Some labels do not include trans in the definition

[adorable]

Originally Posted by little man

i think much of it depends on where you are and who you're with.

inside the queer community, there is much more discussion and thought put into identity, who we are, what we are than there is in the world at large. while i'm sure there are some folks in the world who do consciously consider self and who they are in a greater context...i have doubts that gender identity plays into that much, if at all. when i'm at work or the grocery store or at the zoo...my gender identity does not come into play for anyone else. obviously, it's a part of what goes into making me the type of man i am, but i don't see anyone mulling it over. for the general population, i'm a funny guy who is helpful or irritated or pleasant. while it is noted that i'm not overly ionterested in sports and that i seem to "understand" women a bit more than your average joe...my manhood is not questioned. i'm just a different sort of man. since my primary goal in life isn't looking for pussy to get up in, but to find someone who's a good match for me in other areas....i'm a really different sort of guy.

because people tend to see the worrld through their own filters, and scrutiny of gender idenity isn't on their list of things to think about, they ascribe to the world around them an ease in being whoever one is. it's in the narrower confines of social subgroups (queer/b-f/trans) that all this stuff comes into play. i wonder if the influence of knowing we're different, in the context of the broader world, comes into play here online...where we speak up about being misnamed and call people out on intent. i think that because this place matters, these people matter to us...it's important to say this stuff aloud. i have a difficult time believing that many folks, trans or otherwise, spend much of their offline time saying, "hey...i'm a boy or a boi or a masculine female bodied man".

it's wonderful that we have these discussions, that we're all able to come to a better understanding of ourselves and others in the world. unless there were some history of conflict between any two posters, i'd be hard pressed to believe that *anyone* is being malicious in their terminology or phrasing. we take our cues from one another in what we read.

and now, it's time for this guy to give his sister a ride to work and go pull some carpet.

I disagree. I think that IF they're outsides matched their insides they would be identifying to the world they were a man. And not only is it something they dream about, fantasize about and hope for - it can be all consuming. It is very real for them. It is very frustrating and my impression is they do think about it all the time.

Within our "subgroup" as you call it the most frustrating thing is not being able to celebrate being a man. To do that can be seen as msyoginistic. The acceptance is limited in a "yeah, yeah ok you're a man don't throw it in our face" kind of way. Being a man is not what some people feel on the inside - so rather then accept that some people do - they are quick to dismiss the realness and excitement of another's core being.

What does happen at the grocery store, at the zoo, in the shower, waiting for the bus, applying for a job - is they are reminded constantly of how the world sees them which is not how they feel. I see that is a sad sort of hell.

(I disagree with your taking your experience for others - not your experience if that makes sense. I don't see that as the experience for many female bodied men.)

[little man]

Originally Posted by adorable

I disagree. I think that IF they're outsides matched their insides they would be identifying to the world they were a man. And not only is it something they dream about, fantasize about and hope for - it can be all consuming. It is very real for them. It is very frustrating and my impression is they do think about it all the time.

Within our "subgroup" as you call it the most frustrating thing is not being able to celebrate being a man. To do that can be seen as msyoginistic. The acceptance is limited in a "yeah, yeah ok you're a man don't throw it in our face" kind of way. Being a man is not what some people feel on the inside - so rather then accept that some people do - they are quick to dismiss the realness and excitement of another's core being.

What does happen at the grocery store, at the zoo, in the shower, waiting for the bus, applying for a job - is they are reminded constantly of how the world sees them which is not how they feel. I see that is a sad sort of hell.

