Femme Led Relationships and Trans/Butch/Femme Bottoms

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Sweet

So no one misinterprets my tone or awkward struggle to find the right words, this comes from a place of total respect and dignity for everyone here.

At first, I didn't understand your post... and I still may not? But, I wasn't trying to focus my discussion on the negative submissive ways or twist things about, or blur any lines. I was attempting to explain where I was coming from, and to offer my support for sub/bois that enjoy their positive dynamic and for their Ms. I over explained myself, I understand that now. I also was not attempting to perpetuate any false information or stigma. I was trying to voice a distaste for exactly that. Yes, I do believe it is dangerous to blur the line and I meant no disrespect at all. I do agree that being forced to submit to *anything* as a child/adult does not pertain to this conversation. I did mention that I was having trouble finding the right words... and did mention that I haven't had the opportunity to enjoy the positive submissiveness of any relationship or dynamic... I was trying to show respect for those that do enjoy and partake.

I attempted to focus the majority of my post on being made to feel "less than" and how that makes me (and others) reject exploring their desires to be sub. But apparently, I've stepped on toes or over stepped my bounds. I stand scalded and will gladly and with dignity learn from it.



Yes, in some ways, I do have a vanilla lack of knowledge or view... what I like to describe as being naive, and sheltered, which sometimes comes from lacking the ability to interact with someone of quality in my real-time environment like yourself and your Ms. However, just that statement "vanilla lack of knowledge" makes me feel that somehow... although unwittingly... my being vanilla is "less than" and my views not considered valuable...even if naive and lacking in something. However, I do not have a blurred view of perspectives and consider my perspectives very clear... I like to organize my thoughts/perspectives into "concepts" ... "concept A is =", "concept B is ="... I also keep my way of "being" separate within my thought process or while processing new knowledge when trying to understand and be accepting to someone else's way of enjoying their lives. I do apologize - but not grovel- to anyone I offended.

I know you were coming from a really good place Sweet, and your tone is great. I hope understand that nobody's toes were stepped on in you post, because I don't want you to think that.

I was pointing out how it read. No worries, ok?

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by Sweet

Yes, in some ways, I do have a vanilla lack of knowledge or view... what I like to describe as being naive, and sheltered, which sometimes comes from lacking the ability to interact with someone of quality in my real-time environment like yourself and your Ms. However, just that statement "vanilla lack of knowledge" makes me feel that somehow... although unwittingly... my being vanilla is "less than" and my views not considered valuable...even if naive and lacking in something. However, I do not have a blurred view of perspectives and consider my perspectives very clear... I like to organize my thoughts/perspectives into "concepts" ... "concept A is =", "concept B is ="... I also keep my way of "being" separate within my thought process or while processing new knowledge when trying to understand and be accepting to someone else's way of enjoying their lives. I do apologize - but not grovel- to anyone I offended.

This statement I made was specific to my experience with my cousin not pertaining to you. I don't know you so I can not say what you lack or don't. I should have made that clearer and I apologize. I usually separate my thoughts with a space. I apologize for any misunderstanding. I will say that this is not what I experience in "leather" elements but other elements. Make sense sweet?

[Massive]

Originally Posted by ravfem

i've run into this since my first days out in the local kink community here in SC, over 10 years ago. The whole "she is sooooo not a top" judgmental crowd, who then whine about being judged by nillas.

Interestingly, it's been directed at bio-female bottoms/subs/slaves just as often as i've heard it in regards to male or butch tops/doms/owners....actually, now that i think about it, i've heard it more often at female bottoms than anyone else, but that's probably only because around here there aren't that many male or butch bottoms who are active in the groups.

i just know i dislike hearing the judgement, no matter who it's directed at. And yes, i partook of the judgements myself at first, but my Leather Mama taught me long ago that one never knows the dynamics involved in a relationship unless you're privy to it, so best keep your judgements to yourself.

Who am i to say who is or isn't anything??

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Nice thoughts ravfem-

Well from my knees experience none of the Doms of any gender or slaves I have met have treated me or any person they came into contact this way. I am talking about the queer butch femme community that does not participate in our dynamic. When I am with my Ms at a leather event I am boy and gender doesnt matter.

