What attracts you to Ftms ......

[Toughy]

Linus took this post to the other thread. It actually belongs in here, although probably has a place in the new thread.


'Two Spirit' is about Native Americans.........ya know........those pesky folks who lived on this land prior to white people invading..........

I kinda wish all these white folks would stop stealing cultural terms from Native Americans. Two spirit is not for white folks to use anytime they want. Try learning before you appropriate terms from other cultures. Two spirit literally means 'having both a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit'.

I don't personally know any white FtMs/transmen who claim they have a feminine spirit. They only claim a male spirit.

Do some research folks.........

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Linus took this post to the other thread. It actually belongs in here, although probably has a place in the new thread.


'Two Spirit' is about Native Americans.........ya know........those pesky folks who lived on this land prior to white people invading..........

I kinda wish all these white folks would stop stealing cultural terms from Native Americans. Two spirit is not for white folks to use anytime they want. Try learning before you appropriate terms from other cultures. Two spirit literally means 'having both a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit'.

I don't personally know any white FtMs/transmen who claim they have a feminine spirit. They only claim a male spirit.

Do some research folks.........

I'm not sure I should even address this, however, the reason I used the term "two~spirited" was because I had been told by a Transman that He is two~spirited person. And, while He does have a portion of American Indian blood coursing through His veins, He also has Italian, Filipino and Hispanic bloodlines.

So....while what I have experienced with this one Guy is Male, He claims His second spirit as well, and I accept that.

[chefhmboyrd]

can someone please explain to me WTF Cis means?
Mommie said that it is being the gender you were born/appear to be
uh...... WHAT?

so....
a Cis Man is a bio man?
and a Cis Woman is a bio woman?

really?
am i getting this right?

HELP!!!!

[Soft*Silver]

I am not a native american. And I despise when capitalism eats up the Native Culture and only nourishes the whites. I fear for the individuals from both the Native Culture and the White Culture when they are insensitive to one another. I am appalled and saddened by how whites have desecrated and destroyed the land that they literally stole from the Native Americans.

In saying this (and yes it is all heart felt) I am also saddened when a member of the white culture tries to honor the traditions and spirituality of the Native Culture and gets slammed for not getting it "right". The reaction given to usage of the term "two spirited" is more racist and prejudicial than the intent behind the post about two spirits.

I have spent my lifetime trying to be as sensitive as possible to people and living things around me. But it has to work both ways if its really going to work and leave a positive imprint. Sensitivity has to be given when genuine efforts are made and failed. In either direction.

When its not given, and veiled (or unveiled) hostility is grouched out, it only serves to make the other defensive. And worse, any who witness it, also learn that any attempts that fail, will result in being attacked, so why bother to try?

I myself loath when white females write books about native culture and spirituality and make thousands of dollars off it and give nothing to the culture they took it from. I refuse to buy the books. And I have brought my daughter up to see this as wrong, as well. And she has taught others to see this. And they have taught others...it is the web of communication, tightened by the spirituality of people who regardless of what they call it, are honoring the spirituality of others.


tones in posts can put a stop to any learning..

as for two spirited folks, I actually would like to know more about it now that its been brought up that my understanding of it might be whitened and not be correct at all. So I am going to do my research..not because I was shamed or scolded into it, but because I can read the value of the post, regardless of the tone that was used.

and I believe some FtM people might indeed see themselves as two spirited. But I will let others speak on that regard...

[Liam]

Originally Posted by chefhmboyrd

can someone please explain to me WTF Cis means?
Mommie said that it is being the gender you were born/appear to be
uh...... WHAT?

so....
a Cis Man is a bio man?
and a Cis Woman is a bio woman?

really?
am i getting this right?

HELP!!!!

This link was posted in another thread, you might find it illuminating:

http://juliaserano.livejournal.com/14700.html

[Leigh]

I do understand that a good many FTM's only view themselves as having a male spirit, Myself included, but what I don't get is why can't an FTM view himself as being two-spirited? Who says that a transguy can't also have even just a small big of a female spirit inside of him?

