Some labels do not include trans in the definition

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I realize you're not coming from a place of being intentionally hurtful. I'm numbering your paragraphs as just an easier way to discuss all the things you've brought up instead of having to break it up into separate quotes.

And while I completely realize your intention is not to be hurtful...I have to say, from my ME place, your words sting...a lot.

Paragraph 1: Your words sting a lot, but it's not just your words. I don't understand why you put bunny ears (quotes) around the word trans.

Paragraph 3. I don't understand the bunny ears around "correct" either. I'm also lost at "biologically one, but not seeking to physically alter". I also don't understand your definition of trans meaning androgynous. If you really see men as men...how are they androgynous or both or neither?

On another note, and this is probably going to sound 'lectury or 'lessony', but it's text and not speech. I don't mean it in a schooly type way. Transwomen and ciswomen share biological traits which transmen and cismen don't share. Same goes for transmen/cismen and transwomen/ciswomen. So, when one says, "biological man/woman", I get confused. Being trans isn't just a head trip. It's also a "biological" thing. There are lots of biological factors that transmen and cismen share (same with transwomen and ciswomen). There is a really good book I can't remember the name of right now that explains all of these biological similarities in great detail. When/If I remember the name of the book, I'll post it.

Lastly on paragraph 3 (and this is going to sound more prickish than intended, but again, it's text and not speech, and if we were having this conversation in person, it wouldn't sound prickish)...you don't get to decide how transfolk use the term 'trans'. Different transpeople use the term differently to mean different things. It's not up to you to decide how it's used. Personally, sometimes, I use it and sometimes I don't. My experiences differ greatly from other transpeople's experiences, and how and why and when I use 'trans' varies from person to person and day to day. Sometimes, it's easier to convey to less informed people, so I use the word trans. Sometimes, my use is dependent upon who's listening. Sometimes, it's dependent on my mood. Sometimes, the wind blows from the south, and I use the word trans as a self-descriptor. The hows/whys/whens of that are up to ME...no one else. If you or anyone else can't grasp that...then just LISTEN. I don't expect you or anyone else to magically 'know' things.

Paragraph 4. While you, personally, may define b-f as female-only...it's not. In fact, tons of gay men are part of the b-f dynamic. Butch is a word used by straight, cis people to define straight, cismen and even straight, ciswomen. It's NOT a term exclusive to queer females. It's just not. While YOUR particular experience with the b-f terms/community *might* be female-only...it's just NOT a female-only community.

Now, here's where I get a bit lost in your post. In paragraph 2 you state you've given Transdom a lot of thought, and you would feel no longer a part of a community you've known your entire life. I get that. Totally one hundred percent get that. I think probably every transguy who's been a part of this community/family has grappled with that.

Backstory: I have been labeled by OTHERS my entire life as 'Lez', 'He/She', 'Dyke', 'Lesbian', 'Female', 'Woman', etc. My Whole Life...literally from the second I slid outta the womb. I didn't pick these terms for myself...they were chosen FOR me.

I came out when I was 14. I went right into the lesbian community, because A) I had been labeled a lesbian, so I figured that's what was going on; and B) there was very little talk of trans-issues in those days. One might see the occasional transwoman who was labeled a 'drag queen' by everyone else, but I definitely NEVER saw any transguys.

That was over 25 years ago. I have been a part of the b-f community and the lesbian community for over 25 years. All of my friends have always been queer with a few exceptions. Straight venues have never been safe for me, so I have not really ever spent much time in straight arenas (sans workplaces, etc). I mean, I don't really even go to shopping malls, because it's just never been safe. I know all of the social cues and little inuendos of queer space. Put me in straight space, and I'm kind of lost. If I'm not lost, I simply refuse to partake. I have no idea how straight-space operates. Queer space, as you put it, is my "dysfunctional yet familiar family" also.

