The Female Male ID "Wars"... or Great Divide

[Jett]

I feel absolutely no animosity toward butches of any ID. I feel like all masculine ID's here, female ID, male ID, butch woman, TG, etc all have the right to be exactly who they want without being questioned about it... just as I do.

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? My questions are:

-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

Serious sometimes I feel stupid because I'm not seeing it, and I'm not feeling invisible to, attacked or dismissed by any other group of masculine ID folks.

Thanks,
Metro

[Jett]

That said as I requested to hear from butches first because I find it's better straight from the horses mouth than an observers perception, personal lens or spin on what is in the minds of butches in this context.

Sometimes I think the prob is some folks think there's a huge war and so just fly with that as to everybody's motives... I find this just adds to the problem of many butches of all ID's not being heard.

Thanks again,

Metro

[adorable]

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? I do hope that this community is about inclusiviness.

-My question is, as a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs? As a woman I feel animosity towards me depending on what I say or how I feel or who I am. It goes further for me depending who I am partnered with. I am seen differently by some based on that, not all within a group. The problem I find is not in my personal ID which I purposely keep outta here as much as possible -having learned my lesson well - but in how others relate to my ID so personally.

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID? Currently I am backing the right for insides to be recognized. I have insides and they matter to me. I have been laughed at for my insides. I have had bad things said to me, been ripped apart and ridiculed for who I am regardless of how that person who did it ID'd. I see this fight as a greater reflection of the discrimination that goes on within a minority community. It baffles me. I believe in strength in numbers and everyone celebrating who they are INSIDE. It's a rainbow thing.

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having and agenda to attack another group? The agenda that I see is to be included in all the reindeer games. For space, being recognized for who they are and a sense of community like everyone else and not seen as the enemy because they consider themselves NOT to be women.

That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

There are two main protagonists in this story. Neither one hears the other and when it starts - sigh - I personally know where it's going. Never anywhere fun either like St. Thomas....

Now, seperating out that thing they do - I think that there is in fact a war going on and one that isn't said in the open forum. Instead people call it something else in an effort to silence each other.

I talk to people from here. What people's true motives are, I don't have to guess. Pleny of people do not believe that male IDs belong here. That trans, ftms, TGs - anyone who considers themselves a man -does not belong. They WANT a woman only space. They have been fighting for the right their whole lives. Well, I have been fighting my entire life too, my feelings are just as valid and I have a say.

One thing I say is it's wrong to classify those who don't ID the way you do as somehow enemy friendly. Or decide who gets a pass because they embrace womanhood enough to now be a man...wtf? I don't think that people should have to pretend to be something they are not to participate and get respect.

I will fight for male IDs to be here until I get told that this isn't the place for them. I felt this way on the dash site and I feel this way here - there is strength in numbers. We all need each other, no matter how badly we like to think we don't. When they come for us - they are coming for US ALL. They aren't going to ask how the fuck we ID first.

No one holds some magic key that determines what butch and femme is - no one - but people sure act like they do. I know queers who have lost queer friends because of who they to partner with. This is a serious issue, imo for us individually and as a community.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I feel absolutely no animosity toward butches of any ID. I feel like all masculine ID's here, female ID, male ID, butch woman, TG, etc all have the right to be exactly who they want without being questioned about it... just as I do.

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? My questions are:

-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

No


-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

No

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

No

That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

Serious sometimes I feel stupid because I'm not seeing it, and I'm not feeling invisible to, attacked or dismissed by any other group of masculine ID folks.

Thanks,
Metro

When I do speak up as a butch woman there seems to be some hostility from a few and a general uneasiness amongst more than a few. That is how it seems to me. It does not come from one specific gender identity.

[JustBeingMe]

When I have spoken up, there does seem to be animosity tossed at me and I have felt silenced. I have often seen it happen to others and it's not just from one particular ID either. It's just too damn sad it happens. I hate infighting and I think it's just fucked up it happens. I tend not to engage in it anymore, it's pointless because no one can hear you but your own damn ears.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by adorable

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? I do hope that this community is about inclusiviness.

