Expectations of FTMs/transsexed men (Dylan's thread)

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

So, when people ask you to clarify a statement you're going to use snark in order to get out of clarifying? Neat.

And of course I know that you know Gay men exist. You said that Bisexual Men tend to hang out in the Gay Male community rather than in the Queer community - so I gathered from that that you were aware of the existence of the Gay Male.

What looks like a lot of double-standards to you, and in which way?

What was I supposed to clarify? I scrolled up, but not sure.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by BullDog

What was I supposed to clarify? I scrolled up, but not sure.

And quoting myself:

Originally Posted by betenoire

I was referring to this statement:

"How does this (also dating non-trans men) work if one is queer?"

Since you did not mean that it was unqueer to date non-trans men...what -did- you mean, exactly?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire View Post
I was referring to this statement:

"How does this (also dating non-trans men) work if one is queer?"

Since you did not mean that it was unqueer to date non-trans men...what -did- you mean, exactly?

I was asking a question, not making a statement. My own view is if someone is queer, they are queer no matter who they date. I don't understand why it's a requirement for someone who might be attracted to transmen and/or FTMs who are part of a queer community to also be obligated- at least theoretically- be willing to date cis men. I seriously don't get it.

As to the double standards, I agree with Martina. This is how it looks to me.

Originally Posted by Martina

i think the queer femmes who ID as transensual or however -- that they prefer to date transguys -- get enormous amounts of shit, some of it blatantly sexist. They are labelled fetishists. They are accused of seeing transmen as other than men. i was told by one transguy that queer femmes are not "real woman" and that a real woman is someone who knows how to be with a man. He felt that if a woman did not like cisgendered men that the fact that she liked him was demeaning to him.

[betenoire]

Oh, I see. So even though you put "If a queer femme is to see trans men exactly as they see non-trans men, then in order to be attracted to a trans man she's supposed to be attracted to all men?" and "How does this work if one is queer?" immediately following each other in the same paragraph (only things that were in that paragraph, in fact) the two questions had nothing to do with each other. You just forgot to hit the enter key between your two separate and completely unrelated thoughts, is all. Got it.

I'm sorry that you cannot see how being attracted to FTMs but not to non-trans men can be hurtful to (some) guys. All men are men. They just are. FTMs are not ex-women, they're men.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

Oh, I see. So even though you put "If a queer femme is to see trans men exactly as they see non-trans men, then in order to be attracted to a trans man she's supposed to be attracted to all men?" and "How does this work if one is queer?" immediately following each other in the same paragraph (only things that were in that paragraph, in fact) the two questions had nothing to do with each other. You just forgot to hit the enter key between your two separate and completely unrelated thoughts, is all. Got it.

I'm sorry that you cannot see how being attracted to FTMs but not to non-trans men can be hurtful to (some) guys. All men are men. They just are. FTMs are not ex-women, they're men.

No those two sentences go together exactly as I wrote them.

A transman is a man. A cis man is a man. Is there only one type of man? There are lots of different types of women- one type no better than the other. A transwoman is a woman, a butch woman is a woman, a femme woman is a woman, a straight woman is a woman, etc. None are less than or better "women."

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by BullDog

A transman is a man. A cis man is a man. Is there only one type of man? There are lots of different types of women- one type no better than the other. A transwoman is a woman, a butch woman is a woman, a femme woman is a woman, a straight woman is a woman, etc. None are less than or better "women."

You get that being a woman (trans or otherwise) is a sex, and that butch and femme are genders, and that straight is a sexual orientation....right?

butch, femme, straight, queer, artistic, conservative, sporty, aggressive...those are different ways of being a woman. yes.

but transwoman and non-trans woman? those are not two different ways of being a woman. your sex is your sex. period.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

You get that being a woman (trans or otherwise) is a sex, and that butch and femme are genders, and that straight is a sexual orientation....right?

butch, femme, straight, queer, artistic, conservative, sporty, aggressive...those are different ways of being a woman. yes.

but transwoman and non-trans woman? those are not two different ways of being a woman. your sex is your sex. period.

Yes Betenoire, I am perfectly clear on all of that.

People keep talking about man in these discussions when I think they are really talking about male.

Man and woman are gender. Male and female are biological sex.

Edit: actually I think of woman as gender, so I don't agree with the first part of what you said. Female is biological sex, woman is gender.

[Martina]

The arrogance of anyone being offended because someone is attracted to them amazes me. If someone is attracted to you, even if you aren't to them, that is a compliment, a sweet thing.

If a transguy wants to date women who date cismen, i get it. That's fine. Going out of his way to criticize a woman who is not interested in cismen but may be in him or another transguy -- i don't get it. It's unnecessary.

The implication is that your identity as a man is dependent on, or at least can be affected by, the kind of attention you receive from women or the kind of women you receive attention from.

As a girl, i was certainly taught that my identity as a woman was dependent on the attentions of men, but i outgrew that.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Martina

The arrogance of anyone being offended because someone is attracted to them amazes me. If someone is attracted to you, even if you aren't to them, that is a compliment, a sweet thing.

If a transguy wants to date women who date cismen, i get it. That's fine. Going out of his way to criticize a woman who is not interested in cismen but may be in him or another transguy -- i don't get it. It's unnecessary.

The implication is that your identity as a man is dependent on, or at least can be affected by, the kind of attention you receive from women or the kind of women you receive attention from.

As a girl, i was certainly taught that my identity as a woman was dependent on the attentions of men, but i outgrew that.

And if I say, "I'm attracted to you, because I see you as a straight woman", am I attracted to YOU or some picture of you I'VE created?

If you keep saying, "Um, I'm not straight", but I keep saying, "Oh yeah, queer, lesbian, straight, whatever"...is that being attracted to YOU or some picture I've created?


Dylan

Also, may I asked who criticized any woman on this site for not dating cismen?