The Female Male ID "Wars"... or Great Divide

[Kobi]

[I'll address this from my place as an Admin on this site.

When I built the structure of these forums, I made a Butch Zone, a Femme Zone, and a Trans Zone because those are *gender* categories that this site focuses on.

What you are suggesting about "lesbians cant have a freakin' category" is not really on par with the idea that the *gender zones* are a "category".

"Lesbian" is implied in the way that we say this is a "Queer" site, meaning ALL identities be they Lesbian/Gay/Queer/etc.


Edited to add: The last sentence BECAUSE we have Lesbian Butches, Lesbian Femmes, and Lesbian Transfolks. BECAUSE we ahve GAY Butches, GAY Femmes, GAY Transfolks. BECAUSE we have Queer Butches, Queer Femmes, Queer Transfolks.[/QUOTE]

Thank you explaining this but I still dont get it. This approach is all new to me, I dont know the vernacular and what it means. I have been out of the loop for 20 years. Someone says third gender and Im like there is a third gender?

And Im not trying to be a bitch, Im trying to understand something and everytime I think I got a piece of it, I realize I dont.

When you say butch, femme, and trans are the gender categories that this focuses on and the rest of us are lumped into queer....I have a problem with that. You can categorize your site anyway you want lol, Im just trying to put the pieces together so I understand what ya'll are talking about. I dont know if I fit here. Im trying to figure that out.

The larger community everyone seems to point to is the GLBTIQ one. So gay men, lesbians, bisexuals, trans, I dont know what I is and Queer. I dont see femme or butch here. I do see lesbian and trans.

Femmes are a gender? Butches are a gender? And lesbians are what? Other? Miscellaneous?

It is your site, you can define it anyway you like. But to me, to say butch, femme, trans are the genders we deal with and the rest of you are a fruit salad seems sexist and misogynistic and misandriatic (I think thats right), and homophobic to me. It doesnt feel like those of us in the fruit salad are seen on an equal par with the rest of the identities that we are supposed to respect, accept, tolerate, and maybe honor.

And if you wished to cater to butch-femme-trans genders why not call it that? I would not have joined that cuz Im not a butch-femme-trans.

On the one hand, I hear we need to be excepting of all id's, male, female, butch, femme, male id, female id etc but we decided to categorize you so you cant easily self identify even tho we want you to but it doesnt fit the plan so dont ask questions cuz it doesnt make sense but that the way it is.

Again, I am trying to understand something that is not making sense to me. This is not computing and maybe it wasnt meant. Maybe I just dont belong here. Cuz no one is gonna tell me I, as a lesbian, must fit myself into preconceived notions. That is homophobic.

[Gayla]

Originally Posted by Kobi

And if you wished to cater to butch-femme-trans genders why not call it that? I would not have joined that cuz Im not a butch-femme-trans.
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I've read your various replies a couple of times and there is quite a bit that I don't understand. I picked this quote because it confuses me the most.

Please don't take this as me trying to silence you or tell you that you don't belong here because both would be wrong. This is simply me questioning for clarification.

The name of the site makes it pretty clear what it's all about. If you are not any of things the site caters to, then why join the site?

If I pulled this out of context or just completely read it wrong, please let me know!

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Thank you explaining this but I still dont get it. This approach is all new to me, I dont know the vernacular and what it means. I have been out of the loop for 20 years. Someone says third gender and Im like there is a third gender?

And Im not trying to be a bitch, Im trying to understand something and everytime I think I got a piece of it, I realize I dont.

When you say butch, femme, and trans are the gender categories that this focuses on and the rest of us are lumped into queer....I have a problem with that. You can categorize your site anyway you want lol, Im just trying to put the pieces together so I understand what ya'll are talking about. I dont know if I fit here. Im trying to figure that out.

The larger community everyone seems to point to is the GLBTIQ one. So gay men, lesbians, bisexuals, trans, I dont know what I is and Queer. I dont see femme or butch here. I do see lesbian and trans.

Femmes are a gender? Butches are a gender? And lesbians are what? Other? Miscellaneous?

It is your site, you can define it anyway you like. But to me, to say butch, femme, trans are the genders we deal with and the rest of you are a fruit salad seems sexist and misogynistic and misandriatic (I think thats right), and homophobic to me. It doesnt feel like those of us in the fruit salad are seen on an equal par with the rest of the identities that we are supposed to respect, accept, tolerate, and maybe honor.

And if you wished to cater to butch-femme-trans genders why not call it that? I would not have joined that cuz Im not a butch-femme-trans.

On the one hand, I hear we need to be excepting of all id's, male, female, butch, femme, male id, female id etc but we decided to categorize you so you cant easily self identify even tho we want you to but it doesnt fit the plan so dont ask questions cuz it doesnt make sense but that the way it is.

Again, I am trying to understand something that is not making sense to me. This is not computing and maybe it wasnt meant. Maybe I just dont belong here. Cuz no one is gonna tell me I, as a lesbian, must fit myself into preconceived notions. That is homophobic.
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I will be 58yrs old the end of June. I feel you on this. About 10 years ago (after my 16 yr marriage broke up) I entered the butch/femme community again.........online at the dash site. I have always been butch and always been woman and always been a lesbian/dyke.

Frankly I was horrified and baffled and not understanding what had happened to 'my community'.....Male pronouns as default for butches....transmen who identified as straight.....butches who id'd as male....the list goes on.

It was a struggle at first. I had to learn new things. The first being gender as something other than biological sex of female and male.

