"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Merrick,

I honestly cannot understand why you would insist that I am intentionally "trashing" or "falsely representing" a thread on the other site when I have clearly explained that my read of those terms translated to what I wrote. I was going to ask if you missed my posts where I explained myself but it seems that you didnt, this gives me even more pause because you are still insisting that I am trashing by falsely representing here? I havent heard "Liar, Liar, pants on fire" in a while but I read it reallllll well.

Just a refresher: When I read the title of the thread "Old Terms in a New Age", I heard "old" juxtaposed with "new age" as in "outdated", "antiquated".
I promise you there was no nefarious intent when I parsed "old" into "antiquated" when I am talking about this issue.

I asked a question. That is not trashing a site or a thread, no matter how many times its said. This was my way of trying to have a new conversation that had nothing to do with the video that was posted there (however great it was!). I merely wanted people's read on how the terms Butch or Femme might be seen as antiquated/old and their thoughts on that. THAT was my thought process, nothing more.

a

1 - I didn't insist any such thing. I said what I said, and you quoted, there was no "echo" within, I can't stop you from adding something in, but thats your add, not mine.
As you your self keep saying, there was a false inference, the motivation is your business, I didn't presume one.
2- The point of using another site, as a jumping off point for a Thread, is where you lose me. There was no need. But if you absolutely had to then an actual reading of the opening post, beyond the Title, seems a must do , in my book. If you had done so, then no mix up of words, juxtopositioning one for the other, would have occurred because the actual subject had nothing to do with either word.
3- Personally, I have always thought it a good rule, to not bring in outside sites. Kind of like talking about someone who isn't there. Not a good idea
You have a nice site here, wouldn't it be cool, if it survived on its own merit, without constant references to "other' sites.
As the owner, you set the standard. Like it o r not, that's how it goes...

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by MsMerrick

1 - I didn't insist any such thing. I said what I said, and you quoted, there was no "echo" within, I can't stop you from adding something in, but thats your add, not mine.
As you your self keep saying, there was a false inference, the motivation is your business, I didn't presume one.
2- The point of using another site, as a jumping off point for a Thread, is where you lose me. There was no need. But if you absolutely had to then an actual reading of the opening post, beyond the Title, seems a must do , in my book. If you had done so, then no mix up of words, juxtopositioning one for the other, would have occurred because the actual subject had nothing to do with either word.
3- Personally, I have always thought it a good rule, to not bring in outside sites. Kind of like talking about someone who isn't there. Not a good idea
You have a nice site here, wouldn't it be cool, if it survived on its own merit, without constant references to "other' sites.
As the owner, you set the standard. Like it o r not, that's how it goes...

1. You insist my intent by saying that I am "trashing" another site. If you werent insisting that I had a nefarious intent, you would have simply said that I had "referred" to another site.

2. *YOU* dont see a need for it, *I* do. And here again, I dont *have* to do anything as in "must do" because again, my read was my own, my read of the title of the thread and subsequent posts was the jumping off point.

3. Not bringing in outside sites is all well and good but its kinda difficult when we *share* a membership and a community. If we cant ever discuss anything that has ever been discussed on another site then that leaves us with our thumb up our asses considering that there are...oh, I dunno...a BAZILLION threads elsewhere. Again, there seems to be an issue for you with seeing intent that simply *isnt* there. That's your issue, not mine.

And yes, *we* do have a nice site here. A great one actually. Regardless of what you see happening here, this site IS surviving on its own merit, hence over 400 members in less than a month. I dont know where you are seeing "constant" references to another site (but then again, if you are looking for something you might be super myopic about it), but the fact of reality is that there WILL be referenced conversations here. I have no problem with it. Im not going to start policing people, what they say, or where they get their ideas for conversation.

Im also not going to give any more energy to what I feel has personal overtones for you. It's a waste of my time, and yours.
And now, since you "reminded" me that I must "set the standard" as the owner of this site, Im going to do just that and stop giving energy to this circular conversation.

[PapaC]

Sure, and sometimes... all we have are first impressions to go on.
And sometime it's just the delivery.

