Expectations of FTMs/transsexed men (Dylan's thread)

[Toughy]

'Two Spirit' is about Native Americans.........ya know........those pesky folks who lived on this land prior to white people invading..........

I kinda wish all these white folks would stop stealing cultural terms from Native Americans. Two spirit is not for white folks to use anytime they want. Try learning before you appropriate terms from other cultures. Two spirit literally means 'having both a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit'.

I don't personally know any white FtMs/transmen who claim they have a feminine spirit. They only claim a male spirit.

Do some research folks.........

[Emmy]

We’re all a part of this community, presumably, because we feel some kind of resonance with one another, right? Some kind of connection? I think maybe that particular sense of resonance is important, for some people, in order to feel an attraction to another person. Need that, in itself, be a hurtful thing? If not, how does one go about elaborating on the nature of that sense of connection without being hurtful or - I don’t know - romanticizing people in a stifling and offensive sort of way?

I really do appreciate what folks have written here, by the way…

Best,

E

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Emmy

We’re all a part of this community, presumably, because we feel some kind of resonance with one another, right? Some kind of connection? I think maybe that particular sense of resonance is important, for some people, in order to feel an attraction to another person. Need that, in itself, be a hurtful thing? If not, how does one go about elaborating on the nature of that sense of connection without being hurtful or - I don’t know - romanticizing people in a stifling and offensive sort of way?

I really do appreciate what folks have written here, by the way…

Best,

E

Don't rely on stereotypes to describe your personal attractions?

Don't debase Another's identity to better fit your own identity?


I Had More, But...,
Dylan

[Emmy]

Thank you for your reply. Please do feel free to continue; will be glad to consider and possibly address your points when they are posted in full.

In the meantime, I assume you didn't mean me in particular. A casual reader, however, may conclude otherwise. So, for the record, I haven't done so. (And, in fact, dating men, whether FTMs or not, is no threat to my identity.)

Thank you,

Emily

Originally Posted by Dylan

Don't rely on stereotypes to describe your personal attractions?

Don't debase Another's identity to better fit your own identity?


I Had More, But...,
Dylan

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Emmy

Thank you for your reply. Please do feel free to continue; will be glad to consider and possibly address your points when they are posted in full.

In the meantime, I assume you didn't mean me in particular. A casual reader, however, may conclude otherwise. So, for the record, I haven't done so. (And, in fact, dating men, whether FTMs or not, is no threat to my identity.)

Thank you,

Emily

I'm glad you assumed correctly (you had posited a query, and I was merely answering from my me space)

<insert emoticon of your choice> (unless there's a whatever floats your boat emoticon...in which case insert that one)


And A Smiley Face Here,
Dylan

[The_Lady_Snow]

I fell for a guy, his name is Grant. He did not come with this glass slipper, he did not come with a horse and shiny armor. He came with a kind heart, good intent and the willingness to hand over his life reigns to me. I humbly take them each day and look forward to a life of privacy fences, big black Fresian stallions and his blood on my sheets...

The fact he cooks, cleans, irons, and does laundry is a bonus, nothing to do with hoovey groovieness, not cause he has any form of female energy he does it cause well, it is what is and well cause I say so..

*s*

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Don't rely on stereotypes to describe your personal attractions?

Don't debase Another's identity to better fit your own identity?


I Had More, But...,
Dylan

Now we are getting off even the topic of this thread....sigh...but it IS a slow Monday for me.

This I think is part of the problem for me, once person's stereotype is another person's preference. And what if my preference happens to be a stereotype that you find distasteful? You gonna pop up and blast me for stereotyping you?? If I am posting in a thread about MY preferences, why isn't my post a reflection of me instead of you?

What I saw in that other thread that Linus magically made into this thread over here is that key words triggered a response. I GET IT. I do. I know...I see it. I know that plenty of assumptions and generalizations are made about TGs, male IDs and FTMs on the whole, based on who the Hell knows what.
BUT BUT BUT

In a thread where the OP has specifically asked for preferences, it's not possible IMO to really state them without using words that would trigger some sort of response. I didn't go listing off all the things I'd really like for that reason. I KNEW what would happen and how people get about such things. And not you, actually yeah you, lol and the collective you can get all riled when really people are just talking about what they like.

Now I get (trying to come a tad closer to the topic) that there is an idea of dual spirituality or dual gender or some dual whatever people are trying to turn it into so it all makes sense in their head. I see that as their head. And maybe, that is truly their experience with the people they have encountered. I don't know. I think it is fair for ME to say that isn't MY experience. Just as I think it would be fair for you to say that isn't YOUR experience.

I also understand that as much as others complain about chronic silencing for themselves, that truly it's not possible for TGs/FTMs/TRANS/MALE IDs to have a space that is theirs where they can celebrate who they are WHATEVER that means to them individually. What seems to happen is people feel the need to squash the maleness because, well, it's all male and instead of understanding how people feel inside it becomes more about --->WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU WANT TO ALIGN WITH MEN? When in fact, it has nothing at all to do with that.