I have a hard time agreeing with you on the point that femme slaves/subs/bottoms and trans/butch Tops are scrutinized as often as a trans/butch bottoms and the Femme/Female Tops that lead them. I think that femme/female slaves/subs/bottoms and their trans/butch Tops/Daddys are much more widely accepted amoungst the masses.

I've been thinking about this tonight, and yes, rav is My little one and babygirl, so it's partly, but not all of the reason I chose to reply to those two posts at this point, but in My experiences over the years, I too have seen the denigration of femme slaves/subs/bottoms as well as trans/butch Tops And Femme/Female Tops as often as I've seen the dismissiveness towards myself as a butch-bottom and other trans/butch-bottoms/subs. (repeating Myself again I know, but I think this does need to be repeated)
Yes femme slaves/subs/bottoms are more widely accepted as are their trans/butch Tops/Daddys than Femme Tops and their butch-bottoms both in the Leather and butch-femme community.
For Me personally I feel that this does stem from a lack of respect for others relationships and also a simple lack of understanding of the dynamic, I still remember to this day being out with My original Master and having a butch I had known for years talking down to Me when hy realised that I was Her submissive, it made Me cringe because I had believed I had had hys respect and that he had also had respect for Her. Her response was to strip this butch right down, verbally and very loudly, telling hym She thought hys views and concept of My place in Her life as being 'less than' hys sub-femme as ridiculous as hys sub and myself had the same level of 'power' in our relationships, needless to say, She never spoke to hym again, and neither have I, even after I no longer served Her as a sub/bottom. Then again, after My service to Her had ended, and I was Top/Dom to a femme-sub, this same butches small clique of friends was extremely dismissive and snide to Me and My sub ... so what I'm basically trying to say here is I've seen this happen from both sides, maybe My being switch means I will always see this more? I'm not sure, maybe I'll see both more and less now I have a babygirl/sub who I care for deeply and I am her Syr and Daddy?
I'm not sure what's down the road in this regard, all I can say, and say with My hand on My heart, is if I see this at all in the Leather and butch-femme communities, I will come down on them like all hell has broken loose and confront whoever it may be with the simple fact that they, regardless of who they are or how long they've been in either community, have no goddamn right to judge Me, My babygirl, or anyone else, be they trans/butch-bottom/sub, femme/slave/sub, Femme/Female Top or any other kind of dynamic that they dismiss as being 'wrong' because they deem it so as they are too ignorant or narrow-minded to just accept the dynamic for what it is, a loving, sharing, caring bond for someone who chooses to submit themselves, completely and utterly, to the Dominance of another.
I hope I haven't rambled too much and have been as clear as I can about My views here, it's after midnight and My brain has a tendency to go AWOL sometimes at this time of day.
Thank you again for starting this thread weatherboi. I have nothing but love and respect for both you and your Ms.
(I owe you LOTS more cadburys mini eggs I believe Lady S because your boi here's not only a brave soul for bringing this topic to light, he is also, from what I've read, very good at what he does)

Just another thing that occurred to Me, our Leather community is based largely on respect, how can others expect to receive respect themselves when they choose to disrespect anothers dynamic???

[Toughy]

laughin.............

it's amazing what the statement 'bottoms run the fuck' will illicit from some folks.........

and the funny part is.............we actually are saying the same thing from a different perspective.............

sometimes I find the idea of 'humble' to be missing in a few Top/Dom/Domme/Master folks ...........

personally........as a Top/Dom.........I am ever humbled that anyone would give to Me the gift of their submission, the gift of their pain for My pleasure, their time for My pleasure and the trust that I will read her correctly and know when to crank it up and when to slow it down....I am the Conductor of the dance and power exchange of Top and bottom. I lead and you follow and together we create the journey.

[Toughy]

So many put my M/s relationships down--you don't really RUN THE FUCK, your slave could stop that at any time, well, you're still in a butch/femme relationship, we know who really runs the show----shut the fuck up, you don't really know what the dynamic is especially when you don't LIVE IT but rather read about it and philosphize about it, and can't even stay awake in a workshop about it.

