Femme Led Relationships and Trans/Butch/Femme Bottoms

[Kenna]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Hi everybody!!

I am opening this thread to discuss a topic that keeps getting brought up in some form or fashion throughout various threads.

I am a trans/submissive/bottom/guy, that is in his second Femme led relationship. My first started over 20 years ago. I left that relationship without any instincts. I moved forward topping every aspect of my life and destroyed my own trustful nature. I got therapy and here I am.

The great thing about our community is we have all participated in evolving gender identity in our own way. This is why the spectrum is so wide.

I keep running into those "less than" conversations about energy exchange and how there seems to be a stigma with this type of intimate bond. My experience so far has been mostly from a corner watching others. I have been able to dodge the "belittle me bullet" from outsiders but it is just a matter of time before somebody addresses me as "less than" because of my relationship style. Sometimes I think it all revolves around misogyny and maybe even some mysandry. Any thoughts on this particular subject?? Any other subjects/experiences that will add value would be greatly appreciated!

I appreciate this conversation. Thank you.

Misogny has a lot to do with it.... but also, some individuals are afraid of change or afraid of things that are done differently than what they consider "the norm". They attempt to force their beliefs on us, or scorn us for not being "normal"... maybe, inside they want to explore your type of relationship style, but are afraid of also being perceived as "less than"...so they quietly dream about it, but don't act on it, instead they continue to scorn those that do act on their inner self.

You talk of our own personal evolution of our gender identity...
I agree that there is a stigma about your preferred type of bond. Mostly, (coming from a "me & I" place), I think stigmas come about because the person imposing the stigma has fears, inhibitions, lack of education, self esteem issues, issues with how they were raised to believe, or are too self absorbed to understand that their way is not the only or best way to live. Sometimes, the stigma around your type of bond is directed at both the sub and top because those imposing the stigma try to force their perceptions & beliefs...or interject their fears without personally knowing the couple in question. Sadly, the stigma becomes a personal attack like what you describe as a bullet. I admire your strength to dodge that bullet.


(Please note... this is hard for me to explain, but I will try anyway...I use the term submissive in a different definition than you are describing... to me, my submissive means I "give in" unwillingly to someone I really don't want to be with, or to do something with them that they know I don't like or is a boundary of mine, but they make me submit anyway because "it's their way or nothing". In the past, I've submitted to save my little cousin and sister from harm...or I've submitted to "get it over with and them off of me". To me there are two different ways of being submissive; what I describe here, which holds a negative feeling for me... and the submissive energy you and others enjoy, which is a very positive energy. )

I don't consider myself a Femme Top... or a Femme Bottom... After being single for many years, I haven't been with anyone that I could explore being Femme Top with. I don't know how I feel about that, if I were given the chance. I'm still evolving...but, I've recently accepted my evolution as a Femme Middle (my own term, after struggling with my ID and perceptions of what other's think I am/should be). I am very comfortable with being Femme Middle because it gives me a sense of security I've never had. I have heard the term Femme Switch...this does not fit me either and isn't what I mean by Femme Middle.

I am far from weak and grit my teeth when it is implied that I am weak or "less than" or that I should take "second fiddle" to my partner of choice because they perceive themselves - or someone else perceives them - to be "the leader" of our relationship. I do not like to be submissive because of YEARS of being made to submit in a very negative way. Although, I have often been made to feel less than. Especially when I first came out and ID'd as Femme Bottom (because I didn't know about other ID's or how to evolve with my own)?

Maybe being made to feel less than is one reason why I reject being the positive submissive? (has anyone else ever felt that way?) I get very "hot under the collar" when I am treated like I'm less than or given less respect because I may possibly be submissive. It's a very big trigger point for me. Maybe because I was forced to be submissive as a child and young adult? Lately though, I've become very content with "owing" what makes me Femme Middle - a very sassy Femme Middle - and I finally take pride in "coming into my own". Femme Middle means something very special to me. I'm not sure if I could be Femme Top... but do respect and admire those that are, as well as their partners. I have so little experience with a partner - after being single for the most part since 1996 - that it's hard for me to explore my gender and preferences, or to judge what I am comfortable with or not. I do have boundaries, mostly to do with PTSD. I have wondered if I am Stone Femme? But for now, Femme Middle fits me very well.

I am very happy for you that you have found an intimate bond that you can completely enjoy and give yourself to. By what I describe above, I don't want you to think I would EVER belittle you in any way. I'm just having trouble finding my words is all.

Maybe one day, I will find a partner that I will willingly and without inhibitions be submissive to? Your positive kind of submissive energy. Maybe they will enjoy my being Femme Middle and I can explore being submissive without fear of being judged or "put into a little box" of their description of Femme? Maybe, if we both feel safe doing so, they won't mind me exploring being Femme Top? I certainly enjoy "giving" - submitting to a partner is a form of giving, as well as giving them specific attentions. I'm not sure about being in a Femme Led Relationship...although I am very sassy and independent, however it plays out, it must be a two way energy and relationship and NO "giving in" just because I felt I had to. I would enjoy finding a partner that would enjoy my gender and energy in the way you so affectionately describe. I will always continue to reject stigmas, bullets and little gray boxes with my sassy Femme way. Someone else's fears do not need to hurt me or become my own.

Being placed in someone's little gray box with their forced views written all over the walls, will make me fight like a caged wild Tigress. I hate little gray boxes and strongly disagree with/push away those that force me into their box.

There are times when I feel Top... but don't act on it because I am very happy being Femme Middle.


PS... I am Femme... but many of my likes and hobbies are considered "too masculine" for me. Especially with me liking all things mechanical and working in the construction field as a Forman and Boss for many years. I get very pissed at being forced into the a box filled with misogyny about "femme's shouldn't do that", "femme's can't do that because they will complain about breaking nails", "that's not how I like my Femmes, they should be frilly and fru fru", etc etc... It's the kind of person that forces me into that misogynistic box that I would LOVE to go Femme Top on!! I am Femme, hear me ROAR!