The question is not "What is wrong with being a woman?" Which is how I read a lot of the things that are said in different threads. What seems to not be heard is that no one is saying there is anything wrong with being a woman. It's just not how everyone FEELS. It is not who they are. And comparing outsides has no bearing at all on insides. It's not a choice that people make. It IS how people are born. It is something that can't be quantified or justified. I think it's awful when who someone IS - is silenced regardless of their ID. The same fight seems to ensue in many of these threads, and it's always sad to me. There is a sense of an underlying threat or this huge misunderstanding that, as I'm reading posts, I feel like I'm the only one that's seeing it...
Both sides are coming from VERY different places and it seems like they just cannot, or will not accept people for their insides.

Just because someone was raised as a girl doesn't make them a girl. They don't have to like it or embrace it. In some cases it's traumatizing. Imagine being born in the wrong body. WHY is it so important for some that to be here, with us, EVERYONE has to be a woman or all happy about it? Why is it that if people are not, then the word misogyny starts popping up all over? Why do they have to be what other people think they have to be in order to belong? I just don't get it.

[apretty]

some of these posts have a tone of female self-subjugation.

[weatherboi]

and fetishlike

Originally Posted by apretty

some of these posts have a tone of female self-subjugation.

[Emmy]

I agree. One must not undermine another’s identity when describing one’s own attractions. And I certainly see how ascribing ‘feminine’ traits- whatever those may be, exactly- to FTMs (in particular, among men as a whole) is undermining. That’s a really important point and I’m glad this discussion is happening.

What I was wondering about, and perhaps not articulating well, was whether wishing to date or to partner with men who belong to this community, specifically, was necessarily undermining. (Maybe it is, btw- not meant to be a rhetorical question...)

Originally Posted by Dylan

Don't rely on stereotypes to describe your personal attractions?

Don't debase Another's identity to better fit your own identity?


I Had More, But...,
Dylan

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Emmy

What I was wondering about, and perhaps not articulating well, was whether wishing to date or to partner with men who belong to this community, specifically, was necessarily undermining. (Maybe it is, btw- not meant to be a rhetorical question...)

To me (and speaking only from my me place), I don't see dating people within One's community as undermining anything. Personally, if someone told me they ONLY date FTMs, I have no problem with that either. I wonder how someone would KNOW an FTM on the street from any other man, but...

I (me, me, me) DO wonder is IF and DO folks in this community who date men feel the need to either A) 'hide' that for fear of 'having their community card' taken away or B) constantly ID their partner (in some way) as 'formerly woman' or 'female bodied' for (again) fear of 'having their community card taken away'

I know very well the crap married/formerly married folks, bisexual folks, folks who partner with guys get/have gotten over the years in this community, and I just seriously wonder if this makes some people feel the need to constantly refer to their partner as FTM/trans/etc instead of just 'guy' or 'man'. Like if those people feel maybe they'll get less 'flack' and deal with less 'explaining' if they constantly refer to their partner as 'formerly-woman'.

Honestly, if One is dating only butches and transmen...I have to kind of wonder A) how do you know who's trans and who's not and B) are you seeing transmen as 'really butch women'?


Dylan

[TCB]

This is a great thread. Dylan, I always love your posts-thanks for speaking exactly what I'm thinking at times.

I shall continue to follow this thread....

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by BullDog

If a queer femme is to see trans men exactly as they see non-trans men, then in order to be attracted to a trans man she's supposed to be attracted to all men? How does this work if one is queer?

Well, I'm Queer. And I am attracted to Butches, FTMs, non-trans-guys, Drew Barrymore, Jack Black, and whoever happens to be providing me with coffee. I am quite open about my bi/pansexuality. (I hate the term pansexual because it has the word "pan" in it - irrationally.) If I weren't married and monogamous now god only knows who I would be with - but I was still dating people who were born with a penis right up until the time I started dating my spouse.

I feel like you're excluding those of us who aren't lesbians from your definition of Queer. I'm not liking it.

Originally Posted by Dylan

Shock of all shocks

Queer does NOT mean lesbian...this is NOT a lesbian community, this is a QUEER community, and QUEER doesn't mean lesbian

Nope, sure doesn't.

Originally Posted by TenderKnight

Mmmm.. You don't need to be attracted to ALL men.. But, if a queer femme is attracted to me, I would want them to be attracted to me as the man I am and always have been, rather then as someone that was a woman and now looks like a man.. you know?

Exactly. What things look like -TO ME- is a whole lot of people are attracted to the FT part of FTM.

Originally Posted by Dylan

Honestly, if One is dating only butches and transmen...I have to kind of wonder A) how do you know who's trans and who's not and B) are you seeing transmen as 'really butch women'?

In the case of some (not all) people B is what I generally suspect. I see it in real life a lot.

I come from a pretty huge city, so I have had the pleasure of being acquainted with a zillion different people. And a really big chunk (we're talking well more than half, here) of the REAL LIFE transmen I know will only date women who -do- date both trans and non-trans men. And these -are- transmen who I met in the Queer community. (I actually don't have any friends who aren't part of the Queer community - because that's who I choose to pal around with.) All I know (and this is in pretty stark contrast to what I see online) is that the majority of my FTM friends feel that it's very important to know that the people they date are attracted to who they ARE and not who they "were" or some journey they supposedly have gone on.

Also - I don't get where people are under the impression that anybody is putting the weight of understanding on the shoulder of Femmes and expecting nobody else to understand anything? Maybe I missed the post that has given people that impression - but it reads as very knee-jerky to me.