Men with boobs.

Random · 05-11-2010, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

If someone referred to their partner as well he's basically a tall woman with a dick this conversation would be far different.

You think so?

I haven't lived your experience as a butch.. So I haven't had your experiences..

But for me... I would just as strongly support someones right to be a tall woman with a dick as I do a short man with boobs...

Now someone other that the person or the persons partner labling anyone either one would meet with resistance..

Random..

Who's partner IS occassionaly a tall woman with a dick...

BullDog · 05-11-2010, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random

You think so?

I haven't lived your experience as a butch.. So I haven't had your experiences..

But for me... I would just as strongly support someones right to be a tall woman with a dick as I do a short man with boobs...

Now someone other that the person or the persons partner labling anyone either one would meet with resistance..

Random..

Who's partner IS occassionaly a tall woman with a dick...

I'm not sure how many times it has to be repeated that the issue isn't one individual's personal identity.

Edit: as far as I know no one here knows Cynthia Nixon's partner personally.

Heart · 05-11-2010, 12:59 PM

Jesus Christ. This discussion was not intended to be about whether someone can call themselves a short man with boobs or a tall woman with dick. How does it get reduced down to: "Anyone can call themselves whatever they want?" If that's the discussion you want to have - go ahead.

But that is not the discussion I started.

Medusa · 05-11-2010, 01:03 PM

I think Im getting stuck on the intimacy.

I asked myself how I would feel if the person making this comment was a random stranger on the street.

I'd be pissed.

The fact that it is her partner making this comment makes me feel as if there is intimate knowledge and intimate boundaries between them that I dont have a right to impose upon.
Where is the line? Is there an intersection between fighting for the visibility of masculine women by calling out comments such as these and taking comments such as these as intimate words to and about people who are partnered no matter their gender?

..

Heart · 05-11-2010, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medusa

I think Im getting stuck on the intimacy.

I asked myself how I would feel if the person making this comment was a random stranger on the street.

I'd be pissed.

The fact that it is her partner making this comment makes me feel as if there is intimate knowledge and intimate boundaries between them that I dont have a right to impose upon.
Where is the line? Is there an intersection between fighting for the visibility of masculine women by calling out comments such as these and taking comments such as these as intimate words to and about people who are partnered no matter their gender?

..

Dusa - it's not about the individual identity for me or about the intimate relationship. I'm not concerned with their identities or their relationship. For me, it's about the paucity of language and images, the assumption that only men/male can be masculine, and all that that implies about views of women's genders and sexualities in society, culture and communities, including queer ones. Even if Nixon's partner is not a woman, the statment is minimizing and dismissive of the reality and complexity of butch women's lives -- because her partner is certainly seen in the world as a woman. Except now she is seen as a man with boobs.

I don't hold Nixon responsible for the fact that there are such narrow visions of what women are, and so few ways to describe the lives of women that fall outside of cultural norms, but it saddens me that she has to use this kind of tired, (and yes, sexist, misogynistic, and homophobic) remark to describe her partner.

Heart

BullDog · 05-11-2010, 02:44 PM

Sassy, yeah she appears to be newly out. I don't hate the messenger just the message. And also the fact that such tired, sexist, misogynist and homophobic remarks are being defended.

To quote Heart:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heart

I don't hold Nixon responsible for the fact that there are such narrow visions of what women are, and so few ways to describe the lives of women that fall outside of cultural norms, but it saddens me that she has to use this kind of tired, (and yes, sexist, misogynistic, and homophobic) remark to describe her partner.

Heart

The message over and over is masculine women/butch women- suck it up, laugh it off. Not so when derogatory comments are made towards other masculine gender identities in our community.

BullDog · 05-12-2010, 03:18 PM

Once again, as we repeat ourselves over and over:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heart

Dusa - it's not about the individual identity for me or about the intimate relationship. I'm not concerned with their identities or their relationship. For me, it's about the paucity of language and images, the assumption that only men/male can be masculine, and all that that implies about views of women's genders and sexualities in society, culture and communities, including queer ones. Even if Nixon's partner is not a woman, the statment is minimizing and dismissive of the reality and complexity of butch women's lives -- because her partner is certainly seen in the world as a woman. Except now she is seen as a man with boobs.

I don't hold Nixon responsible for the fact that there are such narrow visions of what women are, and so few ways to describe the lives of women that fall outside of cultural norms, but it saddens me that she has to use this kind of tired, (and yes, sexist, misogynistic, and homophobic) remark to describe her partner.

Heart

Random · 05-11-2010, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

I'm not sure how many times it has to be repeated that the issue isn't one individual's personal identity.

Edit: as far as I know no one here knows Cynthia Nixon's partner personally.

I guess that is the difference in viewpoints..

Your stance on the issue is that it isn't one individual's personal identity...

My stance is that it is always one person

For me.. the indivdual is more important that the mass.. one is just as important as the many...

BullDog · 05-11-2010, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Random

I guess that is the difference in viewpoints..

Your stance on the issue is that it isn't one individual's personal identity...

My stance is that it is always one person

For me.. the indivdual is more important that the mass.. one is just as important as the many...

*banging my head against the brick wall yet again*

"she's basically a man with boobs"

that a generalized statement- not my partner identifies as a short man with boobs.

This has nothing to do with one person's personal identity- none of us even knows what hers is or if she even has one.

Geeze Louise

Everybody can call themselves what they want and their partners can too if with consent. So what does that have to do with the issue Heart has raised?

Bob · 05-11-2010, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BullDog

. So what does that have to do with the issue Heart has raised?

I'LL tell you what it's got to do with it.

The price of Limburger in Hamburg.

05-11-2010, 01:03 PM	#4
Medusa Mentally Delicious How Do You Identify?: Queer High Femme, thank you very much Preferred Pronoun?: Mme. Relationship Status: Married to JD. Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,446 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 5,995 Thanked 42,680 Times in 7,831 Posts Rep Power: 10000026	I think Im getting stuck on the intimacy. I asked myself how I would feel if the person making this comment was a random stranger on the street. I'd be pissed. The fact that it is her partner making this comment makes me feel as if there is intimate knowledge and intimate boundaries between them that I dont have a right to impose upon. Where is the line? Is there an intersection between fighting for the visibility of masculine women by calling out comments such as these and taking comments such as these as intimate words to and about people who are partnered no matter their gender? .. __________________ . . . Buy ButchFemmePlanet Merch Here: https://teespring.com/stores/butchfemmeplanetcom-merch

05-11-2010, 12:59 PM	#3
Heart Member How Do You Identify?: Femme Relationship Status: rainbows! Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: NY Posts: 466 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 303 Thanked 2,522 Times in 409 Posts Rep Power: 12032610	Jesus Christ. This discussion was not intended to be about whether someone can call themselves a short man with boobs or a tall woman with dick. How does it get reduced down to: "Anyone can call themselves whatever they want?" If that's the discussion you want to have - go ahead. But that is not the discussion I started.