The Female Male ID "Wars"... or Great Divide

[Jett]

Originally Posted by adorable

..........I talk to people from here. What people's true motives are, I don't have to guess. Pleny of people do not believe that male IDs belong here. That trans, ftms, TGs - anyone who considers themselves a man -does not belong. They WANT a woman only space. They have been fighting for the right their whole lives. Well, I have been fighting my entire life too, my feelings are just as valid and I have a say.....................

I'll admit I entirely baffled by this response adorable. I asked you a sincere question about your response and then gave my own experience that's relating to what you were talking about.

I'm sorry you feel that way and that you feel that way about me, my response to you and motives. But that's you're prerogative.

*done with my derail*
Metro

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I'll admit I entirely baffled by this response adorable. I asked you a sincere question about your response and then gave my own experience that's relating to what you were talking about.

I'm sorry you feel that way and that you feel that way about me, my response to you and motives.
Metro

ETA: I actually was going to start it and not participate at all, and just hear what people were thinking... I really don't want this thread derailed so I'm just going to leave it at that... and if you personally feel I've done something feel free to PM me.

I did see that line of questioning as being motivated. I take you at your word that you were not doing that to invalidate what I was saying. I apologize for misreading you or accusing you of something. I shouldn't have done that.

I would love to have a real discussion about what is actually going on. I have tried to so many times - I can pull those posts - and nothing...it turns into the snowball and no one feels (IMO) that they are willing to put themselves out there in a meaningful way.

So if people can just be allowed to post how they feel or what they see as they see it - imo -I hope it will work. I don't really think that overall anyone likes the great divide. In the meantime, I see that I have been "unfriended" - that speaks volumes. Have a great day.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by adorable

I did see that line of questioning as being motivated. I take you at your word that you were not doing that to invalidate what I was saying. I apologize for misreading you or accusing you of something. I shouldn't have done that.

I would love to have a real discussion about what is actually going on. I have tried to so many times - I can pull those posts - and nothing...it turns into the snowball and no one feels (IMO) that they are willing to put themselves out there in a meaningful way.

So if people can just be allowed to post how they feel or what they see as they see it - imo -I hope it will work. I don't really think that overall anyone likes the great divide. In the meantime, I see that I have been "unfriended" - that speaks volumes. Have a great day.

I just "unfriended" about 20 peeps on Facebook who've never commented, "liked" or even interacted with me in anyway on Facebook. I did the same thing about a month ago...

If you noticed you were NOT "unfriended" on this site...

But ok...
Metro

ETA: And to be very frank... until you just said that did I even put 2 and 2 together as to who you were... on my facebook and the dash site, since you've not made it known to me here on BFP at any time.

And again, I'm sorry you're reading me as you are, it only says you do not truly know me in the first place.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I just "unfriended" about 20 peeps on Facebook who've never commented, "liked" or even interacted with me in anyway on Facebook. I did the same thing about a month ago...

If you noticed you were NOT "unfriended" on this site...

But ok...
Metro

ETA: And to be very frank... until you just said that did I even put 2 and 2 together as to who you were... on my facebook and the dash site, since you've not made it known to me here.

Well that isn't true now is it? I told you who I was when I joined here and friended you.
And I told you, just like I told Dylan - it was so I could bask in the glory of Dylan repping me until he figured out who I was...lol. And that just happened recently.
I have 696 friends on FB. I don't have the time to like everyone's posts. But unfriending is called unfriending....and I sure noticed even with 696 other peeps.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by adorable

Well that isn't true now is it? I told you who I was when I joined here and friended you.
And I told you, just like I told Dylan - it was so I could bask in the glory of Dylan repping me until he figured out who I was...lol. And that just happened recently.
I have 696 friends on FB. I don't have the time to like everyone's posts. But unfriending is called unfriending....and I sure noticed even with 696 other peeps.

No, that is true, and really I know I barely knew you on the BF site. IF you did tell me then I frankly don't remember it at all.

And in either case I still didn't remove you from my friend list here and I still cut FB people who I don't interact with... and you still would have been cut like the other acquaintances that got cut.

You can think what you like, it really doesn't affect reality. People that actually do know me, here and real life are all the people are probably more in the know of how I conduct myself than you.

So it's all out there... peeps can decide who's motives are what if there into that kind of hubub... I'm all good with that.

Metro

[Hack]

I sense no animosity from any group or anyone here. I'm sorry to read that others have different experiences. One of the many things I do like about this site is that over on the left side of each post, where our avatar is, there is a line about pronoun preference. I find it nice that it is there because I feel that my preference is honored, and I can see how others prefer, so if I address them in post I know ahead of time what they want me to use.