I wanted to comment on this. First...........don't tell me to shut the fuck up because I live in the butch/femme world and I do D/s M/s differently than you do. I know exactly what My dynamic is..........and frankly I don't give a shit what your dynamic looks like. It's yours.

I live the dynamic for however long I want to live and if I only live it 12/6 it makes My dynamic no less valid than your dynamic.

This is a discussion about butch bottom, femme Top and kink and as such has no place for such derisive comments directed toward another viewpoint. A viewpoint that made no negative comments about other dynamics. Fact is we agree on most of those dynamics.

There are less derisive ways to talk about keyboard Tops/Dom(mes)/Masters. More constructive ways to talk about how us kink folk move forward in the internet age.

[weatherboi]

hi Toughy-

for me, the term 'bottoms run the fuck' illicits a 'slap in the face' so to speak to traditional kink values. it to me 'dumb downs' the idea of the power exchange. an oxymoron in phrase and theory. from my own perspective which is not the same perspective you come from. this works well in my relationship.

from my knees i say i can't/don't equate the theories my Ms or her Peers have to the level of humbleness in their hearts. my experience is they shine with great strength and that humbles me.

Originally Posted by Toughy

laughin.............

it's amazing what the statement 'bottoms run the fuck' will illicit from some folks.........

and the funny part is.............we actually are saying the same thing from a different perspective.............

sometimes I find the idea of 'humble' to be missing in a few Top/Dom/Domme/Master folks ...........

personally........as a Top/Dom.........I am ever humbled that anyone would give to Me the gift of their submission, the gift of their pain for My pleasure, their time for My pleasure and the trust that I will read her correctly and know when to crank it up and when to slow it down....I am the Conductor of the dance and power exchange of Top and bottom. I lead and you follow and together we create the journey.

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by Sweet

I appreciate this conversation. Thank you.

Misogny has a lot to do with it.... but also, some individuals are afraid of change or afraid of things that are done differently than what they consider "the norm". They attempt to force their beliefs on us, or scorn us for not being "normal"... maybe, inside they want to explore your type of relationship style, but are afraid of also being perceived as "less than"...so they quietly dream about it, but don't act on it, instead they continue to scorn those that do act on their inner self.

I am not so sure my experiences dictate that it is about people being envious of my dynamic and there lack of exploration. When a misogynistic situation presents itself and invades my dynamic it usually comes in the form of a trans or butch person trying to swtich my Ms or bait her slaves with belittling words.

You talk of our own personal evolution of our gender identity...
I agree that there is a stigma about your preferred type of bond. Mostly, (coming from a "me & I" place), I think stigmas come about because the person imposing the stigma has fears, inhibitions, lack of education, self esteem issues, issues with how they were raised to believe, or are too self absorbed to understand that their way is not the only or best way to live. Sometimes, the stigma around your type of bond is directed at both the sub and top because those imposing the stigma try to force their perceptions & beliefs...or interject their fears without personally knowing the couple in question. Sadly, the stigma becomes a personal attack like what you describe as a bullet. I admire your strength to dodge that bullet.

thanks for acknowledging this.


(Please note... this is hard for me to explain, but I will try anyway...I use the term submissive in a different definition than you are describing... to me, my submissive means I "give in" unwillingly to someone I really don't want to be with, or to do something with them that they know I don't like or is a boundary of mine, but they make me submit anyway because "it's their way or nothing". In the past, I've submitted to save my little cousin and sister from harm...or I've submitted to "get it over with and them off of me". To me there are two different ways of being submissive; what I describe here, which holds a negative feeling for me... and the submissive energy you and others enjoy, which is a very positive energy. )
i think you may be best served reading some literature on D/s. it will help you work out some of this confusion you seem to be struggling with surrounding this dynamic. you have a plethora of resources at your fingertips.