As for sharing of information on terms and definitions... I scraped around the internet ALL night to get some direction on some coding I had to do on a spreadsheet, and went to at least 3 different sites to get some instruction. Sometimes references matter, sometimes subject material is going to repeat itself on another site.

Maybe not completely analogous to this situation, but I know how I *felt* when I first saw the phrase 'old terms' and I didn't particularly like how it felt for me.

Finally... are refugees from trouble countries forbidden to talk of their experiences in the new country?

...just some drive by thoughts from one of those ugly posters who skims too much for my own good, and tends to rely on titles to capture my interest.

[NJFemmie]

Hmmm...

Are they antiquated terms? hmm .. I don't know. But I also don't see where those terms will be disappearing any time soon either. But then again, I am not some 20-year old, and tend to hold on to terms that might be a bit antiquated to begin with.

I'm not a politically-correct ID junkie either. I kind of believe in "be who you are", and in my mind, won't slap any particular label on anyone. They (labels) are, and always have been, IMO, too general and vague for the uniqueness of every individual. On the flip side of that - I would not be dismissive to their own label/ID/what-have-you either.

On a personal standpoint, I only label my myself to the most basic degree. If anyone wants to know WHO I am, well, they'll soon find that the label itself doesn't "be all to end all".

[Unndunn]

I think it's perfectly natural to talk about a lot of things here that took place or are taking place on the hyphen site (how I think of b-f.com). It's where we're all from, right? Maybe there are a few people who found this planet site on a google search but I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of members of this new site share a history and relationships that didn't just start here. I welcome the rules of this site. It's freeing and healthy in my opinion to be able to talk about where we're from and in many cases why we left. I like PapaC's analogy of immigrants, or refugees.

I'm sure some people have strong connections to the hypen site and feel loyalty to it, and/or to its owner. However, I'm not one of those people. Not being allowed to talk about a place that we all came from or still belong to just furthers the things that I didn't like about that other site, especially recently. The thread on the hyphen site about butch and femme possibly being old and outdated terms was just one more thing that made me feel "less than." I completely agree that communities need to find ways to be more welcoming and accessible. But, and this is a big one, I don't think that the way to court new members is by devaluing the contributions and identities of the current members.

My 19 year old niece has a lot of different terms for things than I do. When I like something I say it's cool. When she likes something it's "sick." We both know we're talking about the same emotion, but we are using different words to describe it. Younger people and others with different reference points, such as urban people, and/or poc use a lot of different, new terms. I need to know what those terms mean so that I'm able to communicate effectively, but those terms don't change who I am. How would losing myself or denying my identity and worth really be a good thing for any community?

I'm a butch and that's not going to change. It's the responsibility of all people, from all points of reference to seek out and learn about how others feel and identify. It's not a one way street in either direction.

Unn/the 40+ year old butch from CT

[Words]

IF Dusa were hell bent on 'trashing' B/F.com, then I'm sure that she is more than capable of coming up with something far more damning than what she supposedly came up with here.

Not being confrontational, simply stating what, to me, seems fairly obvious.

Words

[Words]

Originally Posted by Unndunn

I think it's perfectly natural to talk about a lot of things here that took place or are taking place on the hyphen site (how I think of b-f.com). It's where we're all from, right? Maybe there are a few people who found this planet site on a google search but I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of members of this new site share a history and relationships that didn't just start here. I welcome the rules of this site. It's freeing and healthy in my opinion to be able to talk about where we're from and in many cases why we left. I like PapaC's analogy of immigrants, or refugees.

I'm sure some people have strong connections to the hypen site and feel loyalty to it, and/or to its owner. However, I'm not one of those people. Not being allowed to talk about a place that we all came from or still belong to just furthers the things that I didn't like about that other site, especially recently. The thread on the hyphen site about butch and femme possibly being old and outdated terms was just one more thing that made me feel "less than." I completely agree that communities need to find ways to be more welcoming and accessible. But, and this is a big one, I don't think that the way to court new members is by devaluing the contributions and identities of the current members.

I couldn't agree more.

[SuperFemme]

I think the devaluing of Butch and Femme often comes from within our own community (The GLBTQ one). I was researching and found this pearl of an article

As for young people using Queer and GenderQueer? I find that to be true. I also don't think that anyone has touched on the fact that using the word Queer is reclaiming a word.

