Men with boobs.

[AtLast]

I think we as a community need to remember that for some Butches, what is invalidated and devalued out in the world is not their "womanness" but their masculinity

For me, its the opposite... and especially so in the B-F community and on B-F sites. And I don't want either to be invalidated. Yes, this is true for some butches, not all. And the thread is dealing with female/woman aspects based on the short man with boobs statement.

We all just don't fit neatly into a box or have the same life's experiences. Which is rather kewl. And when I say all, I mean every butch identification that a member might have on this site.

I'm not meaning to be snide, but, it seems that every time butch gets discussed, it ends up male in some form even when the OP posed a conversation about the female/woman aspects of butch!

Hummmm, the point, right?

[Bit]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I think we as a community need to remember that for some Butches, what is invalidated and devalued out in the world is not their "womanness" but their masculinity

For me, its the opposite... and especially so in the B-F community and on B-F sites. And I don't want either to be invalidated. Yes, this is true for some butches, not all. And the thread is dealing with female/woman aspects based on the short man with boobs statement.

We all just don't fit neatly into a box or have the same life's experiences. Which is rather kewl. And when I say all, I mean every butch identification that a member might have on this site.

I'm not meaning to be snide, but, it seems that every time butch gets discussed, it ends up male in some form even when the OP posed a conversation about the female/woman aspects of butch!

Hummmm, the point, right?

My ONLY point, AtLast, was to answer a very clear question that was posted in the thread; "why call a Butch one thing here on the site and another at home?" I believed (and still believe) that the statement after that question, that the answer would be germane to this endless discussion, is true.

When I posted my answer, I had no clue that June meant there were people who, as betenoire said, use male pronouns just to fit in online. I mean, come ON, this is an issue which has been exposed and endlessly debated in the online butch/femme community since 2002 or before! That's EIGHT YEARS of attention brought to the fact that the male pronoun default in use at that time on that website was wrong.... and yet we're saying here that people are still today---on a completely different website which was deliberately set up to include and validate butches-as-women---using male pronouns that absolutely in no way at all fit them, trying to "go along to get along"? WTH?

It mystifies me.

[weatherboi]

I think this post/question is very thoughtful in terms of how socially entwined our views on gender and equating male to be strong and female to being weak. I understand this as a submissive guy. Certain people equate submissive bottom as weak or less than guy. This is not true.

My entire life experience has been just this. I was born submissive. It shows up all over the way i have lived my life professionally and emotionally. I spent some years of my life denying this because of trust issues, not this issue,but have discussed it intensely in therapy. I mean i am well aware and experienced that there are butches/guys/femmes out there that see me as a freak and think i should maybe man it up. I do not prescribe to this kind of thinking.

I love it when my Ms's masculine energy takes over. It is a dynamic not an identifier. She is no less Femme to me. From my knees perspective I quietly see a difference in how this energy is recognized from this community to my offline community experiences.

Originally Posted by June

I am going to give an example, but not use the persons name, it's someone I really value and I hope she will forgive me for sharing this story, if she even remembers it!

Several years ago, she and I met in person and I asked which pronouns she preferred, she said she/her. Then one day, after that, I referred to her as "She" in a thread and she messaged me and said (not an exact quote) "Way to call me she". I was kind of stunned by that, but changed the way I referred to...him.

Now, what is that about? What makes it okay to use female pronouns in person and male online? What is it *we* do that makes it not okay to be a "she". How does it negate or lessen someones Butch Cred? It doesn't for me, but I'm not Butch. (But I am "Butch Enough")