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Sweet

I appreciate this conversation. Thank you.

Misogny has a lot to do with it.... but also, some individuals are afraid of change or afraid of things that are done differently than what they consider "the norm". They attempt to force their beliefs on us, or scorn us for not being "normal"... maybe, inside they want to explore your type of relationship style, but are afraid of also being perceived as "less than"...so they quietly dream about it, but don't act on it, instead they continue to scorn those that do act on their inner self.

You talk of our own personal evolution of our gender identity...
I agree that there is a stigma about your preferred type of bond. Mostly, (coming from a "me & I" place), I think stigmas come about because the person imposing the stigma has fears, inhibitions, lack of education, self esteem issues, issues with how they were raised to believe, or are too self absorbed to understand that their way is not the only or best way to live. Sometimes, the stigma around your type of bond is directed at both the sub and top because those imposing the stigma try to force their perceptions & beliefs...or interject their fears without personally knowing the couple in question. Sadly, the stigma becomes a personal attack like what you describe as a bullet. I admire your strength to dodge that bullet.


(Please note... this is hard for me to explain, but I will try anyway...I use the term submissive in a different definition than you are describing... to me, my submissive means I "give in" unwillingly to someone I really don't want to be with, or to do something with them that they know I don't like or is a boundary of mine, but they make me submit anyway because "it's their way or nothing". In the past, I've submitted to save my little cousin and sister from harm...or I've submitted to "get it over with and them off of me". To me there are two different ways of being submissive; what I describe here, which holds a negative feeling for me... and the submissive energy you and others enjoy, which is a very positive energy. )

I don't consider myself a Femme Top... or a Femme Bottom... After being single for many years, I haven't been with anyone that I could explore being Femme Top with. I don't know how I feel about that, if I were given the chance. I'm still evolving...but, I've recently accepted my evolution as a Femme Middle (my own term, after struggling with my ID and perceptions of what other's think I am/should be). I am very comfortable with being Femme Middle because it gives me a sense of security I've never had. I have heard the term Femme Switch...this does not fit me either and isn't what I mean by Femme Middle.

I am far from weak and grit my teeth when it is implied that I am weak or "less than" or that I should take "second fiddle" to my partner of choice because they perceive themselves - or someone else perceives them - to be "the leader" of our relationship. I do not like to be submissive because of YEARS of being made to submit in a very negative way. Although, I have often been made to feel less than. Especially when I first came out and ID'd as Femme Bottom (because I didn't know about other ID's or how to evolve with my own)?

Maybe being made to feel less than is one reason why I reject being the positive submissive? (has anyone else ever felt that way?) I get very "hot under the collar" when I am treated like I'm less than or given less respect because I may possibly be submissive. It's a very big trigger point for me. Maybe because I was forced to be submissive as a child and young adult? Lately though, I've become very content with "owing" what makes me Femme Middle - a very sassy Femme Middle - and I finally take pride in "coming into my own". Femme Middle means something very special to me. I'm not sure if I could be Femme Top... but do respect and admire those that are, as well as their partners. I have so little experience with a partner - after being single for the most part since 1996 - that it's hard for me to explore my gender and preferences, or to judge what I am comfortable with or not. I do have boundaries, mostly to do with PTSD. I have wondered if I am Stone Femme? But for now, Femme Middle fits me very well.

I am very happy for you that you have found an intimate bond that you can completely enjoy and give yourself to. By what I describe above, I don't want you to think I would EVER belittle you in any way. I'm just having trouble finding my words is all.

Maybe one day, I will find a partner that I will willingly and without inhibitions be submissive to? Your positive kind of submissive energy. Maybe they will enjoy my being Femme Middle and I can explore being submissive without fear of being judged or "put into a little box" of their description of Femme? Maybe, if we both feel safe doing so, they won't mind me exploring being Femme Top? I certainly enjoy "giving" - submitting to a partner is a form of giving, as well as giving them specific attentions. I'm not sure about being in a Femme Led Relationship...although I am very sassy and independent, however it plays out, it must be a two way energy and relationship and NO "giving in" just because I felt I had to. I would enjoy finding a partner that would enjoy my gender and energy in the way you so affectionately describe. I will always continue to reject stigmas, bullets and little gray boxes with my sassy Femme way. Someone else's fears do not need to hurt me or become my own.

Being placed in someone's little gray box with their forced views written all over the walls, will make me fight like a caged wild Tigress. I hate little gray boxes and strongly disagree with/push away those that force me into their box.

There are times when I feel Top... but don't act on it because I am very happy being Femme Middle.


PS... I am Femme... but many of my likes and hobbies are considered "too masculine" for me. Especially with me liking all things mechanical and working in the construction field as a Forman and Boss for many years. I get very pissed at being forced into the a box filled with misogyny about "femme's shouldn't do that", "femme's can't do that because they will complain about breaking nails", "that's not how I like my Femmes, they should be frilly and fru fru", etc etc... It's the kind of person that forces me into that misogynistic box that I would LOVE to go Femme Top on!! I am Femme, hear me ROAR!

Sweet? I don't think being forced to submit to *anything* as a child/adult equates to submissive as it pertains to this conversation.

I totally love your posts and what you have to say, but it is precisely this kind of thing that perpetuates false information about what a sub/boi actually IS.

It is dangerous to blur the line, don't you think?

[weatherboi]

Thank you Superfemme!!

I wasn't really sure how to word my response and you did it perfectly. When first discussing my dynamic with my cousin I found she was coming from a vanilla lack of knowledge perspective and assumed just this. I will never forget how terribly upset she got over it and how I spent the afternoon educating her on just the opposite of her perspective. Her blurred view created her much anguish. Now she spends lots of time asking questions about our dynamic. She loves loves loves my Ms!!!

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Sweet? I don't think being forced to submit to *anything* as a child/adult equate to submissive as it pertains to this conversation.