So, please tell me why I have to give that up? Why would anyone have to give that up? My entire life has been devoted to advancing queer (specifically lesbian) rights. I have always stood behind this community. While I have been socialized in many aspects as female, and I've been treated female by everyone around me, and I've definitely 'paid my dues' as an out queer for so many years, I have also been socialized QUEER. So, again, please tell me why I'm expected to then what? just forget about all of that and jump out of my 'dysfunctional yet familiar family' and into a world I've never known? Just because some people have a very LIMITED view of butch-femme? I'm supposed to forget all of that, because YOU view my relationship as 'straight'? Really? Because I don't view my relationship as straight, and neither does Mahhh Woman. And I don't view MYSELF as straight. Mahhh Woman doesn't view herself as straight, and she never has...even when she was married to a cisman.

And here's where I get a little pissy (and again, I completely realize you're coming from a place of trying to understand...but I'm entitled to my pissiness). I have lived my ENTIRE life having someone ELSE determine my place in the world...whether that place was 'female', or 'woman', or 'lesbian', or 'he/she', or <insert birthname here>, or 'daughter', or 'dyke', or whatnot. YOU do NOT get to determine where I belong...how queer I am...whether I'm butch...whether I'm straight...whether I should give up my 'dysfunctional yet familiar family'. I (me, me, me) determine that. NOT you. This particular site is a QUEER site. I'm queer. I'm here. Get used to it. Queer includes trans. Some butches are cismen. Some butches are transmen. Some butches are just men. Some butches are gay men. Some butches are straight cismen. Some butches are straight transmen. Some butches are nelly-ass-flaming third gendered butches. Some butches are male-ID'd. Some butches are ciswomen. Some butches are transwomen. Some femmes are cismen. Some femmes are transmen. Some butches are queer ciswomen. Some butches are straight ciswomen. Some femmes are queer, het, ciswomen. The list is endless.

If you view butch-femme as simply 'lesbian, cisfemale-only', you're not only dissing transfolks, you're also dissing all of those folks who don't ID as either lesbian, cis, male, female, man, queer, or woman...and that's A LOT of people. Some people view their sex and/or gender as simply 'Butch' or 'Femme' with no other explanations.

Sex and sexuality are not the same thing. My sex has nothing to do with my gender either. My sex has nothing to do with a myriad of aspects of my life.

This ain't your grandmother's butch-femme community.

Paragraph 5. I really wish people would get over this "choices" and "preferences" idea. People's sex/genders/sexualities are NOT NOT NOT 'choices and preferences'. It's funny if I were to start dissing Mahhh Woman's life as 'woman' or 'female' as something she 'chooses' or 'prefers', she'd be pretty upset with me. My mother didn't 'choose' her sex any more than I 'chose' my sex. You didn't 'choose' or 'prefer' to be queer anymore than I did. It's diminishing to call your 'life' a preference or choice. I'm sure you get a little riled up when the fundies start calling being queer 'a choice'.

And once again, I completely realize you're coming from a place of trying to understand, and you're not intentionally trying to hurt/oppress anyone. I get that.


Dylan

Butch is a word with many meanings, many incarnations. But I vehemently disagee that in the context of BFP.com (or this conversation) a straight natal male who is butch appearing is connected to this community. Nor do I see a bunch of gay (born) male butch - femme men wanting to hang around here. And that butch straight cis-gendered butch looking women down the street might take offense to being lumped in with our butch femme dynamic.

It's seems really distasteful to me to try to stretch butch out beyond recognition, downgrade butch identity here to having such generic blahzay definition.

You know, I don't know if you identify as butch anymore, nor do I care, but I do... and it the context of this community it has meaning, very specific history and we have more connection to each other and more value in all of that than to bust it to almost nothing.

Just think that's especially crazy in a thread that's about not defining others and respecting identities.

*not some straight butch looking lady down the street*
Metropolis

[BullDog]

Here's One Look At 1950s Butch Femme culture.

http://www.mariecartier.com/content/BF.pdf

There's nothing here to indicate any of these people took on traditional male and female roles- in fact quite the opposite. This is a history of women- yes I said women. Women who laid their lives and bodies on the line. As apretty said, many femmes back then had to work as prostitutes to support themselves, their lovers and families. Butch women were repeatedly raped by cops for being butch but refused to go into hiding and looked their rapist straight in the face.