I don't consider myself a Femme Top... or a Femme Bottom... After being single for many years, I haven't been with anyone that I could explore being Femme Top with. I don't know how I feel about that, if I were given the chance. I'm still evolving...but, I've recently accepted my evolution as a Femme Middle (my own term, after struggling with my ID and perceptions of what other's think I am/should be). I am very comfortable with being Femme Middle because it gives me a sense of security I've never had. I have heard the term Femme Switch...this does not fit me either and isn't what I mean by Femme Middle.
listening to your experience i can see where femme middle evolved for you...good for you

I am far from weak and grit my teeth when it is implied that I am weak or "less than" or that I should take "second fiddle" to my partner of choice because they perceive themselves - or someone else perceives them - to be "the leader" of our relationship. I do not like to be submissive because of YEARS of being made to submit in a very negative way. Although, I have often been made to feel less than. Especially when I first came out and ID'd as Femme Bottom (because I didn't know about other ID's or how to evolve with my own)?

Maybe being made to feel less than is one reason why I reject being the positive submissive? (has anyone else ever felt that way?) I get very "hot under the collar" when I am treated like I'm less than or given less respect because I may possibly be submissive. It's a very big trigger point for me. Maybe because I was forced to be submissive as a child and young adult? Lately though, I've become very content with "owing" what makes me Femme Middle - a very sassy Femme Middle - and I finally take pride in "coming into my own". Femme Middle means something very special to me. I'm not sure if I could be Femme Top... but do respect and admire those that are, as well as their partners. I have so little experience with a partner - after being single for the most part since 1996 - that it's hard for me to explore my gender and preferences, or to judge what I am comfortable with or not. I do have boundaries, mostly to do with PTSD. I have wondered if I am Stone Femme? But for now, Femme Middle fits me very well.



I am very happy for you that you have found an intimate bond that you can completely enjoy and give yourself to. By what I describe above, I don't want you to think I would EVER belittle you in any way. I'm just having trouble finding my words is all.

Maybe one day, I will find a partner that I will willingly and without inhibitions be submissive to? Your positive kind of submissive energy. Maybe they will enjoy my being Femme Middle and I can explore being submissive without fear of being judged or "put into a little box" of their description of Femme? Maybe, if we both feel safe doing so, they won't mind me exploring being Femme Top? I certainly enjoy "giving" - submitting to a partner is a form of giving, as well as giving them specific attentions. I'm not sure about being in a Femme Led Relationship...although I am very sassy and independent, however it plays out, it must be a two way energy and relationship and NO "giving in" just because I felt I had to. I would enjoy finding a partner that would enjoy my gender and energy in the way you so affectionately describe. I will always continue to reject stigmas, bullets and little gray boxes with my sassy Femme way. Someone else's fears do not need to hurt me or become my own.

Being placed in someone's little gray box with their forced views written all over the walls, will make me fight like a caged wild Tigress. I hate little gray boxes and strongly disagree with/push away those that force me into their box.

There are times when I feel Top... but don't act on it because I am very happy being Femme Middle.


PS... I am Femme... but many of my likes and hobbies are considered "too masculine" for me. Especially with me liking all things mechanical and working in the construction field as a Forman and Boss for many years. I get very pissed at being forced into the a box filled with misogyny about "femme's shouldn't do that", "femme's can't do that because they will complain about breaking nails", "that's not how I like my Femmes, they should be frilly and fru fru", etc etc... It's the kind of person that forces me into that misogynistic box that I would LOVE to go Femme Top on!! I am Femme, hear me ROAR!

I think many femmes feel the way you do!! Thanks for your input sweet!!

[Apocalipstic]

Yeay, what a great thread!

Yes, I think Femme Tops, Femme Daddys, Butch Bottoms, Femme Cock etc etc. freaks people out and I love that!

It is sad that in a community that prides itself on bluring gender, people get so bent out of shape. We have enountered it often, but hope maybe people will become more open minded as they learn about different lifestyles?

I think it is important for those of us who don't do a set Male=Butch=Dominant and vice versa thing speak out and be visible.

I for one am thrilled that there are Butches in this world who do not 'haaave" to run the show.