I totally love your posts and what you have to say, but it is precisely this kind of thing that perpetuates false information about what a sub/boi actually IS.

It is dangerous to blur the line, don't you think?

[Kenna]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Sweet? I don't think being forced to submit to *anything* as a child/adult equates to submissive as it pertains to this conversation.

I totally love your posts and what you have to say, but it is precisely this kind of thing that perpetuates false information about what a sub/boi actually IS.

It is dangerous to blur the line, don't you think?

So no one misinterprets my tone or awkward struggle to find the right words, this comes from a place of total respect and dignity for everyone here.

At first, I didn't understand your post... and I still may not? But, I wasn't trying to focus my discussion on the negative submissive ways or twist things about, or blur any lines. I was attempting to explain where I was coming from, and to offer my support for sub/bois that enjoy their positive dynamic and for their Ms. I over explained myself, I understand that now. I also was not attempting to perpetuate any false information or stigma. I was trying to voice a distaste for exactly that. Yes, I do believe it is dangerous to blur the line and I meant no disrespect at all. I do agree that being forced to submit to *anything* as a child/adult does not pertain to this conversation. I did mention that I was having trouble finding the right words... and did mention that I haven't had the opportunity to enjoy the positive submissiveness of any relationship or dynamic... I was trying to show respect for those that do enjoy and partake.

I attempted to focus the majority of my post on being made to feel "less than" and how that makes me (and others) reject exploring their desires to be sub. But apparently, I've stepped on toes or over stepped my bounds. I stand scalded and will gladly and with dignity learn from it.

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Thank you Superfemme!!

I wasn't really sure how to word my response and you did it perfectly. When first discussing my dynamic with my cousin I found she was coming from a vanilla lack of knowledge perspective and assumed just this. I will never forget how terribly upset she got over it and how I spent the afternoon educating her on just the opposite of her perspective. Her blurred view created her much anguish. Now she spends lots of time asking questions about our dynamic. She loves loves loves my Ms!!!

Yes, in some ways, I do have a vanilla lack of knowledge or view... what I like to describe as being naive, and sheltered, which sometimes comes from lacking the ability to interact with someone of quality in my real-time environment like yourself and your Ms. However, just that statement "vanilla lack of knowledge" makes me feel that somehow... although unwittingly... my being vanilla is "less than" and my views not considered valuable...even if naive and lacking in something. However, I do not have a blurred view of perspectives and consider my perspectives very clear... I like to organize my thoughts/perspectives into "concepts" ... "concept A is =", "concept B is ="... I also keep my way of "being" separate within my thought process or while processing new knowledge when trying to understand and be accepting to someone else's way of enjoying their lives. I do apologize - but not grovel- to anyone I offended.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Sweet

So no one misinterprets my tone or awkward struggle to find the right words, this comes from a place of total respect and dignity for everyone here.

At first, I didn't understand your post... and I still may not? But, I wasn't trying to focus my discussion on the negative submissive ways or twist things about, or blur any lines. I was attempting to explain where I was coming from, and to offer my support for sub/bois that enjoy their positive dynamic and for their Ms. I over explained myself, I understand that now. I also was not attempting to perpetuate any false information or stigma. I was trying to voice a distaste for exactly that. Yes, I do believe it is dangerous to blur the line and I meant no disrespect at all. I do agree that being forced to submit to *anything* as a child/adult does not pertain to this conversation. I did mention that I was having trouble finding the right words... and did mention that I haven't had the opportunity to enjoy the positive submissiveness of any relationship or dynamic... I was trying to show respect for those that do enjoy and partake.

I attempted to focus the majority of my post on being made to feel "less than" and how that makes me (and others) reject exploring their desires to be sub. But apparently, I've stepped on toes or over stepped my bounds. I stand scalded and will gladly and with dignity learn from it.



Yes, in some ways, I do have a vanilla lack of knowledge or view... what I like to describe as being naive, and sheltered, which sometimes comes from lacking the ability to interact with someone of quality in my real-time environment like yourself and your Ms. However, just that statement "vanilla lack of knowledge" makes me feel that somehow... although unwittingly... my being vanilla is "less than" and my views not considered valuable...even if naive and lacking in something. However, I do not have a blurred view of perspectives and consider my perspectives very clear... I like to organize my thoughts/perspectives into "concepts" ... "concept A is =", "concept B is ="... I also keep my way of "being" separate within my thought process or while processing new knowledge when trying to understand and be accepting to someone else's way of enjoying their lives. I do apologize - but not grovel- to anyone I offended.

I know you were coming from a really good place Sweet, and your tone is great. I hope understand that nobody's toes were stepped on in you post, because I don't want you to think that.

I was pointing out how it read. No worries, ok?

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by Sweet

Yes, in some ways, I do have a vanilla lack of knowledge or view... what I like to describe as being naive, and sheltered, which sometimes comes from lacking the ability to interact with someone of quality in my real-time environment like yourself and your Ms. However, just that statement "vanilla lack of knowledge" makes me feel that somehow... although unwittingly... my being vanilla is "less than" and my views not considered valuable...even if naive and lacking in something. However, I do not have a blurred view of perspectives and consider my perspectives very clear... I like to organize my thoughts/perspectives into "concepts" ... "concept A is =", "concept B is ="... I also keep my way of "being" separate within my thought process or while processing new knowledge when trying to understand and be accepting to someone else's way of enjoying their lives. I do apologize - but not grovel- to anyone I offended.

This statement I made was specific to my experience with my cousin not pertaining to you. I don't know you so I can not say what you lack or don't. I should have made that clearer and I apologize. I usually separate my thoughts with a space. I apologize for any misunderstanding. I will say that this is not what I experience in "leather" elements but other elements. Make sense sweet?

[WingsOnFire]

I can totally relate to this subject... I am a Switch. I began my relationship with my Daddy as his babygirl.. We evolved into a D/s D/g relationship.