(I disagree with your taking your experience for others - not your experience if that makes sense. I don't see that as the experience for many female bodied men.)

adorable, i'm not sure what it is you're disagreeing with. is it that you think most people in the world (yes, that would be the larger, straight world) spend time considering gender presentation and the ramifications of being misaligned with one's body?

do you disagree that because i look like a man, i'm assumed to be one...complete with shared socialization and experiences as other bio-men understand them?

i am 7 years or so into transition. i've been on T that long. i am still pre-op, so still female bodied. are you assuming that i've forgotten the disparity between my physicality and my interior life? the shower is a very different scenario for me than going to work or the grocery store.

a point that i didn't make (and perhaps should have been clearer on) is that people are generally lazy in their identification of others. if it looks like a man, then it must be one. before i started T, i passed part of the time as male. once the secondary sex traits kicked in, it was way more often than that. finally, once i picked up on social cues and what i was "expected" to do, it got to be full time. i do understand the frustration of feeling one way and looking another. that's why i undertook the great mindfuck that is transitioning.

i don't expect that everyone's experience is the same. i think that was an assumption on your part. i have been in the pre-transition position, the beginning of transition position, and now in the midst of it. please don't assume that i've forgotten any step of this long process...it is indelibly etched upon my soul. i remember the places and the people i've been before today.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by little man

adorable, i'm not sure what it is you're disagreeing with. is it that you think most people in the world (yes, that would be the larger, straight world) spend time considering gender presentation and the ramifications of being misaligned with one's body?

do you disagree that because i look like a man, i'm assumed to be one...complete with shared socialization and experiences as other bio-men understand them?

i am 7 years or so into transition. i've been on T that long. i am still pre-op, so still female bodied. are you assuming that i've forgotten the disparity between my physicality and my interior life? the shower is a very different scenario for me than going to work or the grocery store.

a point that i didn't make (and perhaps should have been clearer on) is that people are generally lazy in their identification of others. if it looks like a man, then it must be one. before i started T, i passed part of the time as male. once the secondary sex traits kicked in, it was way more often than that. finally, once i picked up on social cues and what i was "expected" to do, it got to be full time. i do understand the frustration of feeling one way and looking another. that's why i undertook the great mindfuck that is transitioning.

i don't expect that everyone's experience is the same. i think that was an assumption on your part. i have been in the pre-transition position, the beginning of transition position, and now in the midst of it. please don't assume that i've forgotten any step of this long process...it is indelibly etched upon my soul. i remember the places and the people i've been before today.

Yes, I read you wrong. I don't disagree. Thank you for clarifying - although when I went back and read your post realized that I had misread it and it was clear how it was written.

[Jess]

OK, having had some time for the gazillion thoughts regarding this subject to ramble around my head, I will try to make myself more clear.

Regarding a persons personal pronoun, I will call them whatever I see them use referring to themselves and usually avoid it altogether if I am unsure. The topic was brought up regarding a specific incident to which I feel I answered to quite clearly, as I was confused by the several choices of pronouns or descriptors the person used referring to himself. Again, I apologize if he took it in any dismissive way.

Regarding the use of the term trans, I used the quotes, because I see "TRANS" used referring to several different things and am never quite sure which it is when someone just says trans. Is it transsexual, transgendered, trans-spirited? I try not to assume, but obviously I am not the only one who gets confused by this catch all word.

Regarding MY use of the word Butch, to my knowledge "butch" was originally one of those derogatory words given to label masculine women. Mostly it was a source of hate and disparity, and like the word "fag" or "queer", butch women reclaimed it as a source of pride and power. The word itself goes back to before "lesbians" claimed it. Further, straight women were often nicknamed "Butch" and quite frequently in a loving manner by their male counterparts who were not threatened in their own sense of masculinity. I will illustrate with photos from a grave across the street from my house. This couple was married in 1956 and Pappy is still living.





As to who has a place in this community, I think we all do. My statement about MY not viewing men as "butch" is based on my experience with transsexual/ FTM's who do not identify as "butch". Again, I apologize if it was read to mean I think FTM's don't have a place here. If someone wants to call themselves a butch man, who am I to say differently?

Like Wil stated earlier, I think way too often these conversations generally only exist here because in the outside/ real world, we are all way too busy dealing with life on life's terms. The hetero world ( in general) makes and passes judgement on us based on appearances or characteristics and usually I am way too busy trying to not get killed or attacked to give a fuck about defining things like "trans" or "butch" or "pronoun preference".

