A request

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I am only speaking to the issue of mixing up sex with gender...assuming that a female (sex) butch also identifies as a woman (gender).

Over the years, many butches have indicated that they do not view themselves as women.

Make sense?

Ummm....no. And let me preface this by saying I'm still in my self-proclaimed "newly hatched" stage with little experience, and also that I've had a really, really, really tough couple of days.... so it may make perfect sense to everyone else here and I'm just not understanding. But I'm trying to.... so any enlightenment would be most appreciated.

Here's where I get hung up. I get that female is sex/anatomical. I get that woman is gender...which is more of an internalized perception of who I am.

I get that there are butches who claim male gender or ID.

Where I'm stuck is trying to wrap my head around how someone can be a female-ID'ed butch and not view themselves as a woman.

For the record, I adore a magnificent butch woman...so I'm not slinging off at anyone. I'm just confused as all get out...

[Beau]

Originally Posted by BullDog

As far as it being nice having female and woman separated, I'm glad it was nice for you. Having women erased is not nice to me and that's what I see a lot of. Like it's the most demeaning thing in the world to be a woman. People are apologizing for using the word woman. You will never hear me apologize for using the word woman. I think woman needs to be talked about more and given more visibility in online butch femme communities, not less.

It's not nice. It's not necessary to demean anyone.

Originally Posted by JustBeingMe

I know for some it's a huge difference to ID as woman but not female, which even confuses me a tad bit. All the lingo has changed so much sometimes I can't even keep up with it.

It's difficult to follow how gender IDs morph and the individual meanings given these identifications. I can't keep up either, so I try to be respectful of all and never assume. That's all we can do.

Originally Posted by BullDog

I repeat, I think there needs to be more- much more- discussion and visibility of women in online butch femme circles, not less- particularly when it pertains to butches (since there are so many misconceptions) but to femmes (since being women contributes to their invisibility within queer circles, even butch femme circles) as well.

I just wanted to repeat this because I believe Dapper's recent perceptions may have stemmed from other discussions where the attempt has been made to give butch women more visibility and voice. Other than that, I truly have not seen any shift toward the assumption that butch = woman. Also, femme invisibility is rarely given the discussion it deserves, and I think your point here is valid. Thanks for putting it in this context.

Originally Posted by Kobi

Interesting discussion. As a woman who entered the community shortly after the last supper, much has changed. We didnt distinguish between sex and gender back then. We were concerned with being seen as women period.

All these different id's are difficult and complicated and confusing. And, it is not something I deal with in my everyday life. So, when here, it is kind of frustrating to try to remember who is who and who prefers what. Sometimes, for me, being here is like being in a foreign country, with a foreign language and foreign customs.

I bussed the tables at the last supper, so I feel your confusion with the changes you see here online.

For the record, and I don't believe I'm alone in this, I'm still concerned with being seen and respected as a woman, period. I had to reign myself in when I read Dapper's opening post because I'm so very tired of all of the gender identity parsing of butch, but then I realized I wasn't being fair to those who don't feel acknowledged -- for whatever reason. See, this isn't a foreign country with its own language and customs, it's a world we build for ourselves on here. And that changes daily. Scary, but true.

So, Dapper, I will do my absolute best to only use "woman" as it pertains to butch as gender and not sex. For me, it's one and the same, but for some that is not true. I don't have to understand it to give those who feel differently the respect I wish to have afforded myself.

[Heart]

I may be asking JustJo's question slightly differently: What is it, for a female-identified butch, that is uncomfortable/inappropriate about being called a woman? In other words, what does "woman" MEAN that you do not wish to be identified with/as?

This is not meant to be snarky or to put a microscope on anyone. I just wonder if the definition of "woman" gets so stereotyped and rigid that even those who are female can't identify with it. And not just butches. There are femmes who do not identify with the word either.

Perhaps I will start yet another thread: What does WOMAN mean?

Full disclosure: For me, having female-identified people reject the identity of woman feels like a loss. And I mean that in a political/historical/emotional/social/cultural context.

Heart

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Beau

For the record, and I don't believe I'm alone in this, I'm still concerned with being seen and respected as a woman, period. I had to reign myself in when I read Dapper's opening post because I'm so very tired of all of the gender identity parsing of butch, but then I realized I wasn't being fair to those who don't feel acknowledged -- for whatever reason. See, this isn't a foreign country with its own language and customs, it's a world we build for ourselves on here. And that changes daily. Scary, but true.
So, Dapper, I will do my absolute best to only use "woman" as it pertains to butch as gender and not sex. For me, it's one and the same, but for some that is not true. I don't have to understand it to give those who feel differently the respect I wish to have afforded myself.

I have to admit that sometimes I just feel confused/frustrated/tired when it comes to all the labels and identities. OF COURSE, I respect everyone and their choice of label and identity... I do. And I do love to read/learn/process/discuss it. I love the debate. And I want folks to feel respected and called their chosen name (his/him/hys/hym/hyr/her/hir...)

AND

Sometimes for me I get to this place in my head where I think, in the straight world, we get so labeled and stereotyped...do we really want to continue down that path in the Queer world? Are we just separating more?

AND

Then I think, well people are going to label us anyway (human nature?), outside and inside the community, so might as well pick something you like!

[adorable]

Here is what I have learned:

Some people see Butch as their gender in the same way that some people see Femme as their gender.

[Waldo]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

I do love to read/learn/process/discuss

I can vouch for that.

My read? It's complicated.

Let's not assume what people are talking about. Let's inquire. "when you say X do you mean Y?" goes a long way toward more understanding on both sides of a discussion. Unless someone is being clearly dismissive and down right ignorant when using labels I choose to believe they mean well and they have a different take on the issue than I do.

Me? I am a woman. I don't separate woman from female. I know others do. Cool. Respected. I'm not attempting to disrespect when I say something about butch women. I'm just lucky to get pronouns right these days. Don't ask me to keep track of whether you separate gender for sex and what you refer to your naughty bits as. Please and thank you.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Waldo

Let's not assume what people are talking about. Let's inquire. "when you say X do you mean Y?" goes a long way toward more understanding on both sides of a discussion. Unless someone is being clearly dismissive and down right ignorant when using labels I choose to believe they mean well and they have a different take on the issue than I do.

YES. This. I believe that if we could routinely do this: "I choose to believe they mean well and they have a different take on the issue than I do." then the conflicts would stop.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by Waldo

I can vouch for that.

My read? It's complicated.

Let's not assume what people are talking about. Let's inquire. "when you say X do you mean Y?" goes a long way toward more understanding on both sides of a discussion. Unless someone is being clearly dismissive and down right ignorant when using labels I choose to believe they mean well and they have a different take on the issue than I do.

Me? I am a woman. I don't separate woman from female. I know others do. Cool. Respected. I'm not attempting to disrespect when I say something about butch women. I'm just lucky to get pronouns right these days. Don't ask me to keep track of whether you separate gender for sex and what you refer to your naughty bits as. Please and thank you.

I think there is an expectation that we do "keep track". I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but there have been comments in other threads about people not using the right pronoun and it is perceived as being disrespectful because one cannot remember which the person prefers.

[ruthie14]

Can't say I'm not confused....but I'm trying. If I ever make the mistake, please gently tell me. I respect everyone here and I wouldn't want to offend anyone. I'll continue to read and learn. Thanks Dapper

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by ruthie14

Can't say I'm not confused....but I'm trying. If I ever make the mistake, please gently tell me. I respect everyone here and I wouldn't want to offend anyone. I'll continue to read and learn. Thanks Dapper

No worries, Ruthie.