I don't get that

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Braedon

I do understand that a good many FTM's only view themselves as having a male spirit, Myself included, but what I don't get is why can't an FTM view himself as being two-spirited? Who says that a transguy can't also have even just a small big of a female spirit inside of him?

I don't get that

I don't believe that Toughy's concern was about the insinuation that transguys might have/identify with a portion of female spirit - I DO believe that Toughy's concern was about appropriation.

[Spirit Dancer]

Originally Posted by Diva

I'm not sure I should even address this, however, the reason I used the term "two~spirited" was because I had been told by a Transman that He is two~spirited person. And, while He does have a portion of American Indian blood coursing through His veins, He also has Italian, Filipino and Hispanic bloodlines.

So....while what I have experienced with this one Guy is Male, He claims His second spirit as well, and I accept that.

As a native american woman and a two spirited person, I just wanted to share this with you all.

A direct translation of the Ojibwe term, Niizh manidoowag, "two-spirited" or "two-spirit" is usually used to indicate a person whose body simultaneously houses a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit.
We are proud to be two spirited and I honour both my female and male spirit and energy.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by Spirit Dancer

As a native american woman and a two spirited person, I just wanted to share this with you all.

A direct translation of the Ojibwe term, Niizh manidoowag, "two-spirited" or "two-spirit" is usually used to indicate a person whose body simultaneously houses a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit.
We are proud to be two spirited and I honour both my female and male spirit and energy.

This is exactly right and although expressed in many words and cultures we all should strive for this balance on a microcosmic level. How we physically manifest and experience this here and now is our identity for this life time.

IMO there are two spirit 3rd sex people that present an androgynous form and spirit. It seems that, from what I have personally encounter, they are often thought of as transgendered and even thought that would mean "in transition" they clearly are happy where they are and often accept being called "trans". I'm not saying this is right or wrong and obviously everyone has a preference. I don't think its for any of us to judge or try and define. As with anything in life the rules often change to meet needs. We should try and be more flexible, especially when it comes to words.

Most of my life I've dated very masculine butches and those that considered themselves "third sex" their words not mine. I enjoyed and connected with them because I could sense and feel both male and female. When I decided to take it a step further and enter into the FTM world I realized it probably wasn't for me. If he wanted to live as a man yet balanced his masculine and feminine energy rather then get angry and deny I might be more receptive but thus far I have not experienced it.

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by Sachita

Most of my life I've dated very masculine butches and those that considered themselves "third sex" their words not mine. I enjoyed and connected with them because I could sense and feel both male and female. When I decided to take it a step further and enter into the FTM world I realized it probably wasn't for me. If he wanted to live as a man yet balanced his masculine and feminine energy rather then get angry and deny I might be more receptive but thus far I have not experienced it.

maybe the guy got angry when you spoke with him about this because you were trying to get him to be who you wanted. maybe he was angry because you had an expectation that was not disclosed to him in the beginning of the rship. maybe you didnt give him a safe space. i don't know. my transition has been private and i like it that way. i still find it hard to talk about certain things about how i feel at a certain time of the month. my monthly reminder that my female body does not match my male mind. my therapy and support group talks about all that. the last thing i wanna deal with is my beloved having an expectation that i am male/female balanced. IMO i am weary of you because of your postings as of late. they could be taken as anti male and then i read this post and feel it is confirmed for me. soooo i am reading this as another post with an underlying transphobic message. the thread is what attracts you to ftms not what doesnt attract you to ftms. so why post something in here negative?? i don't get it??

