Expectations of FTMs/transsexed men (Dylan's thread)

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Martina

"soooooooooo compelled to keep their transmen 'formerly female'?" -- Is that what you see a lot of femmes doing?

Even if they are, the guys have some say in it. i am just into hearing how femmes are not respecting transguys sufficiently for their maleness.

If you think it's a response to community pressures, i get that. But what role does the guy have? i don't imagine it to be easy for these couples, but why is this all about what the femme needs to do?

What i see on this site -- most of the transmen i know in real life date men -- are women celebrating the maleness of their partners.

What i do agree with you about is that this is probably not a comfortable space for guys to just celebrate being guys. i have seen a few attempts at that and cringed. It was in the trans zone, so i was like, not my business. But i personally do not enjoy witnessing men celebrating their man-ness or whatever. In a way that's too bad. But i am a dyke and a woman of my generation. That doesn't mean my reaction ought to affect how community works. But i am sure that others might pick up on it, even unexpressed.

We all should be able to shiver with pleasure and say, oooo, how wonderful am i. But it's sort of a select audience one does that with. i am femme, and i get squicked by the very conventional femmes and butches celebrating their very conventional gender play on here. But i assume this is the place for it. i am not sure that this is the place for men to be celebrating being men. Maybe it is. If it is, i guess it's up to me to ignore it or deal, just as i do with the heteronormative butch-femme stuff i sometimes have issues with

I love the honesty in this statement. And to me this is what the thread is about. Why can men not celebrate being men? What is it that squicks you?

I bet a ton of money (ok, well really $5) that there are lots of TGs, male IDs, Trans, FTMs watching this conversation and wanting to say something but they just don't dare. I hope that will change.

What I know for sure as a woman that when I'm in public with my guy SOCIETY sees us as queer. We are not given straight privilege. Our experiences in the world are no different then the other Femme-Butch dynamic couples. I also know that the world doesn't see him as a man and that he sure can't celebrate his maleness out there either. Some Male IDs, FTMs, TGs and Trans can pass as men so can some butches. Some can all the time and some not.

What is it about being a man that makes people so uncomfortable? Why do we feel compelled as a community to silence that? In the gay male community it doesn't seem to be that way from what I've seen online and in real time.

[adorable]

I thought this was interesting.

http://gayrights.change.org/blog/vie...eople_is_bogus


And I thought this was really interesting too. It is more of a book review but it states some of the things that I have heard very well.

http://veganideal.org/content/our-bo...sexual-healing

[The_Lady_Snow]

*I* happen to Own 2 guys, Nico and Grant. I don't see them as this brand spanking new version of *man* they are who they are, both with different journeys, stories and backgrounds. They are both members of our Queer community, be it here at home, or here on the interwebs. I am perturbed at the fact that someone would say that it squicks them out for them to go into a forum that has been spaced out for them, into a thread that is spaced out for them and for them to thump their chests if they so please (with permission of course).

We don't face any problem regarding our Queerdom around town, or at any functions or any of the places we frequent. I do feel that maybe just maybe I sense a lil misandry going on just a touch. I hope that at least one will come in here and speak of his place and his right to be in this community. Nico does not have the allowance since when we talk about it here at home his head wants to explode so I would rather it not explode here and him get put in the corner THEN have to deal with me, which is by far worse.

*I* this is me speaking from my me space, feel it to be oogy when expectations are put on these guys by ANYONE so when I see a post about glass slippers, and dual spirituality and how they are so sensitive cause they were women at one time... It oogs me out when I see it done to butches as well, cause lemme tell you, both my guys are sensitive, I AM NOT does this make me a guy? No... Both my guys clean, cook and make things comfy for me.. Does this make them female like? No... Both my guys are not the stereotypical masculines, I on the other hand for a girl am... That kind of fethisizing is creepy and just sets one up for failure...

*I* don't limit myself to a specific kind of person to date, I like to date and fuck whomever I am attracted to that falls into our beautiful gender spectrum. Happens to be that I fell for a guy. I don't feel that this does not leave me a space here in BF Planet though I never really fell into the umbrella of butch femme relationships. I found and find them to be to stiffling for *me* though it does work for others!!

