Expectations of FTMs/transsexed men (Dylan's thread)

[Toughy]

'Two Spirit' is about Native Americans.........ya know........those pesky folks who lived on this land prior to white people invading..........

I kinda wish all these white folks would stop stealing cultural terms from Native Americans. Two spirit is not for white folks to use anytime they want. Try learning before you appropriate terms from other cultures. Two spirit literally means 'having both a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit'.

I don't personally know any white FtMs/transmen who claim they have a feminine spirit. They only claim a male spirit.

Do some research folks.........

[Emmy]

I’d like to point out that answering the question of what attracts one to a specific group - whether it be men or women, in general, FTMs, MTFs, butches, femmes, etc., etc.* - would seem to require an appeal to stereotype. How else could the question be answered? And I can certainly see how, when that stereotype is articulated, it could be hurtful or offensive.

So what are we to make of that? Does it mean that all those who are not entirely pansexual trade in stereotypes, are worthy of blame? I’m honestly not sure how to work this problem out, exactly, but I do want to point out that it’s not specific to those who are attracted to FTMs…

Thanks very much!

-Emily



*Note: I am not implying here that these id’s are mutually exclusive- clearly they are not.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by adorable

Somehow they need to embrace being a woman, even though they don't FEEL that way, otherwise - they lose their queer card.

I <3 meanies.

I loved your whole post, but this part really got me, because I've known this for a long time, and I've talked about it to other guys who no longer participate on either site, but you're the first person I've seen bring it up in a post. This was especially true on the other site, but I see it happening here too.

And I wonder if this was part of Linus' thought process when he started the "Some Things Don't Need To Start With 'Trans'" thread (that's not the actual title, but I can't remember the actual title).

Guys can't just be 'guys' in this community. They have to be 'trans'guys, or 'FTMs', or (and I hate hate hate this one) 'Trans' (used as a noun as in: The Trans, or A Trans), or some other signifier to denote some sort of 'woman' aspect.

Or there's talk of 'the journey' <gag>

Or there's some comparison to 'bio' men. Or 'natal' men.

And then, we always have to 'honor our past/journey/path' what the hell ever (read: don't ever forget you're a woman)

And now, even holding the door for someone is a 'trans' guy 'thing to do'.

Or caring about One's partner is now a 'dual spirity' thing heralding back to 'womanhood'.


Thank You For Your Whole Post,
Dylan

[adorable]

I feel bad because I think poor Billy really just wanted a fun thread that would bring out those who were attracted to FTMs. LOL!

Dylan - I think it would make a great thread on it's own and seriously it's a conversation that should be had. It's important.

[TenderKnight]

Originally Posted by adorable

I feel bad because I think poor Billy really just wanted a fun thread that would bring out those who were attracted to FTMs. LOL!

Dylan - I think it would make a great thread on it's own and seriously it's a conversation that should be had. It's important.

I agree.. I think it is a good conversation and maybe a debate to be had here, but maybe not in this thread? Seems to be getting a bit *derailed*..

Dylan, I feel what you are saying, totally

[Kenna]

Originally Posted by adorable

I feel bad because I think poor Billy really just wanted a fun thread that would bring out those who were attracted to FTMs. LOL!

Dylan - I think it would make a great thread on it's own and seriously it's a conversation that should be had. It's important.

Thank you. I appreciate someone saying something...

This isn't directed at any one person or specific posts: but the tone of recent posts have prevented me from responding as I originally wanted to. An angry, bitter or condescending tone will prevent me from participating. Sorry to put this out there... maybe if I felt I wouldn't be judged so harshly, I'd be willing to participate? But I wanted to thank all that have responded. It's been a good read and interesting.

And a special thanks to Billy,

TLC to all,
Sweet

[Linus]

And if it will help, I have no issue with splitting the posts in question into a new thread and then updating the first to point back to here as a reference if that helps.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Sweet

Thank you. I appreciate someone saying something...

This isn't directed at any one person or specific posts: but the tone of recent posts have prevented me from responding as I originally wanted to. An angry, bitter or condescending tone will prevent me from participating. Sorry to put this out there... maybe if I felt I wouldn't be judged so harshly, I'd be willing to participate? But I wanted to thank all that have responded. It's been a good read and interesting.

And a special thanks to Billy,

TLC to all,
Sweet

I think that these types of threads do kind of set us up because in REALITY what we want has nothing to do with stereotypes and everything to do with what WE WANT. But if you say so - it's easy for people to jump on you and say well - that isn't what ALL x, y & z do so - you are kinda screwed by saying ANYTHING lest you be seen as stereotyping. But it's not stereotyping if that's what you want.

