Men with boobs.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Arwen

However, I often feel as though in threads like this, I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for female-id butches who are called he.

i think what you're supposed to do is recognize that it's sexist. I doubt that the butches want or need your sympathy.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Martina

i think what you're supposed to do is recognize that it's sexist. I doubt that the butches want or need your sympathy.

On which side? I mean...if you are going to tell me what I should see something as, maybe you could be a bit more forthcoming with the rules?

[BullDog]

We don't want anyone to fucking feel sorry for us or feel guilty. Can we get some fucking respect? Apparently not. I'm really, really, really pissed at all the disrespect, combativeness and dismissive way masculine women and butch women are being treated- not that it's anything new- and no I'm not talking about Cynthia Nixon.

Roger. Over and Out.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by BullDog

We don't want anyone to fucking feel sorry for us or feel guilty. Can we get some fucking respect? Apparently not. I really, really, really pissed at all the disrespect, combativeness and dismissive way masculine women and butch women are being treated- not that it's anything new.

Roger. Over and Out.

See? Here's the deal. You can't tell me what or how to feel. You have no control over that. It's my reactions to what I read and how I perceive things.

If I choose to be sad that others feel disrespected, that's my hula hoop--not yours. Please do not tell me what to say or think or feel and I will do my best to return that favor.

You react how you want. I will react how I want. I am expressing my opinion. You are taking it personally.

Why?

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Arwen

See? Here's the deal. You can't tell me what or how to feel. You have no control over that. It's my reactions to what I read and how I perceive things.

If I choose to be sad that others feel disrespected, that's my hula hoop--not yours. Please do not tell me what to say or think or feel and I will do my best to return that favor.

You react how you want. I will react how I want. I am expressing my opinion. You are taking it personally.

Why?

Actually... not to be nick picky but you said (my highlights)

"...I often feel as though in threads like this, I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for female-id butches who are called he. I also feel that I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for masculine-id butches who get called she."

Yeah, what-ever the ID, male-female I don't really think any butches are looking for anybody to feel guilty or sorry for them...

I know I sure as hell don't need it *lol*... really I don't have a damn thing to feel sorry about. I'm pretty damn happy to be me, probably to a fault. If I make a statement I don't like AB or C that ain't whinin' that's just me bitchin'...

Don't feel bad about that... I sure don't.
Metro

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Actually... not to be nick picky but you said (my highlights)

"...I often feel as though in threads like this, I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for female-id butches who are called he. I also feel that I'm supposed to feel guilty or sorry for masculine-id butches who get called she."

Yeah, what-ever the ID, male-female I don't really think any butches are looking for anybody to feel guilty or sorry for them...

I know I sure as hell don't need it *lol*... really I don't have a damn thing to feel sorry about. I'm pretty damn happy to be me, probably to a fault. If I make a statement I don't like AB or C that ain't whinin' that's just me bitchin'...

Don't feel bad about that... I sure don't.
Metro

Not picky at all. However, that started with "I feel as if" so I did preface that with my own feelings of needing to feel. HA! Convoluted enough?

We can probably just chalk that up to my inherent feelings of guilt for being responsible for everything including WW's I and II. It's a joke in certain groups I hang out in.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Toughy

As to Daddy and Syr............well those are erotic and/or sexuality identities for Me.

Well, Daddy I -do- get and I'll give you that (and I never give anybody anything). But know that the "Sir" I was referring to was really a lowercase "sir". I was talking about if Nick says "on your way back from the kitchen grab me a drink" or "hold this" and I say "yes sir!" and click my heels sarcastically. (That's just an example, I would never be sarcastic with the spouse. Please!) Why is that just shrugged off? Nick is not a man. But, for some reason, most of this online community would be squicked out if I were to "yes, ma'am!" and click my heels at Nick.

However I would suggest that there are Femme Daddies and Femme Syrs. I know some.............<looking at Snow>.

Snow is hot. If I wasn't married I would totally try to do it with her. I have no idea what "it" is, and I would like to apologise now for this temporary derail.

Originally Posted by Heart

or demanded an apology because I used the word "dude," while its a-okay to call a butch a "short man with boobs."