I think it shows incredible strenth to gift control to another person and I admire this quality more than I can say.

[Kenna]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

I think many femmes feel the way you do!! Thanks for your input sweet!!

Thank you very kindly and I apologize for misunderstanding earlier.

[Sachita]

ok, :::::deep breath:::: I am at a crossroads in my life and having just turned 52 (lol- I know I don't look it!) I am fearless. Must be the gray hair!

I've thought about this a lot lately. A very brief synopsis is I began my femdom journey over 20 years ago. It was inspired by my spirituality... the many faces of the Goddess and feminine power. I refused to adopt societies feminine roles and ideals. I am a natural alpha femme. It's part of my essence. Sexuality was magic to me. When I first discovered BDSM my heart leaped. There was something there. I could feel it and that began a very long journey, many paths and ultimately living the lifestyle 24/7. My world was magnificent and animated. People would come to home and thought they walked into another world. I felt adored and worshiped but after a time i wanted more. I was attracted to butch energy, masculine and yet submissive. It was so hard to find the right dynamic and I often settled. In fact I stepped out of my femdom world completely and dated no one for maybe 4 years. When I decided to date I found BF and explored. I wasn't falling for this pseudo masculinity I saw in some butches. I see right through that shit. At the same time I was striving for some kind of balance. I had a few, very few relationships with transgendered people and struggled because I am naturally dominant and strong. They were constantly challenged by this and fought me tooth and nail. I grew sick of being called a dominatrix or mock me "Yes Goddess" every time i stood up or had an opinion.

My best day is to wake up, have coffee served, feel loved and truly adored. When one truly does exist to please me. It's not my ego it's my essence and it can't be just anyone looking to appease me. The dynamic is only presence when one thrives on serving me. I project, they receive and together we make magic. They long to relinquish control, it completes them and I long to feed on what they give me. It is the ultimate act of strength to step outside consensus morality and relinquish control to a powerful woman. It is an enhancement to your identity and not what most people think- a downgrade.

It's impossible for one that is not born to this world to understand how erotic and healing constructive humiliation is. They don't realize the responsibility that goes with mind fuckery and taking such an uncharted journey with another human being. Most have never soared that high or dove so deeply into darkness where the ultimate transformations take place.

It's complex, what I desire and the truth is I've settled. I thought I could have a strong butch, enjoy the whole old fashion BF dynamic and still be a spoiled princess but I'm sick and fucking tired of being misunderstood because I won't settle and because i want things. I'm sick and fucking tired of not having my needs met and then told I'm fucked up because of who I am. Tired of being so misunderstood.

Maybe two years ago a friend, naturally submissive boi came to visit. There wasn't anything feminine about him at all. Just being in protocol, enjoying the natural dynamic between us was unreal. The sexual chemistry was fueled by things most would never understand. I was still busy trying to mend a broken heart and I also knew my submissive friend, although a hot roll, would be consumed by my desire and too immature to meet my needs long term.... we fucked, we played, we soared and he left.

Nothing comes close to this. Still I'm undecided because even when I encounter a submissive boi he must be strong in character, intelligent, sturdy and sane. Thus far I encountered a lot of serious emotional baggage or because of my experience curious hook-ups. I am not a weekend warrior... I'm intense and I must prepare you & me for the journey. A little whippy spanky does nothing for me. I just havent found the right connection.

So weatherboi I understand where you are coming from and your desire to honor the divine feminine this way. Nothing teaches you or evolves your masculinity more then this IMO. There are women that "fit" this naturally and if you tap into that, find her, then you are a very lucky boi. Don't give a shit about what others think. Chances are they will not understand. You make change by example.

[Spirit Dancer]

weatherboi
What a wonderful idea for a thread and topic to enlighten, such wonderful responses thus far. In my journey I currently am femme top, who has always had an Alpha Energy and learned that while trying to be a submissive to a wonderful Syr. He taught me many lesson during the time we shared. The most important one never let anyone take away who you are, the gift of energy that you and your MS share is an amazing soul dance of reflective energy, those who don't understand, judge or belittle that energetic dance simply are missing a beautiful soul connection.
In my life I've walked away from friendships that judged me, now although I'm an Alpha Femme and Top, my relationship now is with my Syr. Do I submit to Hym yes in everyway but that is how we started our Soul Energy and I evolved into what was already in me. Our relationship now is Hy is still my Syr, and allows my Alpha Energy into our relationship. Hy isn't a switch, but with Syr, I guess I'm the switch. Together we nourish each other and the energy we share. It can be complex, but that's for another thread.