Three days ago in a small convenience store we stopped at while trying to help someone move, a group of three people various ages and sexes were discussing me quite audibly. The store being very small and crowded, their words quite loud and hurtful, I smiled back in their faces and simply said "ya know, it might be nicer if you at least waited until you got outside before you start gossiping about someone who is in front of you". Now, I could have said nothing or I could have turned around and punched someone or I could have melted in fear or any number of responses. As a Butch woman I get this kind of shit almost every time I go into public and certainly any time I have to take a piss.

When trying to figure out my own place I KNOW it would be easier for me in dealing with the world at large if I transitioned... had a beard.. wasn't a source of constant ogling and for some reason a threat to straight folks who just don't get it. I, however, am not willing at this point in my life to do that. I love my wife. She is a dyke. She fell in love with ME, all of me, both my feminine and masculine aspects and presentations.

I try to call people what they wish to be called. If I read their words and descriptors and there are several to choose from, I try to reference ALL of them so I don't screw it up and ya know, sometimes I still might and will correct it as soon as it is pointed out to me. I have been living with being called he or she for so friggen long I no longer really give a shit what someone calls me. Note my personal pronoun choice. I know it is hard for some people to see me ( all live and in person) and try to guess what I am, so why should I get upset with them? To me, the meat of what a person shares with me is far more important that what gender it came from.

My struggle as a queer woman is still very based in the politics of gaining equal rights. If our brothers and sisters in the LGBT community can stop fighting with each other, then perhaps we can channel that energy into the real struggle. Perhaps, we could stop focusing so much on the minutiae of "words" and focus on the reality of "US". Perhaps we can realize our allies instead of being so quick to make enemies within our ranks.

Dylan, I am hoping this might help clarify some of where I am coming from. I may owe you a more personal response and please let me know if I do. The whole subject is so profound on so many levels both personally and as a member of this community that I am having a hard time dissecting it all.

Edited to add: If the pictures I tried to post don't show up, they are in my gallery and I am a technical idiot. Sorry.

[Sachita]

Thank you Jess for your thought provoking words.

I will use you as an example. I always saw you as he. It wasnt your title or anything else just the energy I picked up on. Thats my thing. I'll never forget the day i was talking to someone we both know, Matt, and he said your "girl" name and referred to you as she. I didnt correct him but I admit it took me back and jarred me a little. I don't even now why it did as much as it did.

I then remember another person we both know that gave me shit when I referred to you as He. She corrected me and said, "I am sure Jess is transgender" of course I got shit over that.

I respect anyone's ID, of course, BUT I feel what I feel and if I sense that energy then I roll with it. If THEY correct me, have a problem with it then I correct it to make them more comfortable but i still feel what I feel.

In my perception, this here and now, gender is not an issue but a "feeling" I have. I go with that and like I said, if I'm wrong, someone disputes then I change the words but in my heart I never change. I see it how I feel it.

There are those that claim "he" and I feel "she" and it's not even about how they look but the vibes I pick up on. Again this is my thing. Lady Snow once made reference to her masculine energy and I can relate because i have this too but I'll be damn anyone call me he or boi or anything else. It's a very complicated matter and when it's all said and done it really is an individual process. How I am with you might be different then how I am with someone else. One might see She and I might see He. Honestly, IMO it really doesnt matter unless someone is feeling uncomfortable with it.

[betenoire]

Wait, so a person's gender and pronoun isn't so much about how THEY feel about their own gender and which pronoun they want used...but about how YOU feel about the gender/pronoun you would like to assign that person? And even if they correct you you will still think of them how you want to think of them but figure it's good enough that you try to use the pronoun they want?

Wow.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Wait, so a person's gender and pronoun isn't so much about how THEY feel about their own gender and which pronoun they want used...but about how YOU feel about the gender/pronoun you would like to assign that person? And even if they correct you you will still think of them how you want to think of them but figure it's good enough that you try to use the pronoun they want?