Well, when you and me have been dating for years and are raising a child together maybe then you can call me pretty much whatever you please without pissing me off, okay? We simply do not have the kind of relationship where it's okay to for you to call me anything other than my name. Which is Brandy.

My intent was continually derailed because basically no one wants to have this conversation.

It seems to me that the only conversation that you are interested in having is the one where everybody stays completely within the rules of topic that you defined in your initial post without the topic ever expanding or evolving in any way shape or form. Oh, and that it's also very important that everybody agree with you - which doesn't make for very interesting conversation as far as I'm concerned.

Would it have been SOOOOO hard to stop for a second and consider what I'm saying? That masculine women identified butches are not men, and do not need to be compared to men in order to be defined or understood.

Nobody is disagreeing with you on that. At all. So what is the problem, here?

In fact, I tried to have a conversation with you on that -exact- topic (see my post about it not being okay to call every Butch on the planet "he" just because it's convenient) but instead of engaging in conversation you accused me of "baiting" you.

I think what you actually wanted was a thread where you made your initial post, and a bunch of people posted 2-3 word sentences along the lines of "you're so right!" "it's awful!" "grody bad behaviour!" and that was it.


p/s - I get that this thread isn't about Femmes, but i do want to put out there that this across-the-board referring to all Butches as "he" really lends to the invisibility of Femmes. If I am on the bus, at work, at the mall, on the phone with my parents and referring to my spouse as "he"...then nobody is ever going to know who Nick is, and by extension of that who I am.

[PapaC]

grabbing's heart's post:

"We live in a world where what it means to be a woman is so restricted and devalued and female masculinity is so under-represented, that a woman as sophisticated as Cynthia Nixon publicly calls her butch lover "a short man with boobs." Ugh."

This thread is almost having me convinced to fuck the binary completely and keep my man boobs intact. (almost, I said)..

but how valid is a discussion of ID in this thread when really what I see from Heart's initial post, it's more about a MACRO not MICRO perspective. In other words, it has nothing to do with Cynthia or Christine or you or me or anyone on a personal level, but a constant persistent objectification and reduction of the human female form, perpetuated ad infinitum.

I'm not saying personal reactions are not valid, though.

Take Cynthia out of the equation and look solely at the statement, the sound bite. It speaks volumes and that's what people (mainstream) see. They don't see the woman behind the boobs.

[apretty]

1. with regards to pronouns: i ask, prior and i default 'she' for butches because i know more 'she' than 'he/hy' butches and while 'he' seems a the go-to pronoun 'online' --i like continuity (and newsflash: she does not equal less-than).

2. i think the importance in talking about how/why x-person says her partner is 'a man' with a one small detail like *boobs* comes down to the *qualifying* your female partner (as man-but-for) makes your relationship less-than authentic in the eyes of the average and straight reader.

also, it defeats the purpose of being an OUT "lesbian" --and this is what nixon talked about for a good part of the interview (that both partners desired to be *out* and prior, nixon's manager/publicist person had discouraged her from disclosing her relationship.).

3. so, whether or not she 'chose' to be the spokesperson for 'female and gay' --a big article in the ADVOCATE will spotlight what you're doing/what it's all about/what it looks like/sounds like/feels like to the person unfamiliar with female masculinity.


full quote:

"She's basically a short man with boobs. A lot of what I love about her is her butchness. I'm not saying I fell in love with her in a sexually neutral way. I love her sexuality - it's a big part of what I love about her - but I feel like it was her. It wasn't something in me that was waiting to come out. It was like, 'This person is undeniable. How can I let this person walk by?'

finally, i find it curious that nixon reduces her partner to male/female body parts while she resists fully owning her sexuality, instead places it square on the shoulders of her partner: "...i feel like it was her. it wasn't something in me..."

*and i'm not a big sex/the city fan, to be fair. (not sure if that matters)

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Martina

i think what you're supposed to do is recognize that it's sexist. I doubt that the butches want or need your sympathy.

Right, what she said... thanks Martina.

I'm not sure where things come off as looking for anything but recognition of the issues put forth. Truth, maybe if more peeps could get past trying to read in between the lines conversations like these would get so fucky nuts in the first place.

Sez me who's pretty damn tired of these convos as well, wish there wasn't a need for them, but there is.
Metro