Is is too much to think that in the next few decades that if we hear Butch and Femme being used less that it too will end up being reclaimed in another generation?

[NJFemmie]

They are all old words given new meaning. They'll never go away, just have a slight variance in definition and meaning with each generation.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I think the devaluing of Butch and Femme often comes from within our own community (The GLBTQ one). I was researching and found this pearl of an article

As for young people using Queer and GenderQueer? I find that to be true. I also don't think that anyone has touched on the fact that using the word Queer is reclaiming a word.

Is is too much to think that in the next few decades that if we hear Butch and Femme being used less that it too will end up being reclaimed in another generation?

Got to agree here. My straight friends are fine with me being Femme and having Butch partners..they get it.

My gay/queer friends think I am out there in the lunatic fringe...which cracks me up.


I think this is a great subject for this Website. It is relevant and stands alone.

[SuperFemme]

Interesting Article:

The death of femme
The butch-femme dynamic is dead for women under 30, who only want to date tranny bois like them.

FEMMES ARE OUT of fashion. So posits my friend Coya, and I wonder if she might be right.

When she says “out of fashion,” she means that feminine lesbians are now being marginalized in a new way. The gold standard, of course, has long been butch. Since I came out 13 years ago, most lesbians try to be butch, especially when they first come out.

Some women were just always tomboys, and lesbians welcome them the way they are. But even women who love lace and frills often try out butchness.

Partly I think that’s because being butch, even for a little while, is a good way to shake off the many chains that women wear. It’s a good way to learn that you don’t have to be vulnerable to be valuable, that you don’t have to be pretty to be attractive, that you can be smart and strong and loud, and women will not only be OK with that, but they’ll want to sleep with you.

Also, short hair, a boyish way of walking, an eschewing of make-up, jewelry and high heels, makes us more recognizable to each other, and so it is not surprising that single lesbians might aim to proclaim their lesbianism as loudly as possible.

BUT FOR THE first time that Coya or I can remember, not only don’t most younger lesbians want to be femmes — but they don’t want to date them, either.

The butch-femme dynamic is all but dead for women under 30. I’m not crying about that. I myself always felt trapped when I was the femme half of a butch-femme couple.

It’s not easy being the one who is always expected to be weaker, more emotionally savvy, less able to protect herself, more easily moved to tears. It was hard to keep my temper when women called me “Bambi” or compared me to various porn stars just because I happen to be well endowed.

These things are cyclical, of course. Another friend who came of age in the androgynous 1980s says she was horrified by how butch-femme couples dominate the lesbian scene. It seemed to her an aping of heterosexual conventions, a trend that bought into the idea that only masculine people could be paired with feminine ones.

Yet with the demise of the butch-femme couple comes the general idea that femmes aren’t dating material.

YOUNG WOMEN WHO once called themselves butch now call themselves tranny bois, and these tranny bois are mostly dating each other. This is interesting, and I wonder why.

Are femmes not trangressive enough in our new gender queer era? Are they not playful enough with gender roles? Are tranny bois and androgynous lesbians worried that femmes are a trap that would force them into more traditional butch roles? Or is it really that young lesbians are simply not attracted to women who are feminine?

Let’s face it: When it comes to curvy, feminine women, lesbians may preach acceptance. We may pay lip service to it. After all, we have been acculturated to accept all body types, at least theoretically.

We celebrate thin women, boyish women, curvy women, chubby women, stocky women, butch women, femme women, androgynous women. Every woman’s body, every woman’s gender identity, is OK with us.
Only it’s not. Neither Coya nor I are immune from this general social pressure. Coya, a self-described femme, prefers boyish women. I tend to date more androgynous women — usually women with boyish bodies who wear lipstick, or who slide easily between femme-ish and butch-ish. Think Alice on “The L Word.” Or really, any of the women of “The L Word,” who are too butch to be femme and too femme to be butch.

We might say that any woman’s body is OK with us, but what we say is not who we date. We might have an aesthetic that says that curvy women are beautiful, but we are attracted to women who don’t have curves or who play them down.