I think that when I am out and about in the world, I am called "sir" way more than "ma'am." Even when I am addressed as "ma'am," I may slightly flinch, but I decided long ago that there are things in the world more important to fight over than whether or not the store clerk or waiter calls me sir or ma'am. I say that in no way to dismiss anyone's fight or struggle to get their i.d. out there the way they want it. I simply say that for myself I choose not to argue, as long as I am addressed politely and courteously, that is usually all that matters to me.

What it comes down to is I have a very firm grip on who I am. I know that how I i.d. is entirely up to me to define, and not others. I am very comfortable in my skin. I wasn't always, but as I age, perhaps I am mellowing. Who knows?

Jake

[BullDog]

Well, as far as I am concerned the most relevant post in the whole damn thread is Heart's. I guess it's ok for people to spout Facebook conspiracy theories, but not bring up misogyny and sexism- which is the heart of the matter.

Misogyny and sexism concerns everyone, so why are people telling Heart not to post here?


Yes there are individuals who don't like each other, yes there are people who are rude, yes some of the same things get said over and over. That's the small tiny stuff people want to talk about instead of the underlying issues.

Talking about sexism and misogyny does not equal anti-trans or anti-male.

If anyone has issues with me or what I said or where I said it, please tell me directly instead of cryptic talk. You can send it to me privately so as not to derail if that's the issue.

[Gayla]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well, as far as I am concerned the most relevant post in the whole damn thread is Heart's. I guess it's ok for people to spout Facebook conspiracy theories, but not bring up misogyny and sexism- which is the heart of the matter.

Misogyny and sexism concerns everyone, so why are people telling Heart not to post here?


Yes there are individuals who don't like each other, yes there are people who are rude, yes some of the same things get said over and over. That's the small tiny stuff people want to talk about instead of the underlying issues.

Talking about sexism and misogyny does not equal anti-trans or anti-male.

If anyone has issues with me or what I said or where I said it, please tell me directly instead of cryptic talk. You can send it to me privately so as not to derail if that's the issue.

Here is me telling you directly as you've requested.

Do you have any idea how dismissive this is?

The conversation has gone in many different directions. There was some weird Facebook thing that happened at the start, that I believe was some public thing about a private matter, that was between two people and has been done for a page a half.

Since then, it's been, imo, a good discussion about many different points. Most everyone has posted about their own experiences. Most everyone has posted about the questions Met asked. Most everyone has contributed something on some level.

Some issues may be small, some may be big, some may be seen as either/or by those reading but they were obviously big enough in the mind of the poster to write them on the Internet for all to see. Some sparked discussion. Some didn't. Either way, people are talking openly about an issue that I've seen you reference numerous times here.

Then you feel the need to come in and tell us we're doing it wrong. Really, truly, honestly, from my gayla place, why?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well, as far as I am concerned the most relevant post in the whole damn thread is Heart's. I guess it's ok for people to spout Facebook conspiracy theories, but not bring up misogyny and sexism- which is the heart of the matter.

Misogyny and sexism concerns everyone, so why are people telling Heart not to post here?


Yes there are individuals who don't like each other, yes there are people who are rude, yes some of the same things get said over and over. That's the small tiny stuff people want to talk about instead of the underlying issues.

Talking about sexism and misogyny does not equal anti-trans or anti-male.

If anyone has issues with me or what I said or where I said it, please tell me directly instead of cryptic talk. You can send it to me privately so as not to derail if that's the issue.

M'kay so no one told Heart not to post here..

What was requested and I am OK with this since I did it.. I requested what was said in a femme thread stay there and not be paraded around for butch validation. She don't have to listen I ain't her momma. and well I am perfectly ok with the decision to ask her not to. Hope that clarifies.

I have to go now and start the day

Peace

[Heart]

I did not post in this thread for butch validation.

I brought Medusa's question about sexism and misogyny into this thread because Met did not ask that question in her original post and I think it's a crucial question in any discussion about so-called gender wars or male/female divides here.

That may have been presumptuous and intrusive and single-minded of me, but it was not about getting any kind of butch validation.

I am sorry my cross-posting over-stepped, but the last thing I need for any post I ever make is butch validation.

Heart

[Stoney]

Okay here are my questions....

why in the hell does this have to be a war? why is is that people can have any " right or wrong" way to define or identify themselves??? how could I just say" Oh Im a dyke and some one else says well , excuse me you might say you are a dyke but you are really a queer in "my" opinion... you Identify as a man... but "you are wrong because I think you are more like a female. You say you are a butch but You cant be because you shave your arm pits..yada yada.