My Daddy is an FTM and is also a Switch. We both have a dominant and a submissive side. He is predominantly my Daddy/Sir, I am his babygirl/submissive. But I am also Mistress to his submissive boy side.

I have had to watch my lesbian friends look of disgust when I explain why I call my partner "he". Add to that trying to explain D/s roles I very rarely will explain I also have a submissive boy... I refuse to subject him to anyone who will put him down or make him feel bad. Of course I also live in the bible belt.

If my friends judge my relationship ANY PART of my relationship I let them fade into my past as I don't have time for people like that. My boy is very special to me and I will protect him with my life... Just as Daddy protects his babygirl with his life. My two best (straight) friends know about my submissive boy and I know they will always be respectful toward my relationship.

I have not discussed this openly much because being a Switch is often looked up negatively as well.

I really am happy to see the positiveness this community is showing on Butch Femme Planet. I am pleased that Daddy and I have joined this site... And I am very glad you started this thread weatherboi.. I am so glad you felt secure enough to discuss how you feel and how others have made you feel when they are disrespectful to your Ms.

I look forward to reading further comments on this subject.

Becca

[Toughy]

One day hanging with a bunch of butch folk over a beer and a pool table the conversation turned to Femme Tops and butch bottoms. Some of those Butch Top folk are doing the posturing, chest bumping, knuckle dragging crap about no self respecting butch would get fucked or beat............<big ole snort>

Well....being who I am........I kinda smiled and said....

I bottom to a Femme Top and have been for a few years now.

<dead silence>

....you fill in the blanks....

One of the things I love most about the kink community (in general) lives in the idea that kink and sexuality have nothing to do with gender.


weatherboi...........please oh please tell anyone who insults you about being a bottom to come talk to me.............please................laughin...... .....please............

One of the things I know is this........and I was reminded this by an old friend who I saw in a cafe the other day.......

bottoms run the fuck

[weatherboi]

Hi Becca-
Thanks for taking the time to post about your relationship and experiences. Evolution is great between 2 people. Switching is cool. I have never been involved in a relationship where we switched. I think it would be hard for me to Top my Ms. Confusing for me. Now don't get me wrong I can reciprocate fucking her but I will never be topping her. Make sense? Has switching ever been a struggle in your D/g dynamic?

Originally Posted by MidnightBlueEyes

I can totally relate to this subject... I am a Switch. I began my relationship with my Daddy as his babygirl.. We evolved into a D/s D/g relationship.

My Daddy is an FTM and is also a Switch. We both have a dominant and a submissive side. He is predominantly my Daddy/Sir, I am his babygirl/submissive. But I am also Mistress to his submissive boy side.

I have had to watch my lesbian friends look of disgust when I explain why I call my partner "he". Add to that trying to explain D/s roles I very rarely will explain I also have a submissive boy... I refuse to subject him to anyone who will put him down or make him feel bad. Of course I also live in the bible belt.

If my friends judge my relationship ANY PART of my relationship I let them fade into my past as I don't have time for people like that. My boy is very special to me and I will protect him with my life... Just as Daddy protects his babygirl with his life. My two best (straight) friends know about my submissive boy and I know they will always be respectful toward my relationship.

I have not discussed this openly much because being a Switch is often looked up negatively as well.

I really am happy to see the positiveness this community is showing on Butch Femme Planet. I am pleased that Daddy and I have joined this site... And I am very glad you started this thread weatherboi.. I am so glad you felt secure enough to discuss how you feel and how others have made you feel when they are disrespectful to your Ms.

I look forward to reading further comments on this subject.

Becca

[sharkchomp]

Weatherboi

There's alot of judgemental people in the world. It's just plain ignorance and perhaps laziness too. Not to mention a lot of assumptions. The truth is, perception isn't always reality.

The perception is that bottom/sub boy = weak but the reality is bottom/sub boy, girl, femme, woman, man, butch, etc etc = a very strong person. There are people who just can't get past their perceptions and nothing anyone says, even with the most eloquent explanation, will never change that.

When someone says that you are weak what they are really saying is that they are not (even if they never verbally say that they are not weak, that is silently implied. This line of thinking is judgemental and seperatist. It puts you in one corner and them [supposedly] on their shining pedestal.

Who knows exactly why they don't get it or don't accept the depth of strength it takes to submit or bottom to another, regardless of gender. The truth is that line of thinking is their perception. I suggest the next time someone wants to put you in said corner, you merely smile. And in that smile, decide if they are someone worth your time and effort to educate.

And remember what the truth is when you hear this line of ignorance - that their ignorance is no true reflection of you. You are no less of a person, you are not a weak sub/bottom. Hold your head up high, with dignity and class for your journey has been unique to yourself.