Wow.

I can't change how I feel about something but I do respect someone's ID, for sure. It really isnt about gender for me as it is essence. It's probably complicated for me to fully describe. Let me think about the words more.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Sachita

Thank you Jess for your thought provoking words.

I will use you as an example. I always saw you as he. It wasnt your title or anything else just the energy I picked up on. Thats my thing. I'll never forget the day i was talking to someone we both know, Matt, and he said your "girl" name and referred to you as she. I didnt correct him but I admit it took me back and jarred me a little. I don't even now why it did as much as it did.

I then remember another person we both know that gave me shit when I referred to you as He. She corrected me and said, "I am sure Jess is transgender" of course I got shit over that.

I respect anyone's ID, of course, BUT I feel what I feel and if I sense that energy then I roll with it. If THEY correct me, have a problem with it then I correct it to make them more comfortable but i still feel what I feel.

In my perception, this here and now, gender is not an issue but a "feeling" I have. I go with that and like I said, if I'm wrong, someone disputes then I change the words but in my heart I never change. I see it how I feel it.

There are those that claim "he" and I feel "she" and it's not even about how they look but the vibes I pick up on. Again this is my thing. Lady Snow once made reference to her masculine energy and I can relate because i have this too but I'll be damn anyone call me he or boi or anything else. It's a very complicated matter and when it's all said and done it really is an individual process. How I am with you might be different then how I am with someone else. One might see She and I might see He. Honestly, IMO it really doesnt matter unless someone is feeling uncomfortable with it.

Thanks for the honest response. Like I said, I get "he" and/or "she" everyday and usually it just rolls off.

One poor little older lady was calling me sir at the walmart pharmacy recently and I guess caught a profile of a tit and then fell all over herslef trying to apologize and correct herself. I was like, "ma'am, it is REALLY ok, no big deal". I actually felt sad that she was so dumbfounded. So sincerely upset with her "mistake" and it pained me to see her struggle so with it.

Thanks again.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Sachita

There are those that claim "he" and I feel "she" and it's not even about how they look but the vibes I pick up on.

and what if your 'vibes' are dead wrong--you choose someone else's GENDER based on some *feeling*?

what if i feel like you're a man--should i start he'ing you and 'go with it'?

do you see how this isn't at all your choice to make--how this is all contained within a person--no matter if you never came across someone and 'vibed' their gender/pronoun?

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by apretty

and what if your 'vibes' are dead wrong--you choose someone else's GENDER based on some *feeling*?

what if i feel like you're a man--should i start he'ing you and 'go with it'?

do you see how this isn't at all your choice to make--how this is all contained within a person--no matter if you never came across someone and 'vibed' their gender/pronoun?

Having read and reread Sachita's post several times, it seems to me the totality of what was said is not being acknowledged. Rather a few concepts are being taken out of context.

I did not see her say anywhere that she would be disrespectful and deny someone else's identity. I saw her say she has an internal process....we all do....and maybe what she perceives in that process is not what is being stated by another.

We all get vibes about people. Sometimes we are correct, sometimes not. But to say one cannot have an internal process or a feeling about something is to deny their right to be human.

No one is "choosing" anothers gender or preferred pronoun. Sometimes you dont know and an automatic process is to use what you feel. Seems reasonable to me. Then the other person can state a preference in response. No harm, no foul.

Gawd, if I have to police everything that I think or feel or intuit cuz someone else takes issue with a tiny aspect of MY process, I'd be a freakin basketcase. We wont need to worry about the gender police but we'd have a real problem with the thought police.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by apretty

and what if your 'vibes' are dead wrong--you choose someone else's GENDER based on some *feeling*?

what if i feel like you're a man--should i start he'ing you and 'go with it'?

do you see how this isn't at all your choice to make--how this is all contained within a person--no matter if you never came across someone and 'vibed' their gender/pronoun?

well first of all I never look at a person and just assume who they are. I'm likely to watch and study and yes my vibes have been wrong. I'm human.