*I* also get twitchy when I see men refered to as creepy crawlers and other names, here's why. I am a mother of 3 men, and frankly not all men regardless if they are queer, straight, gay, bi have faults, just as we do, not ALL men are going to be knuckle draggers, just as not all women fit into the whole *stepford* picture perfect kinda thang. I hope I really do that we can all agree that there is a place for the men in our community, and if they choose to have a thread where they go say whatever well we can either go read it and A. ignore it B. read it and start a thread discussing what is going on without being ugly and C. just be appreciative we have somewhere to go online

That is all I have a carpet to clean.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I am perturbed at the fact that someone would say that it squicks them out for them to go into a forum that has been spaced out for them, into a thread that is spaced out for them and for them to thump their chests if they so please (with permission of course).

i would not go into a chest thumping thread in the trans zone and be squicked or criticize. There are such threads. i don't read them. i personally have no problem with their being there.

But let's say there was a lot chest thumping all over the place -- by whatever gender. That would alter my experience of the site. i would be less interested in it. Unless i am acquainted with the chest thumper, that stuff is sometimes triggering to me.

i don't want to experience that OR make the other person feel bad.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by adorable

What is it about being a man that makes people so uncomfortable? Why do we feel compelled as a community to silence that? In the gay male community it doesn't seem to be that way from what I've seen online and in real time.

Largely it's the sexism that is inherent in the construction of the identity. That has been a large part of the construction of masculinity in this culture. Most of my roommates have been gay men, and i have heard more cock jokes and seen more cock than i would like. Not offended. Their masculinity was constructed and evolved in THEIR adolescence, which is long past. To the extent that it was constructed in opposition to femininity, as a repudiation of it, that work been done. i know there is sexism in the gay community, but i don't FEEL it because it's mostly between them.

And in our community, even when a particular expression of maleness may NOT be sexist or misogynistic, it may resemble expressions that were, ones that i as a woman have experienced as damaging. So much depends on intent, and how are we to know that if we don't know the person.

i am not interested in it. If the person is a friend, if i know him well, if i KNOW the particular meanings that are part of HIS being and experience, then it does not resonate. It does not remind. It IS a celebration.

Otherwise, it's something i do not have to endure anymore. i work with adolescent boys. i like them. Most of my friends are straight men. i like men.

i have talked to friends through transition, friends who celebrated every change, every body alteration. i was happy for them. But, again, they were friends. i knew the meaning for them.

i am not interested in hearing the kind of pseudo-adolescent celebration of personal maleness or masculinity that sometimes goes on. i do not find it fun or amusing or endearing UNLESS it's a friend.

And in a stranger, certain expressions can resonate as aggressive, offensive, and demeaning to women. i have lived my LIFE making myself free from that.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Martina

Largely it's the sexism that is inherent in the construction of the identity. That has been a large part of the construction of masculinity in this culture. Most of my roommates have been gay men, and i have heard more cock jokes and seen more cock than i would like. Not offended. Their masculinity was constructed and evolved in THEIR adolescence, which is long past. To the extent that it was constructed in opposition to femininity, as a repudiation of it, that work been done. i know there is sexism in the gay community, but i don't FEEL it because it's mostly between them.

And in our community, even when a particular expression of maleness may NOT be sexist or misogynistic, it may resemble expressions that were, ones that i as a woman have experienced as damaging. So much depends on intent, and how are we to know that if we don't know the person.

i am not interested in it. If the person is a friend, if i know him well, if i KNOW the particular meanings that are part of HIS being and experience, then it does not resonate. It does not remind. It IS a celebration.

Otherwise, it's something i do not have to endure anymore. i work with adolescent boys. i like them. Most of my friends are straight men. i like men.

i have talked to friends through transition, friends who celebrated every change, every body alteration. i was happy for them. But, again, they were friends. i knew the meaning for them.

i am not interested in hearing the kind of pseudo-adolescent celebration of personal maleness or masculinity that sometimes goes on. i do not find it fun or amusing or endearing UNLESS it's a friend.