-My question is, as a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs? As a woman I feel animosity towards me depending on what I say or how I feel or who I am. It goes further for me depending who I am partnered with. I am seen differently by some based on that, not all within a group. The problem I find is not in my personal ID which I purposely keep outta here as much as possible -having learned my lesson well - but in how others relate to my ID so personally.

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID? Currently I am backing the right for insides to be recognized. I have insides and they matter to me. I have been laughed at for my insides. I have had bad things said to me, been ripped apart and ridiculed for who I am regardless of how that person who did it ID'd. I see this fight as a greater reflection of the discrimination that goes on within a minority community. It baffles me. I believe in strength in numbers and everyone celebrating who they are INSIDE. It's a rainbow thing.

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having and agenda to attack another group? The agenda that I see is to be included in all the reindeer games. For space, being recognized for who they are and a sense of community like everyone else and not seen as the enemy because they consider themselves NOT to be women.

That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

There are two main protagonists in this story. Neither one hears the other and when it starts - sigh - I personally know where it's going. Never anywhere fun either like St. Thomas....

Now, seperating out that thing they do - I think that there is in fact a war going on and one that isn't said in the open forum. Instead people call it something else in an effort to silence each other.

I talk to people from here. What people's true motives are, I don't have to guess. Pleny of people do not believe that male IDs belong here. That trans, ftms, TGs - anyone who considers themselves a man -does not belong. They WANT a woman only space. They have been fighting for the right their whole lives. Well, I have been fighting my entire life too, my feelings are just as valid and I have a say.

One thing I say is it's wrong to classify those who don't ID the way you do as somehow enemy friendly. Or decide who gets a pass because they embrace womanhood enough to now be a man...wtf? I don't think that people should have to pretend to be something they are not to participate and get respect.

I will fight for male IDs to be here until I get told that this isn't the place for them. I felt this way on the dash site and I feel this way here - there is strength in numbers. We all need each other, no matter how badly we like to think we don't. When they come for us - they are coming for US ALL. They aren't going to ask how the fuck we ID first.

No one holds some magic key that determines what butch and femme is - no one - but people sure act like they do. I know queers who have lost queer friends because of who they to partner with. This is a serious issue, imo for us individually and as a community.

So female ID and woman ID butches are confiding in you off site that male ID aren't welcome here?

I know many many female ID and woman ID butches real life for decades and on this site... I can say with 100% certainty none have ever expressed this to me, nor have we ever even spoken about male ID's.

But then I don't know who you know I'm sure or if there even on this site...

What I'm really interested if there's some BFP war going on, not necessarily what a person (or couple peeps) off site said.

Can you perhaps point out something on this website (quotes what ever) that directly indicate someone has said this? Because I think that would need to be dealt with on an individual basis (and moderated) and doesn't have a lot to do with how the majority in any group of masculine ID's here on BFP feel.

ETA: Actually even further I've never talked outside of this site with butches about female ID or what-ever...

[Corkey]

[QUOTE=Metropolis;115382]I feel absolutely no animosity toward butches of any ID. I feel like all masculine ID's here, female ID, male ID, butch woman, TG, etc all have the right to be exactly who they want without being questioned about it... just as I do.

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? My questions are:

-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs?

No

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID?

No

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

No

That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

Serious sometimes I feel stupid because I'm not seeing it, and I'm not feeling invisible to, attacked or dismissed by any other group of masculine ID folks.

Thanks,
Metro

I don't see the attacks, I don't get them personally, I used to on another site, but not here, which is one reason I am here. Thing is the same folks who used to be at the other site are here as well, so something has changed. I think that Jack and Medusa have made it clear that attacking folks for who they are is not acceptable, and I for one welcome that. Met, you have always had my back, and been a supporter of me, and I appreciate you for this. I just don't understand the whole "war" concept, and if folks can't accept each other for who they are, then what kind of community can there be.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by BullDog

When I do speak up as a butch woman there seems to be some hostility from a few and a general uneasiness amongst more than a few. That is how it seems to me. It does not come from one specific gender identity.