I got my ass chewed up and spit out more times than I can count. I stuck it out and listened and learned. It was damn hard to open my mind and understand a new way of talking about butch/femme.

One thing I did find to be crucially important. In this new world there seemed to be this sense of butch=man. I wanted young butches coming out to know they could still be a woman and be butch. It was ok and they are not less than. There was a time on the dash site when I was the ONLY butch who insisted on female pronouns.

Now we have this new home on the Planet. Here things are truly different. There is a lesbian zone....it came about because it was asked for. The butch zone has room for all us butches, not just the butch brothers. There is a pronoun place in your profile so each us can use respectful pronouns. There is transparency and accountability on the part of Medusa and Jack. This Planet is growing and changing for the better. This Planet is growing and changing for the better.

Kobi my sister....read with an open mind. I know the knee jerk reactions you are having. I had them and once in a while still have them. What I have learned and gained from listening and learning is a broader community and a greater sense of understanding of my fellow queers. My butch brothers have as much right to be here as my butch sisters. Transmen and Transwomen belong here. They do not dilute my community, they enrich it.

The presence of a broad spectrum of gender identity gives folks coming out a place where they can grow and learn about who they might be. It was a struggle to understand this and I still have trouble on occasion.

Feel free to PM me at anytime and I am glad to talk to you about this. Like I said........I feel ya........I've been there.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants? Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them? Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there? Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community. What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own? Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home? Why mess up a good thing?

That right there, to me personally, hurt my feelings. A lot.

So because I'm not a lesbian you do not want to have to share a website with me? I am not welcome in your space?

A little backhistory on me. I have been with women for 13 years now. I am turning 33 in a couple of weeks. The first three years I was with women - I was ONLY with women. I called myself a lesbian. I wasn't. Know why I said I was something I wasn't? Because it was made -very- clear to me that who/what I actually am is distasteful. Bad. Pandering to male desires.

I like to use the word Queer to describe who I am. It's my identity. But if we want to get super-technical...when it boils down to it I -am- bi/pansexual.

After 3 years of being out I had to come out again as what I really am - and I lost a tonne of friends. I'm sure I don't have to tell you how I was SHIT ON by lesbians because I happened to start dating someone who happened to have a penis.

Since I was 20 I've dated a lot of people. Mostly not serious (cuz that's what dating is) sometimes it was just sex (because women like to fuck, too) and some times it has been serious. Absolutely, in the last 13 years I've been with more women than I have been with men - but (aside from the fact that I'm married and monogamous) men are not ruled out for me by virtue of their being men. I am attracted to a person for their manner of being, the interests we share, and sometimes their shoes or haircut - FIRST. Their sex or identity comes second. And because their sex or identity comes second...even among the females I have been with, there is no real trend. I've been with all sorts. (Except for Femmes, I've never been with one. Although there was a time when I was so in love with my BFF who was Femme that I cried when she left a party with some dumb slutty Butch who fucked every single thing in a skirt in the city of Toronto - there's no way I'm ever gonna tell HER that, though.)

I'm a minority within a minority within a minority. If I'm not welcome HERE then, jesus, where am I welcome?

Right. So when you start talking about a Lesbian-only website - you start talking about the sort of website where I would not be welcome. You start talking about the sort of website that would completely alienate me because my fluidity makes the members of said website SO SUPER UNCOMFORTABLE. You start talking about the sort of website that, frankly, I would want no part of - since I know I don't belong there.

Have you not made any meaningful connections/friendships with people from this site who are not lesbians? Haven't you? Not even one? Think hard - I bet you have. And would you be willing to give up any non-lesbian friends you've made in favour of having a website where you would never have to associate with anybody who is different from you?

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants?
Because we ARE a mixed group of participants and that makes us awesome.

Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them?
Those sites exist. That SPACE, however, ALSO exists on this site and that also makes us awesome.

Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there?
This website IS a home that honors those identities and yours. Because so many Transpeople have roots in Butch/Femme culture, they have a home here. Not a tolerated home, a home. No qualifier. Full stop.


Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community.
And you have that here if you choose to embrace it. There are a LOT of people who identify as "Lesbian" on this site...that includes a few Transpeople who identify as a Lesbian. Are you shocked? Or did you think that only women born women identify as Lesbians?
When you say you fought to be a Lesbian, did you mean that you fought for women-only space? When you said that you wanted a Lesbian community, did you mean a "women only" community?

What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own?
They have and they do. Right here. That doesnt make us a "Trans" website or a "Male" website, it means we are an inclusive website and that makes us awesome.


Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home?
I think I read you saying that Trans people and Male -identified people are just here to "get some pussy".
If that is indeed what you are saying, it's problematic on a couple of levels. First off, it implies that Transpeople or Male-identified people are vultures coming to pick the bones of the hoards of willing pussies clean. Not. So. Much.
Secondly, it implies that we Femmes are so automated, so "Stepford Pussied" that we cant discern for ourselves what we are attracted to.
There are a lot of very attractive Transmen and Male-identified people up in this space. When I was single, I didn't run right out and get me one of those fancy Trans models or play "Penelope Peril" on the railroad tracks of "prey" and "predator" simply because Thinker or Linus or Dylan EXISTED. Why? Because my desires arent that shallow.

Why mess up a good thing?

What's the "good thing" Kobi? A community without any sort of male-identified or Male presence at all? Im trying to understand the last part?

[/QUOTE]


Kobi,

My responses in red.

Thanks.