In a community like this where so many people have been put into boxes by society I think it's natural to want to scream sometimes that we are not all so neatly fit into boxes. It would be nice if we could all acknowledge that and move on....and be able to laugh at ourselves the same way that the rest of world does at times. We may not be there yet. The wounds keep being opened by the others, in the real world where we all have to live and fight. From the way that many of these threads go it doesn't seem so....and in some cases in the real world where you can see the way things are said, with the facial expressions that go along with it - not as much as lost in translation. I suspect that makes it harder too.

It is hard to argue with ME statements. It is hard to argue with what I would love to find in an FTM is....Or the things I would love in a Femme. If someone reacts to a ME statement that I've made - I will either ignore them or point to the ME in the sentence.

Imagine if I were to write what I wanted - HA! O-M-G. Exactly ONE person would understand it. I know that for a fact because most people don't even understand pieces of it. But it's my thing. MY thing. Judging other people's kinks, or preferences, or a certain look, or a way of life...is tough to do when it's not your thing. So is explaining why we want what we want. It's like trying to explain why we love apple pie to someone that hates it. We love it because it tastes good. They hate it because it tastes bad. Who is right? Well of course, we are because who the hell doesn't love apple pie? Weirdo's.

I used to get far more upset.

That is...until I realized everyone is full of shit and can honestly only speak for themselves. I kind of thought people knew more then I did somehow because there were all these new words and different types of people and I felt like I had missed these HUGE things going on in the world. he he he. Yeah, no one has EVERYTHING figured out. If we really did, we'd be far to busy to be here talking about it.

I think maybe staying away from generalizations helps keep people from getting so defensive. Not all. But some at least. THEN when the defensiveness starts - not reacting to it. The people who get it will get it and those who don't won't. I will sleep fine either way.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Linus

And if it will help, I have no issue with splitting the posts in question into a new thread and then updating the first to point back to here as a reference if that helps.

Could someone tell me from what post onwards to create the new thread from?

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Linus

Could someone tell me from what post onwards to create the new thread from?

I think Dylan's post #41 is a good one to use to start a thread.

[adorable]

Wow. As someone who is all kinds of non technical and computer stupid the fact that Linus just did this impresses the hell outta me. Thanks Linus!

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by adorable

I think that these types of threads do kind of set us up because in REALITY what we want has nothing to do with stereotypes and everything to do with what WE WANT. But if you say so - it's easy for people to jump on you and say well - that isn't what ALL x, y & z do so - you are kinda screwed by saying ANYTHING lest you be seen as stereotyping. But it's not stereotyping if that's what you want.

In a community like this where so many people have been put into boxes by society I think it's natural to want to scream sometimes that we are not all so neatly fit into boxes. It would be nice if we could all acknowledge that and move on....and be able to laugh at ourselves the same way that the rest of world does at times. We may not be there yet. The wounds keep being opened by the others, in the real world where we all have to live and fight. From the way that many of these threads go it doesn't seem so....and in some cases in the real world where you can see the way things are said, with the facial expressions that go along with it - not as much as lost in translation. I suspect that makes it harder too.

It is hard to argue with ME statements. It is hard to argue with what I would love to find in an FTM is....Or the things I would love in a Femme. If someone reacts to a ME statement that I've made - I will either ignore them or point to the ME in the sentence.

Imagine if I were to write what I wanted - HA! O-M-G. Exactly ONE person would understand it. I know that for a fact because most people don't even understand pieces of it. But it's my thing. MY thing. Judging other people's kinks, or preferences, or a certain look, or a way of life...is tough to do when it's not your thing. So is explaining why we want what we want. It's like trying to explain why we love apple pie to someone that hates it. We love it because it tastes good. They hate it because it tastes bad. Who is right? Well of course, we are because who the hell doesn't love apple pie? Weirdo's.

I used to get far more upset.

That is...until I realized everyone is full of shit and can honestly only speak for themselves. I kind of thought people knew more then I did somehow because there were all these new words and different types of people and I felt like I had missed these HUGE things going on in the world. he he he. Yeah, no one has EVERYTHING figured out. If we really did, we'd be far to busy to be here talking about it.

I think maybe staying away from generalizations helps keep people from getting so defensive. Not all. But some at least. THEN when the defensiveness starts - not reacting to it. The people who get it will get it and those who don't won't. I will sleep fine either way.

