Some labels do not include trans in the definition

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Paragraph 3. I don't understand the bunny ears around "correct" either. I'm also lost at "biologically one, but not seeking to physically alter". I also don't understand your definition of trans meaning androgynous. If you really see men as men...how are they androgynous or both or neither?

Hey Dylan, I read that paragraph as making a distinction between transsexual men--whom Jess sees as men--and transgendered-as-in-third-gender butches. Third gender butches don't usually transition, and yet we use the term "trans" for them as well as for guys who transition, because there's so much overlap between the two terms "transgendered" and "transsexual" in the wider transsexual community. To me, that's a very frustrating ambiguity in the language. It seems to trip up all kinds of people, yanno?

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Bit

Hey Dylan, I read that paragraph as making a distinction between transsexual men--whom Jess sees as men--and transgendered-as-in-third-gender butches. Third gender butches don't usually transition, and yet we use the term "trans" for them as well as for guys who transition, because there's so much overlap between the two terms "transgendered" and "transsexual" in the wider transsexual community. To me, that's a very frustrating ambiguity in the language. It seems to trip up all kinds of people, yanno?

Ok I have no idea what you just said but it looks important. Can you elaborate?

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Bit

Hey Dylan, I read that paragraph as making a distinction between transsexual men--whom Jess sees as men--and transgendered-as-in-third-gender butches. Third gender butches don't usually transition, and yet we use the term "trans" for them as well as for guys who transition, because there's so much overlap between the two terms "transgendered" and "transsexual" in the wider transsexual community. To me, that's a very frustrating ambiguity in the language. It seems to trip up all kinds of people, yanno?

Which is why I (personally) DO try to make an effort to distinguish btwn transgendered and transsexed (removing the sexual part all together, because most people tend to meld transsexual into sex and sexuality...which is archaic as far as I'm concerned)

I DO DO DO believe there is a HUGGGGGGEE difference btwn transgendered and transsexed which very very often get all lumped into one category making for an enormously confusing conversation.


Totally Agreed,
Dylan

[Dylan]

I would like to add that this whole monitoring of who is/who isn't 'butch'/'femme' whatnot (i.e. butch-femme is a woman-only club) leads to the monitoring of 'who is/who isn't butch/femme ENOUGH' which drives all of us crazy.

Once we start saying, "Well, SoAndSo isn't *reallllllly* butch/femme, because A, B, C" that leads to "SoAndSo isn't butch/femme *enough*, because of A, B, C"

It leads to hierarchies of butch/femme and definitions of butch/femme by OTHERS instead of individual flavors of butch/femme.

I Hope That Makes As Much Sense Outside Of My Head As It Does Inside My Head,
Dylan

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I would like to add that this whole monitoring of who is/who isn't 'butch'/'femme' whatnot (i.e. butch-femme is a woman-only club) leads to the monitoring of 'who is/who isn't butch/femme ENOUGH' which drives all of us crazy.

Once we start saying, "Well, SoAndSo isn't *reallllllly* butch/femme, because A, B, C" that leads to "SoAndSo isn't butch/femme *enough*, because of A, B, C"

It leads to hierarchies of butch/femme and definitions of butch/femme by OTHERS instead of individual flavors of butch/femme.

I Hope That Makes As Much Sense Outside Of My Head As It Does Inside My Head,
Dylan

This needed to be seen again.

ALSO... To me, this is what it feels like:

I tell someone my name is Jenny and they call me Jennifer, and not just once, but continue to...I realize Jenny is often short for Jennifer, but if I have not told you to call me Jennifer, why would you assume it is OK? (my birth name is JENNY, for the record)

What happened to listening to what someone defines themself as and honor it? What happened to taking someone's preferred label at face value? What happened to respecting this, which is to address and or greet me as I have asked?

If you tell me you are a trans identified man (he/him) and your name is Mike, then I will say..."that guy Mike, he is cool!"

[Greyson]

Somehow I missed this thread. Most of you know, I identify as a Transmasculine Butch and Transman. I do not identify as FTM. What I see much of the time is the binary being held as the only option. I honestly feel that I am a combination of masculine and feminine. My preference is to be referred to as "he" and I do not think I was born into the wrong body. I think I was born into the body that was correct for me at the time. I have altered my body to align with who I see myself to be. Will I ever have bottom surgery? Most likely not.

Each person gets to make their choices when it comes to their own body. I will respect their choice and address them as whatever their preference is. For myself I do not see myself having some end point in my "transition." IMO, all of life is about continuing, growing and transformation. (This emcompasses more than only the physical attributes.)