My best
~~~shark~~~~~~~~

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlueEyes

I can totally relate to this subject... I am a Switch. I began my relationship with my Daddy as his babygirl.. We evolved into a D/s D/g relationship.

My Daddy is an FTM and is also a Switch. We both have a dominant and a submissive side. He is predominantly my Daddy/Sir, I am his babygirl/submissive. But I am also Mistress to his submissive boy side.

I have had to watch my lesbian friends look of disgust when I explain why I call my partner "he". Add to that trying to explain D/s roles I very rarely will explain I also have a submissive boy... I refuse to subject him to anyone who will put him down or make him feel bad. Of course I also live in the bible belt.

If my friends judge my relationship ANY PART of my relationship I let them fade into my past as I don't have time for people like that. My boy is very special to me and I will protect him with my life... Just as Daddy protects his babygirl with his life. My two best (straight) friends know about my submissive boy and I know they will always be respectful toward my relationship.

I have not discussed this openly much because being a Switch is often looked up negatively as well.

I really am happy to see the positiveness this community is showing on Butch Femme Planet. I am pleased that Daddy and I have joined this site... And I am very glad you started this thread weatherboi.. I am so glad you felt secure enough to discuss how you feel and how others have made you feel when they are disrespectful to your Ms.

I look forward to reading further comments on this subject.

Becca

I think this is so cool and so sexually/spiritually evolved. Understanding the aspects of yourself, defining them, giving them complete identities and compartments within yourself. Then finding one who loves you, trust, etc that supports allowing that "person" to emerge, play/explore and realize its just one aspect of you.

I think for me I need one who is naturally submissive most of the time, however I am also ok with hym/her developing other aspects when the need arrives.

[Massive]

Originally Posted by ravfem

i've run into this since my first days out in the local kink community here in SC, over 10 years ago. The whole "she is sooooo not a top" judgmental crowd, who then whine about being judged by nillas.

Interestingly, it's been directed at bio-female bottoms/subs/slaves just as often as i've heard it in regards to male or butch tops/doms/owners....actually, now that i think about it, i've heard it more often at female bottoms than anyone else, but that's probably only because around here there aren't that many male or butch bottoms who are active in the groups.

i just know i dislike hearing the judgement, no matter who it's directed at. And yes, i partook of the judgements myself at first, but my Leather Mama taught me long ago that one never knows the dynamics involved in a relationship unless you're privy to it, so best keep your judgements to yourself.

Who am i to say who is or isn't anything??

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Nice thoughts ravfem-

Well from my knees experience none of the Doms of any gender or slaves I have met have treated me or any person they came into contact this way. I am talking about the queer butch femme community that does not participate in our dynamic. When I am with my Ms at a leather event I am boy and gender doesnt matter.

I have a hard time agreeing with you on the point that femme slaves/subs/bottoms and trans/butch Tops are scrutinized as often as a trans/butch bottoms and the Femme/Female Tops that lead them. I think that femme/female slaves/subs/bottoms and their trans/butch Tops/Daddys are much more widely accepted amoungst the masses.

I've been thinking about this tonight, and yes, rav is My little one and babygirl, so it's partly, but not all of the reason I chose to reply to those two posts at this point, but in My experiences over the years, I too have seen the denigration of femme slaves/subs/bottoms as well as trans/butch Tops And Femme/Female Tops as often as I've seen the dismissiveness towards myself as a butch-bottom and other trans/butch-bottoms/subs. (repeating Myself again I know, but I think this does need to be repeated)
Yes femme slaves/subs/bottoms are more widely accepted as are their trans/butch Tops/Daddys than Femme Tops and their butch-bottoms both in the Leather and butch-femme community.
For Me personally I feel that this does stem from a lack of respect for others relationships and also a simple lack of understanding of the dynamic, I still remember to this day being out with My original Master and having a butch I had known for years talking down to Me when hy realised that I was Her submissive, it made Me cringe because I had believed I had had hys respect and that he had also had respect for Her. Her response was to strip this butch right down, verbally and very loudly, telling hym She thought hys views and concept of My place in Her life as being 'less than' hys sub-femme as ridiculous as hys sub and myself had the same level of 'power' in our relationships, needless to say, She never spoke to hym again, and neither have I, even after I no longer served Her as a sub/bottom. Then again, after My service to Her had ended, and I was Top/Dom to a femme-sub, this same butches small clique of friends was extremely dismissive and snide to Me and My sub ... so what I'm basically trying to say here is I've seen this happen from both sides, maybe My being switch means I will always see this more? I'm not sure, maybe I'll see both more and less now I have a babygirl/sub who I care for deeply and I am her Syr and Daddy?
I'm not sure what's down the road in this regard, all I can say, and say with My hand on My heart, is if I see this at all in the Leather and butch-femme communities, I will come down on them like all hell has broken loose and confront whoever it may be with the simple fact that they, regardless of who they are or how long they've been in either community, have no goddamn right to judge Me, My babygirl, or anyone else, be they trans/butch-bottom/sub, femme/slave/sub, Femme/Female Top or any other kind of dynamic that they dismiss as being 'wrong' because they deem it so as they are too ignorant or narrow-minded to just accept the dynamic for what it is, a loving, sharing, caring bond for someone who chooses to submit themselves, completely and utterly, to the Dominance of another.
I hope I haven't rambled too much and have been as clear as I can about My views here, it's after midnight and My brain has a tendency to go AWOL sometimes at this time of day.
Thank you again for starting this thread weatherboi. I have nothing but love and respect for both you and your Ms.
(I owe you LOTS more cadburys mini eggs I believe Lady S because your boi here's not only a brave soul for bringing this topic to light, he is also, from what I've read, very good at what he does)

Just another thing that occurred to Me, our Leather community is based largely on respect, how can others expect to receive respect themselves when they choose to disrespect anothers dynamic???

[Toughy]

laughin.............

it's amazing what the statement 'bottoms run the fuck' will illicit from some folks.........

and the funny part is.............we actually are saying the same thing from a different perspective.............

sometimes I find the idea of 'humble' to be missing in a few Top/Dom/Domme/Master folks ...........

personally........as a Top/Dom.........I am ever humbled that anyone would give to Me the gift of their submission, the gift of their pain for My pleasure, their time for My pleasure and the trust that I will read her correctly and know when to crank it up and when to slow it down....I am the Conductor of the dance and power exchange of Top and bottom. I lead and you follow and together we create the journey.