And just to be clear, Im not irritated or angry in this post. Not at all. Im just conversational and want to understand where you are coming from.

[Kobi]

Kobi,

My responses in red.

Thanks.

And just to be clear, Im not irritated or angry in this post. Not at all. Im just conversational and want to understand where you are coming from.[/QUOTE]

Medusa,

I appreciate you time and energy. I will try and help you understand where I am coming from but need to warn you at the moment I dont know if I am on foot or horseback.

And I want to reiterate, I am not dissing, dismissing or bashing anyones identity or right to be here. I am trying to understand where visible female id'd butches fit in this mix, if they fit in this mix.

And I apologize if I inadvertently offend someone. Im not trying to do so. Im trying to get my head around something that does not fit with my experiences.

I can understand mixed group and how that can be awesome. I dont understand how you can say this is a home for my identity if I had to ask where my zone was, cuz your choices for me didnt fit my identity. The mere fact I had to ask should have been the first clue.

I understand how trans folk have their roots in the butch-femme community. Not quite THAT dense. LOL.

I do not see a lot of visible lesbians here. Perhaps they choose go in areas or participate in threads I dont read.

I dont know what a transperson identifying as lesbian means. Does this mean biological males trans to females?

When I say I fought to be a lesbian I mean I am from the time when gay/trans folks were not as free as they are today to express their identities, nor did they have the concepts/fluidity to developed these or pursue them with as great a regularity as now.

And I mean when lesbian referred to women having the right to be visible in loving other women. It was a time when lesbian presupposed a gender of female. I never remember a gender issue except when it came to a male patriarchy and how it affects women and women as lesbians.

And it meant a space where women developed themselves as women and as lesbians within a male oriented, patriarchal society.

I think to reduce it to a lesbian thing only without addressing the male/female thing is a mistake. People can easily call me a misantrophe. But until you walked in my shoes, had my experiences and understand where my mistrust of male comes from, you have no right to judge me. I have a real hard time embracing that which continues to oppress me. Does that mean I dont think some of the males/male id's are not ok people? Of course not. Does that mean some impress me as priveleged, macho shitheads.....yeah.
I think it is great that I can say yea, I have a mistrust of things male and I have a dang good reason for it.

When I hear some male acknowledgement of this built in problem in our society and how it can impact on communities like this, I am willing to listen. When I get dismissed by females or males because they are not aware of or willing to admit this exists, I have a problem with it.

If this helps and it wont cuz my examples never do, my brother is gay. When I asked him and his partner about these issues and got passed the boy you women sure like to make things difficult comment.....it was very clear to me, from their perspective that trans/male id means nothing to them. At the moment, they see a mtf as a female, they see a ftm as a female. Neither is a threat because they arent real males. Not a representative sampling but an illustration of the thinking of the patriarchy.

I am not going to even address the transmen here for p***. That is incredible sexist to both male and female to objectify one for the mere purpose of a sex act. I am not trans so I was not aware there were trans communities.

What's the "good thing" Kobi? A community without any sort of male-identified or Male presence at all? Im trying to understand the last part?

Wow how to answer that one. I am a lesbian. I am a woman id lesbian. My world is women and lesbians. I live in a partiarchial world where I have to deal with male stuff every day. I like my female place and the energy it has and the energy it gives me. Is this an outdated concept? Is that wrong?
Are gay men flocking to spend time with me cuz I am a woman? Naw. Do I want to spend my free time with them.....depends who they are but not a lot of time. Do I perpetuate a separatist ideology....no....male kids have great toys and trucks and sports stuff and I like playing with them. Its the bigger ones who have this image and expectation of me as a woman and them as the ones in charge that bug me.

Try this on....if someone told you that we had to deconstruct femme because it is sexist and separatist and we must find a male counterpart to it and integrate it into our community would that detract from being a femme?

Anyone have any prevacid?








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[Medusa]

Responding in a darker red this time

Originally Posted by Kobi

Kobi,

My responses in red.

Thanks.

And just to be clear, Im not irritated or angry in this post. Not at all. Im just conversational and want to understand where you are coming from.

Medusa,

I appreciate you time and energy. I will try and help you understand where I am coming from but need to warn you at the moment I dont know if I am on foot or horseback.

And I want to reiterate, I am not dissing, dismissing or bashing anyones identity or right to be here. I am trying to understand where visible female id'd butches fit in this mix, if they fit in this mix.

And I apologize if I inadvertently offend someone. Im not trying to do so. Im trying to get my head around something that does not fit with my experiences.

I can understand mixed group and how that can be awesome. I dont understand how you can say this is a home for my identity if I had to ask where my zone was, cuz your choices for me didnt fit my identity. The mere fact I had to ask should have been the first clue.

I see what you are saying but I didnt understand why you asked where your zone was when I feel like this entire website is a zone for lesbians. This is a Queer website encompassing all of the spectrum and ways of being Queer. Lesbian fits there with equal and accessible space.
I think where you and I are misunderstanding each other is that I personally do not define "Lesbian" as a gender identity. I *do* define Butch and Femme as a gender identity. Hence, the Zones for each *gender* identity to commune with one another.
If you identify as a Butch Lesbian or a Femme Lesbian, one of those Zones should work for you. See what I'm saying?


I understand how trans folk have their roots in the butch-femme community. Not quite THAT dense. LOL.

I do not see a lot of visible lesbians here. Perhaps they choose go in areas or participate in threads I dont read.

