Femme Led Relationships and Trans/Butch/Femme Bottoms

[SuperFemme]

Of course it is rooted in misogyny. I guess we could give it a slice of misandry too.

Here is the notions that seems popular.

Butch = Masculine
Masculine = Male
Male = Strong and Dominant
Femme = Feminine
Feminine = Female
Female = Submissive and Weak

So when we don't ascribe to that ridiculous set of notions? We may encounter some bewilderment, ridicule, and yes...even shunning.

I am amazed that I consider myself to be surrounded by a *pro gender diversity* crowd, yet the binary seems suffocating at times.

Why is this? Because it is so deeply ingrained by socialization that it's pervasive.

[weatherboi]

Pervasive enough to equate what my behind doors business is to my gender id. I know for me it inhibits my interaction with some people in real time and on the websites. It is hard to sit back and watch a butch/trans/femme disrespect my relationship or my Ms because they view it as icky or "less than" because the roles are not on the binary their mind/experience had created .

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Of course it is rooted in misogyny. I guess we could give it a slice of misandry too.

Here is the notions that seems popular.

Butch = Masculine
Masculine = Male
Male = Strong and Dominant
Femme = Feminine
Feminine = Female
Female = Submissive and Weak

So when we don't ascribe to that ridiculous set of notions? We may encounter some bewilderment, ridicule, and yes...even shunning.

I am amazed that I consider myself to be surrounded by a *pro gender diversity* crowd, yet the binary seems suffocating at times.

Why is this? Because it is so deeply ingrained by socialization that it's pervasive.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Pervasive enough to equate what my behind doors business is to my gender id. I know for me it inhibits my interaction with some people in real time and on the websites. It is hard to sit back and watch a butch/trans/femme disrespect my relationship or my Ms because they view it as icky or "less than" because the roles are not on the binary their mind/experience had created .

I am sad that it inhibits your interactions with others, because others are missing out on some amazing people. Of course I am biased because I spend time with you both.

With that said it hurts me too, because you guys are my family. The problem IS pervasive when a Femme Daddy is considered *scary* or *angry* or when you are negated as weak because of your submissive side. I think you're one of the strongest people I know, and your Ms. is one of the best people I know.

What is the right answer? I feel like it is unfair that you have to inhibit your interactions OR you have to educate. Over and over again. That seems tiresome.

[weatherboi]

don't be sad...ever!!!!

For me, entering into my relationship was almost offensive to some people and I couldn't figure out why. I had people tell me to my voice, "i don't think You are a submissive bottom". I also had people enter my space and bash me anonymously...it was weird. My experience is that sometimes people just wanna believe what they wanna believe. My life has been more strategic than that. I didn't just wake up one day feeling this way.

I think the right answer is relative, just like education/knowledge. It would be nice to know that our community here and out there has the head space to work on the conscious concept of the "less than" idea and how they participate in reversing this kind of thinking. It pertains to all of us in some form or fashion.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I am sad that it inhibits your interactions with others, because others are missing out on some amazing people. Of course I am biased because I spend time with you both.

With that said it hurts me too, because you guys are my family. The problem IS pervasive when a Femme Daddy is considered *scary* or *angry* or when you are negated as weak because of your submissive side. I think you're one of the strongest people I know, and your Ms. is one of the best people I know.

What is the right answer? I feel like it is unfair that you have to inhibit your interactions OR you have to educate. Over and over again. That seems tiresome.

[Sachita]

This is so interesting and lots on my mind with similar topic. Thank you for bring it up. I'm going to subscribe and come back later.

[ravfem]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

don't be sad...ever!!!!

For me, entering into my relationship was almost offensive to some people and I couldn't figure out why. I had people tell me to my voice, "i don't think You are a submissive bottom". I also had people enter my space and bash me anonymously...it was weird. My experience is that sometimes people just wanna believe what they wanna believe. My life has been more strategic than that. I didn't just wake up one day feeling this way.

I think the right answer is relative, just like education/knowledge. It would be nice to know that our community here and out there has the head space to work on the conscious concept of the "less than" idea and how they participate in reversing this kind of thinking. It pertains to all of us in some form or fashion.

i've run into this since my first days out in the local kink community here in SC, over 10 years ago. The whole "she is sooooo not a top" judgmental crowd, who then whine about being judged by nillas.

Interestingly, it's been directed at bio-female bottoms/subs/slaves just as often as i've heard it in regards to male or butch tops/doms/owners....actually, now that i think about it, i've heard it more often at female bottoms than anyone else, but that's probably only because around here there aren't that many male or butch bottoms who are active in the groups.

i just know i dislike hearing the judgement, no matter who it's directed at. And yes, i partook of the judgements myself at first, but my Leather Mama taught me long ago that one never knows the dynamics involved in a relationship unless you're privy to it, so best keep your judgements to yourself.

Who am i to say who is or isn't anything??