.I mean who GIVES A FUCK ?

and like wise... How am I gonna get pissed off because someone thinks Im a dyke but not a queer? or thinks Im not as butch as they think I should be etc..
AGAIN..who gives a fuck?

I mean I am lesbian and butch and yeah sometimes people think I am a man, I get called sir more often than not. what am I gonna do punch people in the face cause they made and honest mistake?.....hell I wouldnt punch them in the face for saying it for any reason... I am me. I dress like me, I act like me. Everyone sees me through their own eyes , not mine.They dont know really where I have been, what my life means to me and for the most part most people dont care bout that either.
If a comment is made it is for their own entertainment if it is derogatory , out of ignorance if ... well it is just plain ignorant ...but most are simply mistakes.

I cut my hair short , I buy my clothes from the mens section.. people are gonna assume thinks about me .quick glance, yes, I fit a stereotype one I am well aware of... duh.....I dressed myself today. It is human nature to assume.

Those things used to bother me, what people thought, how I would fit in ,measure up...
.then I really thought..measure up to what? another's opinion of the person i am and how I should be this way or that to fit the impression they have of me??

the person you are is you,the life you are creating belongs to you,the one most important thing that can never be stolen, altered, felt or experienced by any other human being but ourselves is what we believe about and embrace within ourselves and claim to be our truth.

Stand firm in who you are , but be understanding to those who haven't walked in your shoes What they think of you , what they project has reason, whether it is insulting, stereotyping, or just plain asinine; there is a lesson for you, compassion and understanding can go a long long way, remember.. they are trying to create themselves too

As for in places like this.

I have had even the sweetest words misinterpreted when i have posted. I have been attacked and insulted and my feelings got hurt then I got jumped on over having feelings and then an attack on my sexuality

and I have to admit and Im embarrassed to say It fucked with me. I mean I truly let the words of people online fuck with my life.
I thought about the stuff they said and I picked myself apart over it. rehashed the words and intentions in my head ( I mean not obsessively or anything but now and then when I missed going to the site) I didnt return for over a year. Then had a lower profile. didnt say much, just read posts until I seen so much of the same happening to other people like me who innocently insulted someone and then got emotionally beat down and run off for it. And I stopped candy coating what I had to say. I mean I feel I am a pretty emotionally stable happy person who visits this site and what about some of the folks that come in here and make mistakes , words said , oversensitive responses and projection can be damaging and hurtful, and face it some people who come to sites like this it is their only sense of family, sometimes it is all they have , maybe they have mental problems, are depressed, their dog just got run over , who knows... the point is...I know how it affected me and I rather like myself, what about those that do not? so I started saying what I want.

I had already decided that I wouldnt let things said on line bother me anymore and I honestly have plenty of life out here to life without entertaining insults and arguements who either have no right to form an opinion on " my Feelings" ( which happens alot it seems in posts)and then insult me or I accidently offend, leave out, misunderstand,only include"whatever", point to, reference to what the fuck ever I it is I do wrong and it is back on again......

It is like an online soap turning into Jerry springer ... my two least favorite shows next to Rush Lumbaugh. No thanks

This is supposed to be a place for friends, we are all here because we have some of the same issues, we are here to support and help each other. we are here to learn about ourselves and the people we love and or support. We have so much in common but it seems even in this community all people can do is point out and debate each others differences. why separate? why judge, why stereotype, isnt that what we are trying to escape?.
Separation provokes fear, and judgment and both of those lead to hate.

Whether you are a femme who has kids but is now with a butch , if you were born male but live as a female, if you are in love with a man who was born a woman, if you are a feminist tree huggin peace and love lesbian or the two 75yr old gym teachers who have shared a home for over 40 yrs... some one hates you.
people hate us in this world okay.. I mean it is a fact.

People die because they are some sort of " Queer" every single day...

that is fucked up enough isnt it?


why do we have to divide, separate, ride around on our own high horses spouting off what it means to be queer when we really only have the knowlege of one thing and that is what kind of queer we are.

And if any one is offended over me calling us , this community queers than I just have to say..

you didn't understand a thing I said and whether you did or not,, your too damn sensitive and I ain't into arguing about it..

seriously though.....This post was not intended to piss anyone off
If It does.............

......shrug, you dont know me, you took it wrong and I dont care.

Much peace everyone!!
I deeply and truly mean that!!
Stoney





And just plain stupid assholes.......fuck em ... who cares what they think... I aint wasting one minute explaining myself or validating, or defending anything to them