[Toughy]

So many put my M/s relationships down--you don't really RUN THE FUCK, your slave could stop that at any time, well, you're still in a butch/femme relationship, we know who really runs the show----shut the fuck up, you don't really know what the dynamic is especially when you don't LIVE IT but rather read about it and philosphize about it, and can't even stay awake in a workshop about it.

I wanted to comment on this. First...........don't tell me to shut the fuck up because I live in the butch/femme world and I do D/s M/s differently than you do. I know exactly what My dynamic is..........and frankly I don't give a shit what your dynamic looks like. It's yours.

I live the dynamic for however long I want to live and if I only live it 12/6 it makes My dynamic no less valid than your dynamic.

This is a discussion about butch bottom, femme Top and kink and as such has no place for such derisive comments directed toward another viewpoint. A viewpoint that made no negative comments about other dynamics. Fact is we agree on most of those dynamics.

There are less derisive ways to talk about keyboard Tops/Dom(mes)/Masters. More constructive ways to talk about how us kink folk move forward in the internet age.

[adorable]

I know I shouldn't do this - this is one of those train wreck moments - but damn if it doesn't always happen in the good threads....

I don't believe that Rope was speaking to you directly Toughy. Unless you fell asleep in a workshop. How I read that was he was saying that is what he has heard OTHERS say about dynamics (specifically hys) that no one could understand because they don't actually live his lifestyle.

[Jess]

While reading through this thread, I keep stopping and scratching my head just a little as I am trying to understand why it was placed in the gender, label, id forum instead of in the BDSM forum. I think because so very much of the "issue" that is originally written about is very specific to the "power exchange" relationship, which is more readily accepted and discussed within the "power exchange" community, it may be better served being *there*.

I think that in the gender/ id spectrum aspect of this subject many folks in the b-f community are a tad rigid in what their minds eye creates relating to how butches and femmes "should" interact with one another. This goes all the way to their entire vision of what butch and femme mean to them. Adjective or noun? It goes to some very core issues for some folks and with terminology constantly evolving as we ( as a part of the greater LGBT community) are becoming more self aware and more socially conscious, we either buck the changes or roll with them and hopefully grow a little on that journey.

I don't particularly see the feminine partner in a relationship "leading" as something exclusive to BDSM relationships. We ( probably) ALL have people we know, where the "woman" in the relationship "pulls the strings", as it were. The old jokes of the "taming of the shrew" or poor uncle Jake... his wife keeps him on a short leash.

Frankly, in most relationships however the dynamic of decision making, nurturing, income earning etc., is based on who does what best and whatever works for each individual couple is just what works best. I don't see a man/ male id / masculine woman ( either of them) as "less than" for choosing to express the more a) nurturing b ) domestic c) gentle or d) ( insert any word that is usually a descriptive for the traditional "home maker" role) aspects of themselves. I think this is where we can often get really twisted in how we view our peers. Too often, it can really screw with how we view ourselves as well.

In my experience in the Leather/ BDSM communities, there was far more acceptance and APPRECIATION of the roles chosen by individuals and their dynamics as a "couple" or as part of a "family". That small portion of the greater community seems to have for the most part, worked through most of the possibilities of what relationships "can be" and do not in general "judge" another's kink ( or turn-on, or whatever floats their boat). They seem to get it, when it comes down to "whatever makes you guys happy". Of course, with that said... YES, there are folks even in that very small but diverse community who still need to one up someone else or make judgements about others to make themselves feel better. What I have come to realize about all of that, is that it really comes down to individuals and not the whole community.

Personally, when I see an obvious "power exchange" that has been "chosen" , I see far more than the gender preference. It makes no difference to me where the individuals fall on the spectrum of gender portrayal. Actually one of the most interesting aspects of it all for me, is "where" individuals find their power core and how it chooses to be expressed. Ex: I have a friend who is a dominant gay man who prefers to Top from a Dominant Female space and prefers to dominate/ top masculine id'ed female/boi bottoms. His love life, however, is more of a "vanilla" gay man. He also maintains a Daddy/ girl relationship with a straight woman ( who happens to be a Femme Top) that is strictly platonic. So, where we find our, or express our "power exchange", can be and often is totally removed from where we "live", so to speak.

I dropped the Syr from my nickname here as I wanted to be able to discuss a wider range of subjects without being judged or pigeonholed as being "one of those Leather folks". I also dropped it because I am no longer as active as was in the Leather community. I no longer needed to "define" myself as primarily residing in that realm. While the exchange of power energy is still a huge turn-on , it does not limit or shape my interactions in the rest of my world.

I see this issue as more of one of self acceptance and finding your "bliss" as it goes. If you are happy, then have at it!!! Devil be damned if others feel a need to judge your path to happiness and wholeness.

[weatherboi]

hi Toughy-

for me, the term 'bottoms run the fuck' illicits a 'slap in the face' so to speak to traditional kink values. it to me 'dumb downs' the idea of the power exchange. an oxymoron in phrase and theory. from my own perspective which is not the same perspective you come from. this works well in my relationship.

from my knees i say i can't/don't equate the theories my Ms or her Peers have to the level of humbleness in their hearts. my experience is they shine with great strength and that humbles me.

Originally Posted by Toughy

laughin.............

it's amazing what the statement 'bottoms run the fuck' will illicit from some folks.........

and the funny part is.............we actually are saying the same thing from a different perspective.............

sometimes I find the idea of 'humble' to be missing in a few Top/Dom/Domme/Master folks ...........

personally........as a Top/Dom.........I am ever humbled that anyone would give to Me the gift of their submission, the gift of their pain for My pleasure, their time for My pleasure and the trust that I will read her correctly and know when to crank it up and when to slow it down....I am the Conductor of the dance and power exchange of Top and bottom. I lead and you follow and together we create the journey.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Jess

While reading through this thread, I keep stopping and scratching my head just a little as I am trying to understand why it was placed in the gender, label, id forum instead of in the BDSM forum. I think because so very much of the "issue" that is originally written about is very specific to the "power exchange" relationship, which is more readily accepted and discussed within the "power exchange" community, it may be better served being *there*.