Oooh, look harder! There are a lot of Lesbian-identified Butches and Femmes here. I do think that a lot of people on this site define "Lesbian" as a political identity and not a gender identity. Not all, mind you, but at least several people that I have talked to and seen write about it at length. If you want to see visible Lesbians, look at anything that I write, or anything that anyone else who identifies in any way as a Lesbian writes.
I don't necessarily identify as a Lesbian first or even in the same way as you; it's not my gender identity but I do embrace some of the politics that make up "Lesbian" as I see it.


I dont know what a transperson identifying as lesbian means. Does this mean biological males trans to females?

It can but it can also mean that a Female who has transitioned to Male who is now known as a Transman has chosen to hang on to their identity as a Lesbian.


And I mean when lesbian referred to women having the right to be visible in loving other women. It was a time when lesbian presupposed a gender of female. I never remember a gender issue except when it came to a male patriarchy and how it affects women and women as lesbians.

I think that in most cases, "Lesbian" still does presuppose a gender of female.

And it meant a space where women developed themselves as women and as lesbians within a male oriented, patriarchal society.

That happens here. Women develop themselves as women. Women develop themselves as Butches, Femmes, and sometimes Trans people.

I have a real hard time embracing that which continues to oppress me. Does that mean I dont think some of the males/male id's are not ok people? Of course not. Does that mean some impress me as priveleged, macho shitheads.....yeah.
I think it is great that I can say yea, I have a mistrust of things male and I have a dang good reason for it.

This might be the root of it. The mistrust of "all things male" can and does translate into a mistrust of all things Trans and all things male-identified. It summarily categorizes as "male" people who are often NOT summarily male and who most definitely do not have a summarily male experience.


Wow how to answer that one. I am a lesbian. I am a woman id lesbian. My world is women and lesbians. I live in a partiarchial world where I have to deal with male stuff every day. I like my female place and the energy it has and the energy it gives me. Is this an outdated concept? Is that wrong?

It's not outdated or wrong and you aren't alone. A great many of us on this website like our female places and revel in female energy.

Try this on....if someone told you that we had to deconstruct femme because it is sexist and separatist and we must find a male counterpart to it and integrate it into our community would that detract from being a femme?

I don't think it would detract from Femme. At least not mine. I don't see how identifying as Femme could ever be sexist since it is the very heart of embracing the feminine and Queering it up in fucking amazing ways. If someone asked me to find a male counterpart to it, I would be at a loss since Femme doesn't need anything male to exist. It's a standalone identity. Even if it fucks other women. Even if it fucks men.


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[Kobi]

QUOTE=Medusa;116167]Responding in a darker red this time



Medusa,


[
I can understand mixed group and how that can be awesome. I dont understand how you can say this is a home for my identity if I had to ask where my zone was, cuz your choices for me didnt fit my identity. The mere fact I had to ask should have been the first clue.

I see what you are saying but I didnt understand why you asked where your zone was when I feel like this entire website is a zone for lesbians. This is a Queer website encompassing all of the spectrum and ways of being Queer. Lesbian fits there with equal and accessible space.


I think where you and I are misunderstanding each other is that I personally do not define "Lesbian" as a gender identity. I *do* define Butch and Femme as a gender identity. Hence, the Zones for each *gender* identity to commune with one another.
If you identify as a Butch Lesbian or a Femme Lesbian, one of those Zones should work for you. See what I'm saying?
I see exactly what you are saying. You are saying I must fit my identity into what you predetermined were my choices based on your perception of what my choices should be. After all, a butch is a butch is a butch. That is sexist, homophobic and misandriatic.


I do not see a lot of visible lesbians here. Perhaps they choose go in areas or participate in threads I dont read.

Oooh, look harder! There are a lot of Lesbian-identified Butches and Femmes here. I do think that a lot of people on this site define "Lesbian" as a political identity and not a gender identity. Not all, mind you, but at least several people that I have talked to and seen write about it at length. If you want to see visible Lesbians, look at anything that I write, or anything that anyone else who identifies in any way as a Lesbian writes.
I don't necessarily identify as a Lesbian first or even in the same way as you; it's not my gender identity but I do embrace some of the politics that make up "Lesbian" as I see it.

I dont see many visible lesbians. I will look harder but I see a reluctance of lesbians to come forth.
I dont know what a transperson identifying as lesbian means. Does this mean biological males trans to females?

It can but it can also mean that a Female who has transitioned to Male who is now known as a Transman has chosen to hang on to their identity as a Lesbian.
A transman who transition only to retain his identity as a lesbian? Doesnt that defeat the purpose of transitioning?

And I mean when lesbian referred to women having the right to be visible in loving other women. It was a time when lesbian presupposed a gender of female. I never remember a gender issue except when it came to a male patriarchy and how it affects women and women as lesbians.

I think that in most cases, "Lesbian" still does presuppose a gender of female. If in most cases, lesbian still presupposes a gender of female, why are you trying to tell me to fit myself into a femme, butch or trans or queer gender? That doesnt make sense.

And it meant a space where women developed themselves as women and as lesbians within a male oriented, patriarchal society.

That happens here. Women develop themselves as women. Women develop themselves as Butches, Femmes, and sometimes Trans people.
Agreed, all persons at any given time are works in progress.

I have a real hard time embracing that which continues to oppress me. Does that mean I dont think some of the males/male id's are not ok people? Of course not. Does that mean some impress me as priveleged, macho shitheads.....yeah.
I think it is great that I can say yea, I have a mistrust of things male and I have a dang good reason for it.

