Expectations of FTMs/transsexed men (Dylan's thread)

[adorable]

I feel bad because I think poor Billy really just wanted a fun thread that would bring out those who were attracted to FTMs. LOL!

Dylan - I think it would make a great thread on it's own and seriously it's a conversation that should be had. It's important.

[TenderKnight]

Originally Posted by adorable

I feel bad because I think poor Billy really just wanted a fun thread that would bring out those who were attracted to FTMs. LOL!

Dylan - I think it would make a great thread on it's own and seriously it's a conversation that should be had. It's important.

I agree.. I think it is a good conversation and maybe a debate to be had here, but maybe not in this thread? Seems to be getting a bit *derailed*..

Dylan, I feel what you are saying, totally

[Kenna]

Originally Posted by adorable

I feel bad because I think poor Billy really just wanted a fun thread that would bring out those who were attracted to FTMs. LOL!

Dylan - I think it would make a great thread on it's own and seriously it's a conversation that should be had. It's important.

Thank you. I appreciate someone saying something...

This isn't directed at any one person or specific posts: but the tone of recent posts have prevented me from responding as I originally wanted to. An angry, bitter or condescending tone will prevent me from participating. Sorry to put this out there... maybe if I felt I wouldn't be judged so harshly, I'd be willing to participate? But I wanted to thank all that have responded. It's been a good read and interesting.

And a special thanks to Billy,

TLC to all,
Sweet

[Linus]

And if it will help, I have no issue with splitting the posts in question into a new thread and then updating the first to point back to here as a reference if that helps.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Linus

And if it will help, I have no issue with splitting the posts in question into a new thread and then updating the first to point back to here as a reference if that helps.

Could someone tell me from what post onwards to create the new thread from?

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Linus

Could someone tell me from what post onwards to create the new thread from?

I think Dylan's post #41 is a good one to use to start a thread.

[adorable]

Wow. As someone who is all kinds of non technical and computer stupid the fact that Linus just did this impresses the hell outta me. Thanks Linus!

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Sweet

Thank you. I appreciate someone saying something...

This isn't directed at any one person or specific posts: but the tone of recent posts have prevented me from responding as I originally wanted to. An angry, bitter or condescending tone will prevent me from participating. Sorry to put this out there... maybe if I felt I wouldn't be judged so harshly, I'd be willing to participate? But I wanted to thank all that have responded. It's been a good read and interesting.

And a special thanks to Billy,

TLC to all,
Sweet

I think that these types of threads do kind of set us up because in REALITY what we want has nothing to do with stereotypes and everything to do with what WE WANT. But if you say so - it's easy for people to jump on you and say well - that isn't what ALL x, y & z do so - you are kinda screwed by saying ANYTHING lest you be seen as stereotyping. But it's not stereotyping if that's what you want.

In a community like this where so many people have been put into boxes by society I think it's natural to want to scream sometimes that we are not all so neatly fit into boxes. It would be nice if we could all acknowledge that and move on....and be able to laugh at ourselves the same way that the rest of world does at times. We may not be there yet. The wounds keep being opened by the others, in the real world where we all have to live and fight. From the way that many of these threads go it doesn't seem so....and in some cases in the real world where you can see the way things are said, with the facial expressions that go along with it - not as much as lost in translation. I suspect that makes it harder too.

It is hard to argue with ME statements. It is hard to argue with what I would love to find in an FTM is....Or the things I would love in a Femme. If someone reacts to a ME statement that I've made - I will either ignore them or point to the ME in the sentence.

Imagine if I were to write what I wanted - HA! O-M-G. Exactly ONE person would understand it. I know that for a fact because most people don't even understand pieces of it. But it's my thing. MY thing. Judging other people's kinks, or preferences, or a certain look, or a way of life...is tough to do when it's not your thing. So is explaining why we want what we want. It's like trying to explain why we love apple pie to someone that hates it. We love it because it tastes good. They hate it because it tastes bad. Who is right? Well of course, we are because who the hell doesn't love apple pie? Weirdo's.

I used to get far more upset.

That is...until I realized everyone is full of shit and can honestly only speak for themselves. I kind of thought people knew more then I did somehow because there were all these new words and different types of people and I felt like I had missed these HUGE things going on in the world. he he he. Yeah, no one has EVERYTHING figured out. If we really did, we'd be far to busy to be here talking about it.

I think maybe staying away from generalizations helps keep people from getting so defensive. Not all. But some at least. THEN when the defensiveness starts - not reacting to it. The people who get it will get it and those who don't won't. I will sleep fine either way.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by adorable

I think that these types of threads do kind of set us up because in REALITY what we want has nothing to do with stereotypes and everything to do with what WE WANT. But if you say so - it's easy for people to jump on you and say well - that isn't what ALL x, y & z do so - you are kinda screwed by saying ANYTHING lest you be seen as stereotyping. But it's not stereotyping if that's what you want.