Hi, Jess. I can't speak to most of your post, but I can tell you that I appreciate this thread being out in the wider forums, so to speak, since I don't read the BDSM forums and would have missed out on it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I've been Mama in several relationships with boys, one a Transman, several of them Butches; I've also informally been Mama to several bois/boys and girls/grrls, not as part of a sexual relationship but in an extended family way during times that they needed extra support. I am most decidedly not Leather, nor a part of the BDSM community; none of my Mama/b/g relationships have been about Leather, BDSM, or kink (not even the sexual ones).

The gender issues I as a Mama have run into in the community have been from Butches and Transmen, all of them Daddies or Syrs/Sirs who were... oh, a polite way to describe their reactions to me... um... highly threatened by the idea that anyone at all might think they would allow a woman (interestingly, they ALL insisted on referring to me as a woman even when I said I preferred to be called a femme) to dominate them in any way. The impression I got was that it was extremely threatening to them to allow themselves even to seem to be vulnerable to strong female energy; they were only comfortable if they were clearly in control of and dominating that energy.

I always took this to be an issue that was individual to the people in question, rather than an issue that was widespread in the butch/femme community. I see from reading this thread that I may have been wrong, and that there seem to be way more people (of all gender IDs) who are threatened than I previously realized.

In my experience, put-downs and disrespect usually come from people trying to mask their own vulnerabilities and fears behind scathing derision. I'm sorry that any of us ever has to endure that... and I'm also sorry that anyone has to feel so threatened, so insignificant and frightened, that they would only feel safe by putting others down and treating their relationships with disrespect. That's really sad that so many of us might be so badly hurt in that way, yanno?

About switching, it's been my personal experience that my relationships are received easily and treated with respect by people who know that we switch between Daddy/girl and Mama/boy. I suspect, having read the thread, that it might not be such an easy thing if Gryph and I were to say that Gryph was only my boy and that I was the dominant one in the relationship.

The truth is that we're both dominant and--at the same time--we're both equals. I know that sounds complicated but actually it's the simplest relationship I've ever had. We both check in quite frequently to make sure the other's needs are met, and we're both always willing to compromise to make the other happy.

I think maybe what makes other people comfortable with our relationship structure is that we meet not just one but two stereotypes at once: some people see the dominant butch, and some see the equal feminist lesbians.

We just see each other.

[Jess]

Hi there weatherboi,

When I made the statement regarding "where" to place this thread, it was because at that point in this thread it was very obviously being geared toward a "power exchange" relationship and every response made reflected the M/s D/s variance in those relationships. It also seemed very "vanilla" unfriendly in that a couple statements were made referring to "vanilla" folks and felt kinda "othering". The use of the terms "led", "bottom" are specific terms stemming from the Leather/ BDSM world, hence why it feels geared toward that.

Any relationship ( in my opinion) that reads as "led" as opposed to equal is one of some degree of dominance and submission. It can be called M/s, Daddy/girl, Mommy/boy, monkey/ banana. The difference is in the varying degrees of submission and accepted dominance. My hope was to perhaps open this discussion up to an audience who may share the interest in the gender dismissive specific aspect of relationships and not make it only comfortable to Leather and BDSM folks. I hope that makes sense. It was never intended to disregard it, as I DO believe it a very timely and important discussion for some of us to be having.

I am sorry to have used those old "mysogynistic" phrases to have illustrated the point I think we were both trying to make. THOSE are the types of responses it sounds like you have been receiving that really suck. I simply used them to help you understand that I do get what you are saying.

The reason I thought it about self acceptance is in the viewing of our lives by others, we may never ever find a time or place where folks ( in general) do just "get it", moreover, honor and respect us. I find it highly unlikely that anyone can " change this style of thinking", when others are so dead set in how they view themselves in the order of things. They only see "you" as some skewed reflection of how they see their own "role" in life.

Here is what I see, if I may. I see you as a strong, intelligent, masculine female/trans energy who "lives" to serve, respect and honor a strong intelligent feminine woman . I see nothing at all "less than" in how you choose to express those desires, in either the Leather world or the "rest of the world". I just see a person who has felt slighted by someone who doesn't get what you have with your partner or your Ms.

I think ALL relationships have some degree of an exchange of "power" within them. I think there is a clear equality in chosen M/s and D/s relationships ( if they are healthy and negotiated and lived wholly). I do not think a bottom runs the fuck, nor do I think a Top runs the fuck. If there aren't expressly negotiated boundaries ( do's and don'ts) then it is no longer consensual. It is simply one person being domineering over another. One can be a top or bottom without having the other present, however, without the other fulfilling their chosen role, it makes for a pretty boring scene. Either party can stop a scene just as quickly as the other. In that, they are equal and equally necessary to creating that space. This thought can be extrapolated to the power exchange dynamic in the larger relationship, not just scene specific.

For me personally, it becomes tricky to have discussions relating to Leather/ BDSM dynamics in non Leather/ BDSM spaces as it is neither safe nor respectful of non BDSM folks. For some folks, for example, even the use of the phrase "without permission" regarding what one person in a relationship can do, can be seen as very offensive or abusive. This can very quickly shut them down to the deeper issue being discussed ( which is about gender and roles within a relationship). It's akin to going to a public restaurant and using your slave as an ashtray. It becomes neither safe for you or your slave and definitely non-consensual for anyone else trying to just have dinner. Does that make sense? Most old school ( Old Guard) Leather folk I know actually never make public display of their proclivities unless in Leather space. It is part of a long history of abuse that they have evolved into compartmentalizing different aspects of their lives safely and respectfully.

I truly hope that this makes sense and I hope you will know I am not attempting to do anything here other than honestly say, I do get where you are coming from regarding how the role you "choose" to live in with your partner. My role in my relationship shifts hats a hell of a lot. We DO compartmentalize the different aspects of who and what we are to one another and quite fluidly most of the time. Our "kink" is private. Our "power exchange" is private and honored. Our public display in the world at large is very respectful of one another in whatever manner is deemed appropriate for the setting. Read: "when in Rome.... etc" I as a Dominant do not place a submissive in a position to have to defend herself( himself) to unlearned people. Meaning, I don't introduce her to non-BDSM/Leather folk as my "girl" or allow for any discomfort or disrespect to be subjected by people who do not get it. There truly is a time and place for everything and there is a reason that folks who have been around a very long time will less and less frequently subject themselves to the admonishment of others who lack deeper understanding of the dynamic.