Yeah, ME statements ARE great. I agree. I have absolutely no problem with someone saying, "Oh, well, I like sensitive guys, and I've been fortunate to have dated some guys who were sensitive"

Yep, no problem there.

But saying, "Transmen are just so sensitive", then attributing that sensitivity to their 'woman-side', followed by de-manning them with "It's a two spirit thing" is just beyond offensive. WHY do transguys HAVE to be 'dual gendered' to be sensitive? WHY do they have to be 'put in their place, and reminded of their 'journey' <gag>"?

What is it that's so freakin' difficult to admit that transmen are men, and you (general) happened to have dated a sensitive, nice MAN? Why is it immediately chalked up to his 'woman-side/two spiritedness/dual gender/(assumed) socialization"? I mean, how is that any different than if I were to say, "Mahhh Woman is just so manly when she fixes the car?" Why is it rude to strip Mahhh Woman of her gender/sex when she does something stereotypically 'masculine', but it's perfectly acceptable to not only attribute 'being sensitive' as 'womanly', but also to then strip transmen of their sex/gender? Seriously?! If he cleans up his kitchen before you come over, did he clean it up because of his 'journey'?...his two-spiritedness?...because he 'was a woman once' and got such a good education in cleaning kitchens? Is he stripped of his manhood, once again, because he cleaned the kitchen, or because you (general) have to justify to others in the community that you've dated/are dating a man man man? Do people feel 'less stripped' of their 'queer community card' if they can keep their transman 'part woman'?

We don't date better. If you've been on a date with a guy who held doors for you, FAN-freakin'-tastic...transmen are not better daters or 'more aware'.

Yeah, I agree 100 percent that ME statements are fantastic and would definitely save a lot of this same conversation?


Dylan

[Bob]

First you say this:

Originally Posted by Dylan

I don't 'get' women anymore than your dad, brother, uncle, or cousin. If you think I'm going to want to 'process' anymore than your dad, uncle, ex husband, brother, etc...you're in for an unpleasant surprise.

And then you say this:

Originally Posted by Dylan

But saying, "Transmen are just so sensitive", then attributing that sensitivity to their 'woman-side', followed by de-manning them with "It's a two spirit thing" is just beyond offensive.

So, you are in fact saying it's okay for YOU to make sweeping generalizations about women/femmes/female-ids, but it's not okay for them to make them about you.

And by the way, this whole going on and on is exactly the sort of feminine 'processing' you appear to decry and reject in your first comment.

[Emmy]

We’re all a part of this community, presumably, because we feel some kind of resonance with one another, right? Some kind of connection? I think maybe that particular sense of resonance is important, for some people, in order to feel an attraction to another person. Need that, in itself, be a hurtful thing? If not, how does one go about elaborating on the nature of that sense of connection without being hurtful or - I don’t know - romanticizing people in a stifling and offensive sort of way?

I really do appreciate what folks have written here, by the way…

Best,

E

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Bob

First you say this:



And then you say this:



So, you are in fact saying it's okay for YOU to make sweeping generalizations about women/femmes/female-ids, but it's not okay for them to make them about you.

And by the way, this whole going on and on is exactly the sort of feminine 'processing' you appear to decry and reject in your first comment.

I'm wondering if you've missed part of this conversation, because some of the posts from the original thread are missing.

I don't see where, from your examples, I've made any sweeping generalizations about all women/femmes/female-IDs. In the quotes you've pulled, I'm talking to a specific group of people who made comments regarding 'two-spiritedness', 'sensitivity', 'talking about things (i.e. processing)', and a few other stereotypes and 'stereotypically feminine/womanly' notions re: emotions and so on.

The context of my posts obviously did not transfer with The Great Thread Move of SomeMondayInMay, 2010. One is missing a lot by not reading the thread from which this thread spawned.


D

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Emmy

We’re all a part of this community, presumably, because we feel some kind of resonance with one another, right? Some kind of connection? I think maybe that particular sense of resonance is important, for some people, in order to feel an attraction to another person. Need that, in itself, be a hurtful thing? If not, how does one go about elaborating on the nature of that sense of connection without being hurtful or - I don’t know - romanticizing people in a stifling and offensive sort of way?

I really do appreciate what folks have written here, by the way…

Best,

E

Don't rely on stereotypes to describe your personal attractions?

Don't debase Another's identity to better fit your own identity?


I Had More, But...,
Dylan

[Emmy]

Thank you for your reply. Please do feel free to continue; will be glad to consider and possibly address your points when they are posted in full.