[weatherboi]

Nice thoughts ravfem-

Well from my knees experience none of the Doms of any gender or slaves I have met have treated me or any person they came into contact this way. I am talking about the queer butch femme community that does not participate in our dynamic. When I am with my Ms at a leather event I am boy and gender doesnt matter.

I have a hard time agreeing with you on the point that femme slaves/subs/bottoms and trans/butch Tops are scrutinized as often as a trans/butch bottoms and the Femme/Female Tops that lead them. I think that femme/female slaves/subs/bottoms and their trans/butch Tops/Daddys are much more widely accepted amoungst the masses.

Originally Posted by ravfem

i've run into this since my first days out in the local kink community here in SC, over 10 years ago. The whole "she is sooooo not a top" judgmental crowd, who then whine about being judged by nillas.

Interestingly, it's been directed at bio-female bottoms/subs/slaves just as often as i've heard it in regards to male or butch tops/doms/owners....actually, now that i think about it, i've heard it more often at female bottoms than anyone else, but that's probably only because around here there aren't that many male or butch bottoms who are active in the groups.

i just know i dislike hearing the judgement, no matter who it's directed at. And yes, i partook of the judgements myself at first, but my Leather Mama taught me long ago that one never knows the dynamics involved in a relationship unless you're privy to it, so best keep your judgements to yourself.

Who am i to say who is or isn't anything??

[Kenna]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

Nice thoughts ravfem-

Well from my knees experience none of the Doms of any gender or slaves I have met have treated me or any person they came into contact this way. I am talking about the queer butch femme community that does not participate in our dynamic. When I am with my Ms at a leather event I am boy and gender doesnt matter.

I have a hard time agreeing with you on the point that femme slaves/subs/bottoms and trans/butch Tops are scrutinized as often as a trans/butch bottoms and the Femme/Female Tops that lead them. I think that femme/female slaves/subs/bottoms and their trans/butch Tops/Daddys are much more widely accepted amoungst the masses.

I very much agree... speaking from my personal experiences only. And may be another reason why I reject being a femme sub/bottom? However, I wouldn't reject exploring what it would be like to enjoy a dynamic with a FTM/Butch bottom...

[Martina]

From my observation, Butch or Trans Dominants and their butch or trans submissives get less shit than Femme Dominants and their butch or trans submissives. Makes sense. In the former case, at least half of the expected hierarchy is in place.

Has that already been said? If so, i apologize. Tired tonight.

[Rufusboi]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Of course it is rooted in misogyny. I guess we could give it a slice of misandry too.

Here is the notions that seems popular.

Butch = Masculine
Masculine = Male
Male = Strong and Dominant
Femme = Feminine
Feminine = Female
Female = Submissive and Weak

So when we don't ascribe to that ridiculous set of notions? We may encounter some bewilderment, ridicule, and yes...even shunning.

I am amazed that I consider myself to be surrounded by a *pro gender diversity* crowd, yet the binary seems suffocating at times.

Why is this? Because it is so deeply ingrained by socialization that it's pervasive.

Great post. We forget the sex, gender and sexuality are not aligned in a neat little package. We of all people should know that the binaries of male/female, aggressive/passive, strong/weak have no meaning or merit. I mean, come on, this discussion has been going on for decades now. Why do we keep forgetting this. Conciousness raising groups in the 70s were hashing this out. 40 years later we are still falling into the binary trap.

Rufus

[Queerasfck]

Originally Posted by June

Thank you for starting this! And I swear to Pete, if any Jackass comes in here and says something like "I'm too Butch/Masculine to be a bottom..." I will come after them with my broom.

OOOOooooooo Juneeyyyyyyyyyy I'm too butch/masc.........just kidding. You are fun to wind up.

What I really came in here to say is that I really do agree with you Weatherboi, the way I view the gender spectrum is that it is wide and encompassing for all. I support and embrace you brother.
I have definitely seen lots of negative stereotypes about butch subs within our own community. With that there does seem to be a stigma attached to it within our very own queer community as well. My feeling is that as people we live in a male dominated world so naturally anything that threatens that would be looked at as less than.

It's great that you started the thread.

[weatherboi]

Thanks Ezee-
Your support and participation is very appreciated by me. I get the whole male dominance thing and how it has stemmed itself in our fabric as we all explore our identities. I know what bugs me is that how it comes to be that we as a community have allowed this type of thinking to further itself by invading our community and how we approach it to help reverse it. For me it comes in the form of sticking up for myself and what I choose for myself. Calling out my friends and sometimes people that aren't my friends but bystanders.

Originally Posted by EzeeTiger

OOOOooooooo Juneeyyyyyyyyyy I'm too butch/masc.........just kidding. You are fun to wind up.

What I really came in here to say is that I really do agree with you Weatherboi, the way I view the gender spectrum is that it is wide and encompassing for all. I support and embrace you brother.
I have definitely seen lots of negative stereotypes about butch subs within our own community. With that there does seem to be a stigma attached to it within our very own queer community as well. My feeling is that as people we live in a male dominated world so naturally anything that threatens that would be looked at as less than.

It's great that you started the thread.