I guess what it comes down to for me is that if you want to live as an openly submissive boi or slave then you may have to accept that not everyone is going to get it and consider more carefully where you choose to reveal this information. Sometimes, I think that aspect has more to do with being understood than the gender/ role aspect or non-traditional roles within a relationship. It can be very off-putting to people who see S/m or any aspect of it as still stemming from abusive maligned relationships.

If you are able to hear the genuine respect I have for you and this subject, I would love to talk more about what non-traditional roles in relationships look like and how the evolution of relationships sometimes seems left behind in the b-f world even outside the M/s aspect.

Thanks, Jess






hi jess

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jess
While reading through this thread, I keep stopping and scratching my head just a little as I am trying to understand why it was placed in the gender, label, id forum instead of in the BDSM forum. I think because so very much of the "issue" that is originally written about is very specific to the "power exchange" relationship, which is more readily accepted and discussed within the "power exchange" community, it may be better served being *there*.

my reason for not originating this thread in a BDSM space is because this thread is not just about the kink and power exchange. it is about Femme led relationships and trans/butch bottoms. not all Femme led relationships are specific to BDSM. it is about discussing the day to day encounters we have in our spaces, living in relationships that are stigmatized in a gender specific way. i have left some experiences in posts. none of them were soley about the power exchange but mostly about gender questioning encounters.

I think that in the gender/ id spectrum aspect of this subject many folks in the b-f community are a tad rigid in what their minds eye creates relating to how butches and femmes "should" interact with one another. This goes all the way to their entire vision of what butch and femme mean to them. Adjective or noun? It goes to some very core issues for some folks and with terminology constantly evolving as we ( as a part of the greater LGBT community) are becoming more self aware and more socially conscious, we either buck the changes or roll with them and hopefully grow a little on that journey.

i can comfortably say from my heart as i constantly evolve that it is about more than this for me. being self aware will not work unles i live with my minds eye open.

I don't particularly see the feminine partner in a relationship "leading" as something exclusive to BDSM relationships. We ( probably) ALL have people we know, where the "woman" in the relationship "pulls the strings", as it were. The old jokes of the "taming of the shrew" or poor uncle Jake... his wife keeps him on a short leash.

well and that is exactly why it does not need to be in a BDSM forum.i always wonder why we have to default to those old misogynistic phrases in this kind of space?? having heard these before when describing my relationship by people who were not very wise or nice. but it clearly shows again why i decided to start this topic in the gender,labels,identities forum. this is why i need to talk about it and try to find a way to change this style of thinking.



Frankly, in most relationships however the dynamic of decision making, nurturing, income earning etc., is based on who does what best and whatever works for each individual couple is just what works best. I don't see a man/ male id / masculine woman ( either of them) as "less than" for choosing to express the more a) nurturing b ) domestic c) gentle or d) ( insert any word that is usually a descriptive for the traditional "home maker" role) aspects of themselves. I think this is where we can often get really twisted in how we view our peers. Too often, it can really screw with how we view ourselves as well.



In my experience in the Leather/ BDSM communities, there was far more acceptance and APPRECIATION of the roles chosen by individuals and their dynamics as a "couple" or as part of a "family". That small portion of the greater community seems to have for the most part, worked through most of the possibilities of what relationships "can be" and do not in general "judge" another's kink ( or turn-on, or whatever floats their boat). They seem to get it, when it comes down to "whatever makes you guys happy". Of course, with that said... YES, there are folks even in that very small but diverse community who still need to one up someone else or make judgements about others to make themselves feel better. What I have come to realize about all of that, is that it really comes down to individuals and not the whole community.

my experiences so far from my leather family and community has been acceptance and appreciation. i agree

Personally, when I see an obvious "power exchange" that has been "chosen" , I see far more than the gender preference. It makes no difference to me where the individuals fall on the spectrum of gender portrayal. Actually one of the most interesting aspects of it all for me, is "where" individuals find their power core and how it chooses to be expressed. Ex: I have a friend who is a dominant gay man who prefers to Top from a Dominant Female space and prefers to dominate/ top masculine id'ed female/boi bottoms. His love life, however, is more of a "vanilla" gay man. He also maintains a Daddy/ girl relationship with a straight woman ( who happens to be a Femme Top) that is strictly platonic. So, where we find our, or express our "power exchange", can be and often is totally removed from where we "live", so to speak.

i understand this and see it from the outside. my life is Femme led 24/7 and i am a trans guy boy bottom 24/7 so i am never removed. it is not a choice but something that just is.

I dropped the Syr from my nickname here as I wanted to be able to discuss a wider range of subjects without being judged or pigeonholed as being "one of those Leather folks". I also dropped it because I am no longer as active as was in the Leather community. I no longer needed to "define" myself as primarily residing in that realm. While the exchange of power energy is still a huge turn-on , it does not limit or shape my interactions in the rest of my world.

i can not drop anything from my name because that is not for me to do without permission, i am owned. my Femme led relationship, my D/s M/s relationship only aids in widening my boundaries and sharpening my interactions with those around me from day to day. if i am ever pigeon holed as one of those "leather folk" then that would be my honor.

I see this issue as more of one of self acceptance and finding your "bliss" as it goes. If you are happy, then have at it!!! Devil be damned if others feel a need to judge your path to happiness and wholeness.
what issue do you see is about self acceptance jess?? i need clarity please??

[Jess]

[QUOTE=Bit;108693]Hi, Jess. I can't speak to most of your post, but I can tell you that I appreciate this thread being out in the wider forums, so to speak, since I don't read the BDSM forums and would have missed out on it.

Bit, I agree. I think it is a great conversation and have received quite a few notes from other folks not into Leather/ BDSM who had felt they didn't really have a place to talk about it ( gender and relationship roles) and thought this was more for BDSM folks.

Thanks for what you shared. It makes perfect sense to me!