[Leigh]

I know that there are women out there who won't or cannot, for one reason or another, date an FTM and thats ok but I think that if someone wants to express that they are unable to date an FTM it should be put into another thread not in this one. As an FTM Myself, I don't expect every woman out there to be able to date Me but because this thread is dedicated to those who are attracted to guys like Me I'd appreciate just hearing positive things about what attracts someone to us

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

maybe the guy got angry when you spoke with him about this because you were trying to get him to be who you wanted. maybe he was angry because you had an expectation that was not disclosed to him in the beginning of the rship. maybe you didnt give him a safe space. i don't know. my transition has been private and i like it that way. i still find it hard to talk about certain things about how i feel at a certain time of the month. my monthly reminder that my female body does not match my male mind. my therapy and support group talks about all that. the last thing i wanna deal with is my beloved having an expectation that i am male/female balanced. IMO i am weary of you because of your postings as of late. they could be taken as anti male and then i read this post and feel it is confirmed for me. soooo i am reading this as another post with an underlying transphobic message. the thread is what attracts you to ftms not what doesnt attract you to ftms. so why post something in here negative?? i don't get it??

I'm sorry if I came across that way. It's not my intention. I responded to her post and my perception. You're probably right though in that my experience and opinions have changed. As for my past relationships it wasn't about any of that. Those observations I made later in retrospect. There were other issues. My reference was to two spirits and how it relates to FTM. I simply gave my opinion and honestly stated what I am attracted to and looking for. It wasn't transphobic or anything else.

here we go again...

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Diva

I'm not sure I should even address this, however, the reason I used the term "two~spirited" was because I had been told by a Transman that He is two~spirited person. And, while He does have a portion of American Indian blood coursing through His veins, He also has Italian, Filipino and Hispanic bloodlines.

So....while what I have experienced with this one Guy is Male, He claims His second spirit as well, and I accept that.

I totally get what you are saying here. My point is/was that unless he identifies as Native American, he is appropriating a Native concept.

I could call myself two-spirit.....it really does fit me.....however it would be appropriation..........even though I was actively involved in BAAITS at one time. I may have some Cherokee blood through my mother's mother's mother's mother, however that does not make me Native American.

[Soft*Silver]

I sit here drinking my morning (afternoon) coffee and am reading this thread.
A few things come to mind that I will share...

TO transition does not mean a simple nip and tuck here and there and wallahhh....someone is the gender they want to be.

One, they already ARE the gender they want to be. The transformation just aligns them up correctly.

Two, transition involve physical, mental, and spiritual alignments. Physical is just one part of it.

Three, anothe huge part of it is social. While the FtM is transitioning, they also must deal with the societal perceptions, which include family and loved ones. And also included members of their affiliations, including this forum.

Four, while they are transitioning, they will bump into people who are evolving. Some more evolved than others. Some evolved in many areas but not in this area.

Five, When words are offered,they will be read in exactly the level of evolution the reader is in, and will also be presented in exactly the level of evolution the writer is in.

Six, these two might not always match up

Seven, when this happens it might feel like a confrontation. Actually, its a unique opportunity to learn. And they will learn regardless of how it is handled.

Eight, what they learn will depend on how sensitively each will handle the other with

Nine, this is a necessary part of transitioning and evolving

Ten, we can all learn from one another. And support one another, with kindness or with flames...both indicate a deep investment in this process


I have learned quite a bit in this thread and I thank all the people who have contributed. I support all of you...wherever you are in your transitioning and evolvement. You have added to my evolution. I come to these sights so that I can connect with my community. And in doing so, I have had to learn to be more sensitive, be more understanding, shut my mouth more often than I was used to, and speak from my place and no one elses.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Linus took this post to the other thread. It actually belongs in here, although probably has a place in the new thread.


'Two Spirit' is about Native Americans.........ya know........those pesky folks who lived on this land prior to white people invading..........

I kinda wish all these white folks would stop stealing cultural terms from Native Americans. Two spirit is not for white folks to use anytime they want. Try learning before you appropriate terms from other cultures. Two spirit literally means 'having both a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit'.

I don't personally know any white FtMs/transmen who claim they have a feminine spirit. They only claim a male spirit.

Do some research folks.........

This was my post....it's post #49. Diva responded to it a bit later on.....post #75. Diva's original post that caused my post was before #49.

And yes........my response was about cultural appropriation.

here is a link for a local two-spirit group http://www.baaits.org/

other two spirit info can be found here:
http://www.nativeout.com/