[weatherboi]

This post was very nice. You seem like you would be a kind femdom.

Originally Posted by Sachita

ok, :::::deep breath:::: I am at a crossroads in my life and having just turned 52 (lol- I know I don't look it!) I am fearless. Must be the gray hair!

I've thought about this a lot lately. A very brief synopsis is I began my femdom journey over 20 years ago. It was inspired by my spirituality... the many faces of the Goddess and feminine power. I refused to adopt societies feminine roles and ideals. I am a natural alpha femme. It's part of my essence. Sexuality was magic to me. When I first discovered BDSM my heart leaped. There was something there. I could feel it and that began a very long journey, many paths and ultimately living the lifestyle 24/7. My world was magnificent and animated. People would come to home and thought they walked into another world. I felt adored and worshiped but after a time i wanted more. I was attracted to butch energy, masculine and yet submissive. It was so hard to find the right dynamic and I often settled. In fact I stepped out of my femdom world completely and dated no one for maybe 4 years. When I decided to date I found BF and explored. I wasn't falling for this pseudo masculinity I saw in some butches. I see right through that shit. At the same time I was striving for some kind of balance. I had a few, very few relationships with transgendered people and struggled because I am naturally dominant and strong. They were constantly challenged by this and fought me tooth and nail. I grew sick of being called a dominatrix or mock me "Yes Goddess" every time i stood up or had an opinion.

this seems to be a common frustrating denominator amoungst many Femme Masters/Dommes/Slaves. I think talking about it is good.

My best day is to wake up, have coffee served, feel loved and truly adored. When one truly does exist to please me. It's not my ego it's my essence and it can't be just anyone looking to appease me. The dynamic is only presence when one thrives on serving me. I project, they receive and together we make magic. They long to relinquish control, it completes them and I long to feed on what they give me. It is the ultimate act of strength to step outside consensus morality and relinquish control to a powerful woman. It is an enhancement to your identity and not what most people think- a downgrade.

It's impossible for one that is not born to this world to understand how erotic and healing constructive humiliation is. They don't realize the responsibility that goes with mind fuckery and taking such an uncharted journey with another human being. Most have never soared that high or dove so deeply into darkness where the ultimate transformations take place.

It's complex, what I desire and the truth is I've settled. I thought I could have a strong butch, enjoy the whole old fashion BF dynamic and still be a spoiled princess but I'm sick and fucking tired of being misunderstood because I won't settle and because i want things. I'm sick and fucking tired of not having my needs met and then told I'm fucked up because of who I am. Tired of being so misunderstood.

Maybe two years ago a friend, naturally submissive boi came to visit. There wasn't anything feminine about him at all. Just being in protocol, enjoying the natural dynamic between us was unreal. The sexual chemistry was fueled by things most would never understand. I was still busy trying to mend a broken heart and I also knew my submissive friend, although a hot roll, would be consumed by my desire and too immature to meet my needs long term.... we fucked, we played, we soared and he left.

Nothing comes close to this. Still I'm undecided because even when I encounter a submissive boi he must be strong in character, intelligent, sturdy and sane. Thus far I encountered a lot of serious emotional baggage or because of my experience curious hook-ups. I am not a weekend warrior... I'm intense and I must prepare you & me for the journey. A little whippy spanky does nothing for me. I just havent found the right connection.

So weatherboi I understand where you are coming from and your desire to honor the divine feminine this way. Nothing teaches you or evolves your masculinity more then this IMO. There are women that "fit" this naturally and if you tap into that, find her, then you are a very lucky boi. Don't give a shit about what others think. Chances are they will not understand. You make change by example.