This might be the root of it. The mistrust of "all things male" can and does translate into a mistrust of all things Trans and all things male-identified. It summarily categorizes as "male" people who are often NOT summarily male and who most definitely do not have a summarily male experience.

You misunderstood me. I am not addressing the experience a male summarily might have or not. I am addressing how male privelege, whether is is appreciated or not, is a given. Sexism and misogyny can not be ignored whether it comes from a male perspective or a female perspective.
[

Try this on....if someone told you that we had to deconstruct femme because it is sexist and separatist and we must find a male counterpart to it and integrate it into our community would that detract from being a femme?

I don't think it would detract from Femme. At least not mine. I don't see how identifying as Femme could ever be sexist since it is the very heart of embracing the feminine and Queering it up in fucking amazing ways. If someone asked me to find a male counterpart to it, I would be at a loss since Femme doesn't need anything male to exist. It's a standalone identity. Even if it fucks other women. Even if it fucks men.

You misunderstood. I said we deconstruct femme. Femme doesnt exist anymore. There is no femme as the very heart of feminine. Gone. Poof. Doesnt exist.
We need to reconceptualize the entire thing and add a masculine/male component in order to recognize your male counterpart. It is no longer the heart of feminine, it is a merge of female/male. YOU as a gender cease to exist, replaced with something more acceptable to a broader group of ids.

Femme doesnt need anything male to exist? And here I thought someone might see me as a separatist. But lesbian needs something male to exist?Whats good for the goose is good for the gander yes?
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[Daryn]

ugh.. edited because of accidentally duplication ... next post is it

[Daryn]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Kobi,

My responses in red.

Thanks.

And just to be clear, Im not irritated or angry in this post. Not at all. Im just conversational and want to understand where you are coming from.

Medusa, my dear, you (and Jack) are wonderful..... and thanks for your commitment to inclusivity.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Sometimes, one has to be brutally honest and let the chips fall where they may. I am tired and weary from trying to be nice and respectful and accomodating and seeing things from others perspective. Im tired of being made to feel like I need to compromise for the sake of harmony and solidarity.



-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

YES. OMG YES. I am a female id butch lesbian and it pisses me off to be lumped into a butch category with people who do not id as a female butch lesbian. I like female/femme/woman energy. That is what makes me who I am.

A male butch or male id butch is who they are. No harm, no foul. But the two are not synonymous.

I come on this site and I see all the male id/energy categories in the forums. Within that category I see pages of threads and I say ok cool. I see the femme categories and within those categories I see pages of threads....ok cool. But where is the lesbian stuff? I see a butch category with pages of threads...I dont see anything specific to lesbians. There one 1 ONE UNO lesbian thread located in the gender category? What lesbians cant even have a freakin category? How long has this site been running?

I find it odd that to feel the female/woman/female energy that is who I am, I have to go peek in the femme zone cuz thats where the most visible aspect of who I am is. I feel comfortable there with female energy.

It pisses me off that the butch zone feels very male/masculine energy laden, that it makes me feel uncomfortable, that it make me feel like an outsider, that it makes me feel like a second class citizen.

There is a HUGE difference between female butch energy and male/male masculine energy. When someone tells me their brain is wired like a male, warning bells go off for me. Its called male privelege, male posturing, male stuff. It's not who I am or what I am about.

It pisses me off that my long hard fought id as a female id butch lesbian has to be compromised for the sake of male id/male anything. I fought NOT to be seen as a woman who wanted to be a man and here I am lumped in with the very thing I have fought for decades not to be seen as.

This does not mean I begrudge males /or male id's. I dont. Just as I do not begrudge bi's or gay men or anyone else. Feel free to be whatever and whomever you are. But where do I belong? Where are the lesbians who want the butch-femme dynamic in their lives?

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants? Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them? Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there? Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community. What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own? Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home? Why mess up a good thing?



-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

I am more at war with myself than I am with any particular group. I see the lesbian identity I love being thrown under the bus.

I am told that we as butches need to deconstruct our identities and reformulate them. There is nothing wrong with my lesbian butch identity. It is not damaged, it is not broken, it is not in need of repair. It does not need to be reformulated so I can be lumped in with male id anything. I am not a male id'd anything. I am a proud freakin dyke butch! And no task force should be telling me or anyone else how we id. Deal with the bigger issues related to the rights of alternative lifestyles not my identity.

I see a proliferation of youth running to become trans of one sought or another. Why are we seeing such huge growth in the nimbers of people who are the wrong gender? Does anyone besides me question why this is happening?

I seen a lot of misogyny and sexism in my day to day life. I see it here. It bothers me. Put a group of female energy together, it is one thing....add male energy to it, it becomes another. Check the studies on all female schools and how female excel academically in an all female environment. Put them in a mixed sex environment, it drops.

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

Masculine id's do not have to have an agenda to attack anyone. There is a presumed privelege in our culture for all things male. They dont have to attack....women hand it to them on a silver platter.

I dont know if it is true, but some male id here put in one of these threads that the TOS says we are to respect, tolerate, accept, and honor. I tolerate things I dont understand or agree with. I accept things that make sense to me. I respect people not groups of ids. And even heterowomen knew enough to take honor out of the wedding vows. Honor is a male concept short for kiss my kiss. Not gonna happen.

Lastly, it is appalling how many of our female youth have no clue to the history of female life in the world. They take much for granted, much that those of my generation fought for so they could just assume it was always this way.