And in a stranger, certain expressions can resonate as aggressive, offensive, and demeaning to women. i have lived my LIFE making myself free from that.

Again, thank you for explaining this. I understand what you're saying.

I wonder if there is a difference when female ID'd butches do the same thing? I have seen that in real time. (And I know exactly what you mean about the adolecent celebration - I find that annoying too.)

I also wonder if that is what celebration is really about? Hopefully someone can describe it better then I, as a woman, ever could.

For me I see differences in gender. I don't see them as bad or good, just that they are. They are generalizations that apply to men and women. Not ALL men and women, but the majority - which is why the generalizations exist.

Maybe the emasculation of Trans, male IDs, TGs and FTMs comes from that sense of having been wronged by a male dominated society in general? (sorry, I am thinking and typing at the same time so it may not make sense outside of my head.) I know that I was personally harmed by cis men. Badly. Beaten, raped, abused, kept from being promoted, ect. Yet, I don't hold those who were born in the wrong body responsible for what happened to me. Friend or not. I don't see them differently because of my personal experience with cis men. In fact I don't hold cis men in general responsible for what happened to me by other cis men.

Can trans/male IDs/TGs/FTMs be feminists? Is that at all apart of what sometimes happens with embracing maleness within our community? The expectation seems to be that in order to be a feminist one has to BE a woman, or happy about the fact that they were born a woman. Are feminist and Trans incongruant? Can women in our community tolerate trans/male IDs/TGs/FTMs only on the periphery? Is there a sense that being trans/male IDs/TGs/FTMs is a choice that people make thereby chosing to align with the "other" or "opposing" team?

I don't really have the answers to these questions, but if I were sitting in a room with all of you I would be interested in having a discussion about all of these things. I do think about it often. And I know we see it play out right in front of us.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by adorable

I love the honesty in this statement. And to me this is what the thread is about. Why can men not celebrate being men? What is it that squicks you?

I bet a ton of money (ok, well really $5) that there are lots of TGs, male IDs, Trans, FTMs watching this conversation and wanting to say something but they just don't dare. I hope that will change.

I can actually appreciate and respect what Martina is saying. I think she and a whole lot of other people see the b/f sites as *primarily* (not *soley*, but primarily) spaces for queer and/or lesbian females. I also hear her saying that she gets there is room here for "celebrations of men-being-men" and that she just doesn't want to join in those celebrations.

I can respect that.

In my experiences, men pretty much celebrate being men in a vast majority of spaces in all of the world. A lesbian ID'd female (woman?) doesn't necessarily want to come to a queer site with a focus on queer/lesbian females and sit right in the middle of it there too.

I'm grateful there *is* room here for all of us. It doesn't offend me that some members choose to steer clear of the trans zone (or whatever). It's nice to have the choice, I think.

Respectfully,
Thinker

[Martina]

i just wanted to quote this because i really appreciated it. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Thinker

I can actually appreciate and respect what Martina is saying. I think she and a whole lot of other people see the b/f sites as *primarily* (not *soley*, but primarily) spaces for queer and/or lesbian females. I also hear her saying that she gets there is room here for "celebrations of men-being-men" and that she just doesn't want to join in those celebrations.

I can respect that.

In my experiences, men pretty much celebrate being men in a vast majority of spaces in all of the world. A lesbian ID'd female (woman?) doesn't necessarily want to come to a queer site with a focus on queer/lesbian females and sit right in the middle of it there too.

I'm grateful there *is* room here for all of us. It doesn't offend me that some members choose to steer clear of the trans zone (or whatever). It's nice to have the choice, I think.

Respectfully,
Thinker

[adorable]

Originally Posted by apretty

butchfemmeplanet.com ?

And?

Originally Posted by Dylan

Mahhh Bad

I apologize for the mis-identifying

That'll teach me to assume (for now)


Dylan

Thanks for the apology.
No problem for realz....