In a community like this where so many people have been put into boxes by society I think it's natural to want to scream sometimes that we are not all so neatly fit into boxes. It would be nice if we could all acknowledge that and move on....and be able to laugh at ourselves the same way that the rest of world does at times. We may not be there yet. The wounds keep being opened by the others, in the real world where we all have to live and fight. From the way that many of these threads go it doesn't seem so....and in some cases in the real world where you can see the way things are said, with the facial expressions that go along with it - not as much as lost in translation. I suspect that makes it harder too.

It is hard to argue with ME statements. It is hard to argue with what I would love to find in an FTM is....Or the things I would love in a Femme. If someone reacts to a ME statement that I've made - I will either ignore them or point to the ME in the sentence.

Imagine if I were to write what I wanted - HA! O-M-G. Exactly ONE person would understand it. I know that for a fact because most people don't even understand pieces of it. But it's my thing. MY thing. Judging other people's kinks, or preferences, or a certain look, or a way of life...is tough to do when it's not your thing. So is explaining why we want what we want. It's like trying to explain why we love apple pie to someone that hates it. We love it because it tastes good. They hate it because it tastes bad. Who is right? Well of course, we are because who the hell doesn't love apple pie? Weirdo's.

I used to get far more upset.

That is...until I realized everyone is full of shit and can honestly only speak for themselves. I kind of thought people knew more then I did somehow because there were all these new words and different types of people and I felt like I had missed these HUGE things going on in the world. he he he. Yeah, no one has EVERYTHING figured out. If we really did, we'd be far to busy to be here talking about it.

I think maybe staying away from generalizations helps keep people from getting so defensive. Not all. But some at least. THEN when the defensiveness starts - not reacting to it. The people who get it will get it and those who don't won't. I will sleep fine either way.

Yeah, ME statements ARE great. I agree. I have absolutely no problem with someone saying, "Oh, well, I like sensitive guys, and I've been fortunate to have dated some guys who were sensitive"

Yep, no problem there.

But saying, "Transmen are just so sensitive", then attributing that sensitivity to their 'woman-side', followed by de-manning them with "It's a two spirit thing" is just beyond offensive. WHY do transguys HAVE to be 'dual gendered' to be sensitive? WHY do they have to be 'put in their place, and reminded of their 'journey' <gag>"?

What is it that's so freakin' difficult to admit that transmen are men, and you (general) happened to have dated a sensitive, nice MAN? Why is it immediately chalked up to his 'woman-side/two spiritedness/dual gender/(assumed) socialization"? I mean, how is that any different than if I were to say, "Mahhh Woman is just so manly when she fixes the car?" Why is it rude to strip Mahhh Woman of her gender/sex when she does something stereotypically 'masculine', but it's perfectly acceptable to not only attribute 'being sensitive' as 'womanly', but also to then strip transmen of their sex/gender? Seriously?! If he cleans up his kitchen before you come over, did he clean it up because of his 'journey'?...his two-spiritedness?...because he 'was a woman once' and got such a good education in cleaning kitchens? Is he stripped of his manhood, once again, because he cleaned the kitchen, or because you (general) have to justify to others in the community that you've dated/are dating a man man man? Do people feel 'less stripped' of their 'queer community card' if they can keep their transman 'part woman'?

We don't date better. If you've been on a date with a guy who held doors for you, FAN-freakin'-tastic...transmen are not better daters or 'more aware'.

Yeah, I agree 100 percent that ME statements are fantastic and would definitely save a lot of this same conversation?


Dylan

[Bob]

First you say this:

Originally Posted by Dylan

I don't 'get' women anymore than your dad, brother, uncle, or cousin. If you think I'm going to want to 'process' anymore than your dad, uncle, ex husband, brother, etc...you're in for an unpleasant surprise.

And then you say this:

Originally Posted by Dylan

But saying, "Transmen are just so sensitive", then attributing that sensitivity to their 'woman-side', followed by de-manning them with "It's a two spirit thing" is just beyond offensive.

So, you are in fact saying it's okay for YOU to make sweeping generalizations about women/femmes/female-ids, but it's not okay for them to make them about you.

And by the way, this whole going on and on is exactly the sort of feminine 'processing' you appear to decry and reject in your first comment.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Bob

First you say this:



And then you say this:



So, you are in fact saying it's okay for YOU to make sweeping generalizations about women/femmes/female-ids, but it's not okay for them to make them about you.

And by the way, this whole going on and on is exactly the sort of feminine 'processing' you appear to decry and reject in your first comment.

I'm wondering if you've missed part of this conversation, because some of the posts from the original thread are missing.

I don't see where, from your examples, I've made any sweeping generalizations about all women/femmes/female-IDs. In the quotes you've pulled, I'm talking to a specific group of people who made comments regarding 'two-spiritedness', 'sensitivity', 'talking about things (i.e. processing)', and a few other stereotypes and 'stereotypically feminine/womanly' notions re: emotions and so on.

The context of my posts obviously did not transfer with The Great Thread Move of SomeMondayInMay, 2010. One is missing a lot by not reading the thread from which this thread spawned.


D