The gender queer contingent among lesbians are our current taste-makers; where they go, so go we all.

Femmes, I’m sure, will come back into fashion some day. But until they do, I wonder if we will continue to make room for all the ways we express gender.

http://www.sovo.com/2005/5-27/view/columns/femme.cfm

[Apocalipstic]

I totally agree that Femme is out of style. I just wonder when it ever was?

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by PapaC

Finally... are refugees from trouble countries forbidden to talk of their experiences in the new country?
.

Totally NOT to derail the great conversation happening here.... but I had to make sure this was noted.

This was a great analogy for me (and maybe others resonate)

Brilliant, PapaC.

Thank you!

[Arwen]

I think what it all boils down to for me is this:

I will call you(generic) what you(generic) want to be called. I would request the same courtesy in return.

Language discussions that revolve around age are, you will pardon the pun, as old as the hills.

"Kids these days" will all too soon be "the older crowd" and the "older crowd" will be ...well, not present.

So I guess I don't much care what anyone thinks of the term butch or the term femme other than as far as respecting my choice to use it. And I promise not to call you(generic) femme if you will give me another choice to use.

[Bootboi]

Originally Posted by Arwen

I think what it all boils down to for me is this:

I will call you(generic) what you(generic) want to be called. I would request the same courtesy in return.

So I guess I don't much care what anyone thinks of the term butch or the term femme other than as far as respecting my choice to use it. And I promise not to call you(generic) femme if you will give me another choice to use.

I'm with Arwen on this. I really think it's common sense but then as they say common sense isnt so common.

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by Bootboi

I'm with Arwen on this. I really think it's common sense but then as they say common sense isnt so common.

... just as being politically correct isn't correct anymore.
I think I finally understand what it means to get old. The generation gap concept has been epiphanized.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Originally Posted by Medusa

And actually, the more I thought about it I shouldnt even have said "parsed" because that implies that I changed the meaning somehow. I think I should have said "used the word as I interpreted it".

And just for the record: From Dictionary.com

antiquated - 4 dictionary results
an⋅ti⋅quat⋅ed  /ˈæntɪˌkweɪtɪd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [an-ti-kwey-tid] Show IPA
Use antiquated in a Sentence
See web results for antiquated
See images of antiquated
–adjective 1. continued from, resembling, or adhering to the past; old-fashioned: antiquated attitudes.
2. no longer used; obsolete or obsolescent: The spinning wheel is an antiquated machine.
3. aged; old:


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This is why I couldnt really wrap my head around the idea of intentionally misrepresenting something as "antiquated" when it essentially means the same thing as "old" in the context in which I presented it. Language, a tricky tricky thing.

Medusa...I LOVE LOVE LOVE that you used the word antiquated. I believe the word is very fitting and less jarring to my eyes and soul as "Old Terms". I also believe this discussion is very important and EVERY related site should be having it right now! I don't understand the concept of others coming in trying to start drama over you bringing up this discussion! No site or person has a patent on the subject! That's just common sense! I see you have good business and social sense!

What I have heard from the 21 crowd here in DFW is the "younger crowd" is more gender fluid and doesn't want to be boxed into a label. Maybe this isn't some new phenomena. It seems to be history repeating itself as others have said. If I remember back to when I was that age, it seems others that age around me felt the same way. Too busy doing other things rather than being too serious about dissecting ones self/soul/reflecting on the deeper meaning of it all. I've always heard and believe it's true for most that the 20s are about figuring out who you are. And in our 30s we finally accept ourselves. I'm sure that might explain why BF sites don't have a larger younger audience. Many in the younger generation haven't figured out yet if they are more butch, more femme, both or none of the above, and haven't figured out yet what specific type of person they are more attracted to. Not to mention, no telling how many times their minds, feelings, wants, needs and desires change. They are just being, experiencing and trying to see what fits and feels best. I have heard for the first time in all of my Gay Life a 21 year old refer to herself as a Femmestick!!! LoL!

What has been very interesting to me is being off the BF sites for a few years and coming back and seeing even the over 30 and up generation now coming out of the Butch/Femme boxes/labels and/or expanding them.

I have to say I love a feminine Femme...I hope she never vanishes and there are always some of her around!