It is appalling how how backwards women have allowed themselves to slide and sadder that we dont even realize we are doing it.

We shouldnt not be diminishing the female butch lesbian id as I see happening on this site in order to bolster another group. And I am pissed at myself for vascilating between standing up for my people and buying into the need to find a compromise so everyone is happy.

If we really want to deal with the issues, we are going to have to put up with the anger, and all the rest of the emotions that are going to go along with it. It is bigger than gender id.

[/QUOTE]

Kobi
I don't agree with a damn thing that you said.
I think your wrong, and not just a little wrong.
Other people have already said what I was thinking.
I also want to thank you for having the guts to say it.
I for one appreciate the honesty.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants? Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them? Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there? Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community. What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own? Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home? Why mess up a good thing?

When I first discovered an online butch/femme community, I felt like I had finally found my people. Being relatively isolated, it filled an emptiness I felt; yes, I had friends in my real time life, but none identified as butches and femmes, much less transgender. I was blessed to be able to socialize with an FTM on several occasions. That said, it has always been my belief, that because I once tried to be a woman, and tried to be a dyke/lesbian and led consciousness raising groups on the myriad of isms in our society, marched and fought for women's rights as well as LGBQT rights, pioneered with others to create organizations to address the isms, and the rights of women and those who fall into the category of LGBQT, that I would be welcome here. Transitioning does not erase my past, nor does it transform me into a popular cliche I have heard more than once, right here, a "knuckle dragging male."

When I was trying to be a woman, I accomplished a number of things, as "the first woman to do/be ______." I did not succeed because of male privilege, but because I refused to be told that I was limited to be who I wanted to be, or what I chose to do. I dislike tooting my own horn, but I think it is important for others here to know that I transitioned to male, not for the privilege, but because it was a matter of being true to myself.

[JustJo]

I am almost scared to come into this thread, but I am anyway (cuz that's the kind of femme I am....or, the term I prefer to embrace, the kind of pushy broad I am).

Anyway, I appreciate all of those who are being honest in here...whether I agree with them or not. I've thanked posts that I agree with, and some that I don't - because I believe that they are speaking their own truth fearlessly...and I admire that even when I don't agree.

What I'm seeing here are alot of assumptions. If someone asks for a lesbian space then they're dissing non-lesbians, if they claim an ID then they're dissing those that don't ID that way. If they are trans then they're claiming or somehow unaware of male privilege. I just don't agree. I think what Liam said here is key (and pardon me taking such a short snip Liam)

Originally Posted by Liam

I transitioned to male, not for the privilege, but because it was a matter of being true to myself.

We are all here in our own way, because it's who we are. I didn't decide to claim female or woman...it's who I am. I presume that those who claim male or queer or butch or femme or lesbian or fill in the blank are doing the same thing. And being me isn't dissing you, undermining you or taking anything from you (general you...of course).

And one tiny note...I keep hearing all of this (pardon me, but in my opinion) total crap about women being somehow less than, weaker than, or less capable than men. In my experience, not even close. In my life, the women have been stronger and more resilient. I understand that's not everyone's experience...and no, I'm not hating on men. But in my experience it's the women who stick around and do what needs to be done...even when it's damn hard to do. It's the women who have made sure that children were provided for, that friends were listened to, and that the community stayed a community. If my life exploded tomorrow, I know who I could call for help...and they were all born with vaginas.

And, yes, I'm getting cranky. Sorry.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by JustJo

If they are trans then they're claiming or somehow unaware of male privilege. I just don't agree. I think what Liam said here is key (and pardon me taking such a short snip Liam)

And one tiny note...I keep hearing all of this (pardon me, but in my opinion) total crap about women being somehow less than, weaker than, or less capable than men. In my experience, not even close. In my life, the women have been stronger and more resilient. I understand that's not everyone's experience...and no, I'm not hating on men. But in my experience it's the women who stick around and do what needs to be done...even when it's damn hard to do. It's the women who have made sure that children were provided for, that friends were listened to, and that the community stayed a community. If my life exploded tomorrow, I know who I could call for help...and they were all born with vaginas.

And, yes, I'm getting cranky. Sorry.

Hi JustJo,

Glad you dropped by.

I will try my best to answer your concerns....

1. the issue is not why did Liam personally transition to male. Of course one transitions, even I agree, to be true to who they are. Not a problem. In transitioning, certain priveleges are automatically granted to someone who is or perceived to be male. Which leads us to point 2.

2. Just because women are strong and can do it all does not mean they are not looked down upon as a gender...gender meaning perceptions in the world of male-female. The Bill of Rights for The USA.......we hold these truths to be self evident....all MEN are created equal. Not all men and women, not all people, all MEN. Does that bother you as a woman?

Does it bother you that women and children were once considered property of the men in their lives much like farm animals? Does it bother you that women have been trying to pass the equal rights amendent for 100 years without success? Does it bother you that women rushed to the factories during WW2 so men could go off and fight and when these men returned the women were expected to go back to their wifely duties because men needed the jobs? Does it bother you that women still receives less pay for doing the same job as a man? Does it both you that women still comprise the bulk of the service workers in this country and males the significantly higher professional and technical ones? Does it bother you to know women in the world are mutilated everyday (cliterectomies and such) by other women because their male dominated culture think women ...well they think many unpleasant things.


It is not about being stronger and more resilent. Even men might attest to that. It is about being seen as an equal to their male counterparts and for the male counterparts to be willing to pass laws and do away with male customs that keep women from achieving this.