These were working class people. Upper class people could have private parties in their homes. Working class people met in public places like bars and faced the wrath of the cops.

This is part of my history. I'm not going to take the woman part out. I am happy to hear trans and other perspective as well, but I am not going to take the woman out of butch femme history.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Here's One Look At 1950s Butch Femme culture.

http://www.mariecartier.com/content/BF.pdf

There's nothing here to indicate any of these people took on traditional male and female roles- in fact quite the opposite. This is a history of women- yes I said women. Women who laid their lives and bodies on the line. As apretty said, many femmes back then had to work as prostitutes to support themselves, their lovers and families. Butch women were repeatedly raped by cops for being butch but refused to go into hiding and looked their rapist straight in the face.

These were working class people. Upper class people could have private parties in their homes. Working class people met in public places like bars and faced the wrath of the cops.

This is part of my history. I'm not going to take the woman part out. I am happy to hear trans and other perspective as well, but I am not going to take the woman out of butch femme history.

I see your point, and I appreciate your wanting to protect your history

However, not every butch...even back then...identified with 'being a woman'.

To deny that there were transmen involved in that history is to deny trans history and look at butch-femme culture from a very myopic cis perspective

Many many many transpeople (both mtfs and ftms) have been involved in b-f history from the beginning


Dylan

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I see your point, and I appreciate your wanting to protect your history

However, not every butch...even back then...identified with 'being a woman'.

To deny that there were transmen involved in that history is to deny trans history and look at butch-femme culture from a very myopic cis perspective

Many many many transpeople (both mtfs and ftms) have been involved in b-f history from the beginning


Dylan

I'm not denying anything. Go ahead and share other perspectives. I've read many studies similar to the one I just shared which involved interviewing hundreds of butches and femmes that actually lived through that time period. They share very similar stories from their own voices and perspectives.

Edit: The butches and femmes from the study I cited lived as women, they were treated as women- including having to struggle with having to find jobs (both femmes and butches) because they were women, being beaten and raped, etc because they were women. Please do not dilute this into an "identity" debate. These were real people with real lives. The fact that they were female and women had everything to do with how they walked through this world and what struggles they faced and how they were treated and how they found community and how they lived and how they loved.

[betenoire]

So, back to Linus' question:

So a question to all: do you view those that were mis-assigned the wrong gender at birth as always trans something? if so, why? would you ever view them as wholly their gender (as they should be and not assigned)?

I'm gonna answer your question with another question. Because I tend to do that.

How do you feel about women dating trans(sexual) males but not "biological" (EWWW, I hate typing biomale! Let's say non-trans instead, okay?) males?

I mean, if you're gonna date FTMs but not date, um, Ms...doesn't that on some level indicate that you don't really fully 100% recognize your man's real sex? Or is it the fact that FTMs were at least socialised as Women earlier in life that makes it acceptable to partner with them and not non-trans guys?

(Again with the reiterating that I am talking about transsexual men here, not transgendered.)

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I'm not denying anything. Go ahead and share other perspectives. I've read many studies similar to the one I just shared which involved interviewing hundreds of butches and femmes that actually lived through that time period. They share very similar stories from their own voices and perspectives.

Edit: The butches and femmes from the study I cited lived as women, they were treated as women- including having to struggle with having to find jobs (both femmes and butches) because they were women, being beaten and raped, etc because they were women. Please do not dilute this into an "identity" debate. These were real people with real lives. The fact that they were female and women had everything to do with how they walked through this world and what struggles they faced and how they were treated and how they found community and how they lived and how they loved.

Bulldog, I'm not denying anything

I'm merely stating that b-f culture was not then, nor is it now a 'woman only turf'.

There were many many transpeople involved in butch femme history who also took beatings for being who they were too

I'm also not denying that the one article you provided spoke about butch women. I read the article. Yes, it centered on butch femme folks who id'd as woman.

Nor, am I denying that Nestle likes to focus on CIS women's history as applied to butch femme history

That doesn't mean trans people were not part of the butch-femme history/community/activism/etc

It's only a *(cis)woman's* history if One chooses to focus their attention on *(cis)women*


Dylan