BullDog

If someone referred to their partner as well he's basically a tall woman with a dick this conversation would be far different.

You think so?

I haven't lived your experience as a butch.. So I haven't had your experiences..

But for me... I would just as strongly support someones right to be a tall woman with a dick as I do a short man with boobs...

Now someone other that the person or the persons partner labling anyone either one would meet with resistance..

Random..

Who's partner IS occassionaly a tall woman with a dick...

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Random

You think so?

I haven't lived your experience as a butch.. So I haven't had your experiences..

But for me... I would just as strongly support someones right to be a tall woman with a dick as I do a short man with boobs...

Now someone other that the person or the persons partner labling anyone either one would meet with resistance..

Random..

Who's partner IS occassionaly a tall woman with a dick...

I'm not sure how many times it has to be repeated that the issue isn't one individual's personal identity.

Edit: as far as I know no one here knows Cynthia Nixon's partner personally.

[Heart]

Jesus Christ. This discussion was not intended to be about whether someone can call themselves a short man with boobs or a tall woman with dick. How does it get reduced down to: "Anyone can call themselves whatever they want?" If that's the discussion you want to have - go ahead.

But that is not the discussion I started.

[Medusa]

I think Im getting stuck on the intimacy.

I asked myself how I would feel if the person making this comment was a random stranger on the street.

I'd be pissed.

The fact that it is her partner making this comment makes me feel as if there is intimate knowledge and intimate boundaries between them that I dont have a right to impose upon.
Where is the line? Is there an intersection between fighting for the visibility of masculine women by calling out comments such as these and taking comments such as these as intimate words to and about people who are partnered no matter their gender?

..

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Medusa

I think Im getting stuck on the intimacy.

I asked myself how I would feel if the person making this comment was a random stranger on the street.

I'd be pissed.

The fact that it is her partner making this comment makes me feel as if there is intimate knowledge and intimate boundaries between them that I dont have a right to impose upon.
Where is the line? Is there an intersection between fighting for the visibility of masculine women by calling out comments such as these and taking comments such as these as intimate words to and about people who are partnered no matter their gender?

..

Dusa - it's not about the individual identity for me or about the intimate relationship. I'm not concerned with their identities or their relationship. For me, it's about the paucity of language and images, the assumption that only men/male can be masculine, and all that that implies about views of women's genders and sexualities in society, culture and communities, including queer ones. Even if Nixon's partner is not a woman, the statment is minimizing and dismissive of the reality and complexity of butch women's lives -- because her partner is certainly seen in the world as a woman. Except now she is seen as a man with boobs.

I don't hold Nixon responsible for the fact that there are such narrow visions of what women are, and so few ways to describe the lives of women that fall outside of cultural norms, but it saddens me that she has to use this kind of tired, (and yes, sexist, misogynistic, and homophobic) remark to describe her partner.

Heart

[Random]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I'm not sure how many times it has to be repeated that the issue isn't one individual's personal identity.

Edit: as far as I know no one here knows Cynthia Nixon's partner personally.

I guess that is the difference in viewpoints..

Your stance on the issue is that it isn't one individual's personal identity...

My stance is that it is always one person

For me.. the indivdual is more important that the mass.. one is just as important as the many...

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Random

I guess that is the difference in viewpoints..

Your stance on the issue is that it isn't one individual's personal identity...

My stance is that it is always one person

For me.. the indivdual is more important that the mass.. one is just as important as the many...

*banging my head against the brick wall yet again*

"she's basically a man with boobs"

that a generalized statement- not my partner identifies as a short man with boobs.

This has nothing to do with one person's personal identity- none of us even knows what hers is or if she even has one.

Geeze Louise

Everybody can call themselves what they want and their partners can too if with consent. So what does that have to do with the issue Heart has raised?