Soapbox. Kobi. Down.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Hi JustJo,

Glad you dropped by.

I will try my best to answer your concerns....

1. the issue is not why did Liam personally transition to male. Of course one transitions, even I agree, to be true to who they are. Not a problem. In transitioning, certain priveleges are automatically granted to someone who is or perceived to be male. Which leads us to point 2.

2. Just because women are strong and can do it all does not mean they are not looked down upon as a gender...gender meaning perceptions in the world of male-female. The Bill of Rights for The USA.......we hold these truths to be self evident....all MEN are created equal. Not all men and women, not all people, all MEN. Does that bother you as a woman?

Does it bother you that women and children were once considered property of the men in their lives much like farm animals? Does it bother you that women have been trying to pass the equal rights amendent for 100 years without success? Does it bother you that women rushed to the factories during WW2 so men could go off and fight and when these men returned the women were expected to go back to their wifely duties because men needed the jobs? Does it bother you that women still receives less pay for doing the same job as a man? Does it both you that women still comprise the bulk of the service workers in this country and males the significantly higher professional and technical ones? Does it bother you to know women in the world are mutilated everyday (cliterectomies and such) by other women because their male dominated culture think women ...well they think many unpleasant things.


It is not about being stronger and more resilent. Even men might attest to that. It is about being seen as an equal to their male counterparts and for the male counterparts to be willing to pass laws and do away with male customs that keep women from achieving this.

Soapbox. Kobi. Down.

Hi Kobi,

I don't feel like you're on a soapbox...I feel like you're stating your mind and your heart, and I'm always in favor of that.

To the other points...yes....ALL of that bothers me. I'm 48 years old...and it frustrates me beyond all description that the ERA never passed, and everyone seems to have let it all fall by the wayside.

It bothers me that I had to go back to college for 4 years to get an MBA so that I could make the same "decent" living that a whole lot of men can make with a high school diploma.

It bothers me that while women are gaining with regard to pay equity, we are still nowhere close...and probably won't be in my working lifetime.

Lots of things bother me. Racism bothers me. Sexism bothers me. People talking to me like I'm an idiot bothers me. People who drive slow in the left lane bother me. What we're doing to our environment bothers me.

Here's the other thing though. I have to live in the world every day. If I rant at everything that bothers me every day, then I will literally die. My health can't handle that.

I value peace. I value compromise. I value getting along with others as much as possible. I value speaking my own truth and letting others speak their own too.

I don't hate men. That's an interesting position for me. I have never, in my lifetime, been able to count on a single male person for anything. I was raised by a single mother. My grandfather was a child molester that I had to defend my 4 year old cousin from when I was 16. I was gang raped at 14. I have been ripped off, lied to, molested, raped, used, belittled, humiliated, coerced and disregarded - by men.

Here's my other reality. I am the mother of a son, and I live in a world that is composed of men as well as women.

I will speak my truth, live my life and push my own agenda as far as I can, but I choose to do it without trampling over others as much as I possibly can. That doesn't mean I'm not angry. It doesn't mean I don't see injustice.

Here's what I also believe. Change ...REAL change...is slow. Very slow. That sucks, but it's reality. My son doesn't believe the crap about women being "less than" that his father and grandfather believe. In large part, that's because of who I am and how I live.

I honestly don't believe that I will see equality and the end to misogyny in my lifetime. That's a shame. However, I will do my part by living as an example of a strong, resilient, capable woman...and I will raise a son that is one step closer.

That's where I come from. It's different than where you come from, or from most (or maybe all) of the others who have posted here. I think we all have to do it in our own way. It doesn't mean that my way is more valid than yours...or vice versa.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Kobi

It pisses me off that my long hard fought id as a female id butch lesbian has to be compromised for the sake of male id/male anything. I fought NOT to be seen as a woman who wanted to be a man and here I am lumped in with the very thing I have fought for decades not to be seen as.

This does not mean I begrudge males /or male id's. I dont. Just as I do not begrudge bi's or gay men or anyone else. Feel free to be whatever and whomever you are. But where do I belong? Where are the lesbians who want the butch-femme dynamic in their lives?

I ask myself why do all these butch-femme sites pop up with such a mixed group of participants? Why not set up a site that is for transmen/male id and those who love them? Why not honor your identities with a home that puts who you are right out there? Im not dissing anyone here but when I fought to be a lesbian, I wanted a lesbian community. What arent the transmen/male id's wanting to establish a homeland of their own? Is it because they have a ready supply of potential mates in their accepting, inclusive former lesbian home? Why mess up a good thing?

Hey Kobi, I think I've had a quip on something similar with you for this before, but again...

I don't know how anyone could in compromise in any way who you are or negate you fight. I don't get that at all, it doesn't make sense. No one can compromise my identity and there's no limit on space here.

As far as where are the lesbians who want butch femme dynamic... just look around, there's tons of them here. I prefer big ol' damn dyke to the word lesbian but I have "identified" as a stone butch for the greater part of my life.

Which to me meant I didn't fit well in ALL lesbian dyke spaces (which are out there), it's not that they were all unwelcoming, but my life, my masculinity, attractions, like and dislikes were synced with others who are in the butch femme culture and those who walked in similar shoes. I find that connection with male ID, female ID and trans folks alike and for one see this as our hard fought for space.

Hell I would be bored - to - tears if we all were alike, with like mind and what-ever.