In the meantime, I assume you didn't mean me in particular. A casual reader, however, may conclude otherwise. So, for the record, I haven't done so. (And, in fact, dating men, whether FTMs or not, is no threat to my identity.)

Thank you,

Emily

Originally Posted by Dylan

Don't rely on stereotypes to describe your personal attractions?

Don't debase Another's identity to better fit your own identity?


I Had More, But...,
Dylan

[The_Lady_Snow]

I fell for a guy, his name is Grant. He did not come with this glass slipper, he did not come with a horse and shiny armor. He came with a kind heart, good intent and the willingness to hand over his life reigns to me. I humbly take them each day and look forward to a life of privacy fences, big black Fresian stallions and his blood on my sheets...

The fact he cooks, cleans, irons, and does laundry is a bonus, nothing to do with hoovey groovieness, not cause he has any form of female energy he does it cause well, it is what is and well cause I say so..

*s*

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Emmy

Thank you for your reply. Please do feel free to continue; will be glad to consider and possibly address your points when they are posted in full.

In the meantime, I assume you didn't mean me in particular. A casual reader, however, may conclude otherwise. So, for the record, I haven't done so. (And, in fact, dating men, whether FTMs or not, is no threat to my identity.)

Thank you,

Emily

I'm glad you assumed correctly (you had posited a query, and I was merely answering from my me space)

<insert emoticon of your choice> (unless there's a whatever floats your boat emoticon...in which case insert that one)


And A Smiley Face Here,
Dylan

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Don't rely on stereotypes to describe your personal attractions?

Don't debase Another's identity to better fit your own identity?


I Had More, But...,
Dylan

Now we are getting off even the topic of this thread....sigh...but it IS a slow Monday for me.

This I think is part of the problem for me, once person's stereotype is another person's preference. And what if my preference happens to be a stereotype that you find distasteful? You gonna pop up and blast me for stereotyping you?? If I am posting in a thread about MY preferences, why isn't my post a reflection of me instead of you?

What I saw in that other thread that Linus magically made into this thread over here is that key words triggered a response. I GET IT. I do. I know...I see it. I know that plenty of assumptions and generalizations are made about TGs, male IDs and FTMs on the whole, based on who the Hell knows what.
BUT BUT BUT

In a thread where the OP has specifically asked for preferences, it's not possible IMO to really state them without using words that would trigger some sort of response. I didn't go listing off all the things I'd really like for that reason. I KNEW what would happen and how people get about such things. And not you, actually yeah you, lol and the collective you can get all riled when really people are just talking about what they like.

Now I get (trying to come a tad closer to the topic) that there is an idea of dual spirituality or dual gender or some dual whatever people are trying to turn it into so it all makes sense in their head. I see that as their head. And maybe, that is truly their experience with the people they have encountered. I don't know. I think it is fair for ME to say that isn't MY experience. Just as I think it would be fair for you to say that isn't YOUR experience.

I also understand that as much as others complain about chronic silencing for themselves, that truly it's not possible for TGs/FTMs/TRANS/MALE IDs to have a space that is theirs where they can celebrate who they are WHATEVER that means to them individually. What seems to happen is people feel the need to squash the maleness because, well, it's all male and instead of understanding how people feel inside it becomes more about --->WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU WANT TO ALIGN WITH MEN? When in fact, it has nothing at all to do with that.

The question is not "What is wrong with being a woman?" Which is how I read a lot of the things that are said in different threads. What seems to not be heard is that no one is saying there is anything wrong with being a woman. It's just not how everyone FEELS. It is not who they are. And comparing outsides has no bearing at all on insides. It's not a choice that people make. It IS how people are born. It is something that can't be quantified or justified. I think it's awful when who someone IS - is silenced regardless of their ID. The same fight seems to ensue in many of these threads, and it's always sad to me. There is a sense of an underlying threat or this huge misunderstanding that, as I'm reading posts, I feel like I'm the only one that's seeing it...
Both sides are coming from VERY different places and it seems like they just cannot, or will not accept people for their insides.

Just because someone was raised as a girl doesn't make them a girl. They don't have to like it or embrace it. In some cases it's traumatizing. Imagine being born in the wrong body. WHY is it so important for some that to be here, with us, EVERYONE has to be a woman or all happy about it? Why is it that if people are not, then the word misogyny starts popping up all over? Why do they have to be what other people think they have to be in order to belong? I just don't get it.