I say why not "honor your identity" that's hard fought for by being proud in it and making space for others who fight for space too? In the mean time yeah, this particular space seeks to welcoming and open place for all queer identities that feel a connect to the B-F dynamic. I see that as progress.

Metro

[Corkey]

Kobi, I'm really sorry if my gender ID triggers something for you. That said, I'm here I'm Queer and I'm not going anywhere. I belong here just as you do and as any other ID does. As far as privilege goes, I have none, not unless someone decides to give it to me, and that just doesn't happen, not in My life and not in my experience.
To whit, last night we go to our GLBT news letter folding party. We walk in the door, my wife first and I hear "OHHH here are more lesb.....fade whisper....Oh!" Yea because I am TG Male ID'd I get that disapproving look from those in our community who for fuck sake should be ally's and who judge without getting to know someone.
Then to top off the night we meet another couple who have just moved to the area, and they don't blink when the pronouns get tossed out there. They accepted me for me, because we accepted them for them. We even exchanged phone numbers and my wife felt comfortable enough to be around them, she's an introvert who has a keen sense of comfort level :i.e. drama llamas and nutzies.
So what it all boils down to is , there are asshats every where, in all shapes, sizes, and ID's. Judge not lest ye be judged!

[Kobi]

Corkey,

Thanks for responding. I dont know if you have followed the thread from where it started this morning. I just want to be clear that people understand I am not trying to diss, bash, or judge any id. I am trying to understand something that has not been in my frame of reference to see if this is a place I belong.

Sometimes it is hard to see that someone is not on the same page as another. I am trying to catch up. I try and ask questions or pose things that help me to learn something or clarify something. Maybe someone else will learn something too. I dunno. Maybe.

And I never expected you or anyone else to go anywhere. LOL. There are, I am gathering aside from many ids, many frames of reference and many ideas. Is cool. You take the hat, try it on, see if it fits.

And I wasnt trying to be offensive tho some might think I was. Sometimes it is easier to just get it out there rather than beat around the bush.

Anyway, thanks for your input and yes Linus told me about intersexed.

Originally Posted by Corkey

Kobi, I'm really sorry if my gender ID triggers something for you. That said, I'm here I'm Queer and I'm not going anywhere. I belong here just as you do and as any other ID does. As far as privilege goes, I have none, not unless someone decides to give it to me, and that just doesn't happen, not in My life and not in my experience.
To whit, last night we go to our GLBT news letter folding party. We walk in the door, my wife first and I hear "OHHH here are more lesb.....fade whisper....Oh!" Yea because I am TG Male ID'd I get that disapproving look from those in our community who for fuck sake should be ally's and who judge without getting to know someone.
Then to top off the night we meet another couple who have just moved to the area, and they don't blink when the pronouns get tossed out there. They accepted me for me, because we accepted them for them. We even exchanged phone numbers and my wife felt comfortable enough to be around them, she's an introvert who has a keen sense of comfort level :i.e. drama llamas and nutzies.
So what it all boils down to is , there are asshats every where, in all shapes, sizes, and ID's. Judge not lest ye be judged!

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Corkey,

Thanks for responding. I dont know if you have followed the thread from where it started this morning. I just want to be clear that people understand I am not trying to diss, bash, or judge any id. I am trying to understand something that has not been in my frame of reference to see if this is a place I belong.

Sometimes it is hard to see that someone is not on the same page as another. I am trying to catch up. I try and ask questions or pose things that help me to learn something or clarify something. Maybe someone else will learn something too. I dunno. Maybe.

And I never expected you or anyone else to go anywhere. LOL. There are, I am gathering aside from many ids, many frames of reference and many ideas. Is cool. You take the hat, try it on, see if it fits.

And I wasnt trying to be offensive tho some might think I was. Sometimes it is easier to just get it out there rather than beat around the bush.

Anyway, thanks for your input and yes Linus told me about intersexed.

Kobi, I don't know how to get this across to you, You belong here, just like everyone else who claims a LGBTIQ gender marker.

[Kobi]

June,

Thanks. I am feeling heard and this is good. I still dont get some stuff but thats cool too. Am trying to be open minded and absorb what I can, filter things thru my own prejudices, preferences, and beliefs.

AARP says I need to do mentality tasks to starve off dementia. Today was good for a few more years. LOL.

Originally Posted by June

Hi, Kobi --

I wanted to say this out loud to you, and to everyone who is participating so thoughtfully and being patient with each other even though this is a frustrating and very difficult topic.

I *know* you. And when I say that, I mean, I know (and love) many women like you. Women who have spent decades fighting for a place at the table, in the Boardroom, in the bedroom. Women who gave up a lot so that in my middle 30's, I could waltz out into the world as a Lesbian/Femme/Queer person and be reasonably sure I wasn't going to lose my job, my house and my child.

I want you to know, I am hearing you and seeing you hanging in there to figure this out. If you are looking for women born women only space, this will not be the place for you. If you are looking for a smart, eclectic, infuriating, fascinating online community, then yeah, welcome home.

We (many of us) do forget that it has been traditionally the Lesbians and the Feminists who took on the often thankless and more often low paid jobs in the social services arena to make the world safer and more just for other women and the children. Men have also done this work, but by and large, those cogs have been turned by women. I understand that someone entering into a community such as this could feel cast aside in some regards, but perhaps, if you can think of us as your liberated, unruly, sarcastic progeny, many of us out there doing out own form of activism based on the principles you and others laid as the foundation, it will help you to feel more at ease.

--June