Originally Posted by JustBeingMe

When I have spoken up, there does seem to be animosity tossed at me and I have felt silenced. I have often seen it happen to others and it's not just from one particular ID either. It's just too damn sad it happens. I hate infighting and I think it's just fucked up it happens. I tend not to engage in it anymore, it's pointless because no one can hear you but your own damn ears.

When you do feel dissed does it seem to be coming from an entire group, one particular ID... or is it like the mostly individuals from scattered ID's?

Bull I guess you already answered that.

I guess my main thing is I feel like entire groups are being thrown under the bus for the sins of a few. Instead of addressing the offensive posts, or individuals by quoting and responding to them directly... it's being blamed on the entirety of the ID.

Maybe we could heat things up a lot less if we addressed people instead of entire groups on that.

We are all people here, all different upbringings, cultures and history and my ID doesn't define my heart, soul or beliefs...

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by BullDog

When I do speak up as a butch woman there seems to be some hostility from a few and a general uneasiness amongst more than a few. That is how it seems to me. It does not come from one specific gender identity.

I'm going to be honest with you, and you can take it however you're going to take it.

I have seen you (and others - but since I'm responding to you I'm going to talk about you) go into threads that are not about being a woman...and start talking about being a woman. TO ME it feels...weird*. And other people -have- said to me that they feel like you (and the other people who do this) are doing it to silence them.

I have no problem with you talking about being a woman. I have no problem with you talking about misogyny you have experienced or seen other people experience. But I really think you would be better heard if you would pick your platforms more wisely.

I get that there is a subtext wherein Butch Women and/or Female Butches were shit on at the "other" site. But can we maybe start fresh and not always behave as though we are waiting for that to happen?

EDIT - I figured out what phrase I was looking for above when I said "weird". The phrase was "right message, wrong place".

[SuperFemme]

Here is one: http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...67&postcount=5

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

When you do feel dissed does it seem to be coming from an entire group, one particular ID... or is it like the mostly individuals from scattered ID's?

Bull I guess you already answered that.

I guess my main thing is I feel like entire groups are being thrown under the bus for the sins of a few. Instead of addressing the offensive posts, or individuals by quoting and responding to them directly... it's being blamed on the entirety of the ID.

Maybe we could heat things up a lot less if we addressed people instead of entire groups on that.

We are all people here, all different upbringings, cultures and history and my ID doesn't define my heart, soul or beliefs...

Yes, I agree Metro. I have tried to address things directly with individuals when it was things they said specifically that I found problematic. Unfortunately after awhile that begins to appear as an ongoing personal grudge if certain individuals continue to do that. I do believe in being direct and it also can be hard to let things slide when you find them problematic. I am not sure what the answer is. I'm just going to try disengaging more and just being parts of conversations that interest me.

I do not attack male ids. I do strongly speak out against male defaults. To me there is a huge difference between the two.

[MrSunshine]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I feel absolutely no animosity toward butches of any ID. I feel like all masculine ID's here, female ID, male ID, butch woman, TG, etc all have the right to be exactly who they want without being questioned about it... just as I do.

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? My questions are:

-As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs? No, not at all.

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID? no, not this either.

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group? No, I do see people attacking other people. It does seem to happen more in threads of this nature but I always think/feel it has more to do with what people are passionate about than how they ID. I know for me there are times I want to participate on/in certain topics but don't because of the fallout that follows sometimes when "I" open my mouth (laptop). I feel for the most part that it is usually a misunderstanding of words though. I myself don't take it personal unless of course it is MADE personal.

That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

Serious sometimes I feel stupid because I'm not seeing it, and I'm not feeling invisible to, attacked or dismissed by any other group of masculine ID folks.

Thanks,
Metro

Thanks for asking these questions Metro. Interesting thoughts.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I'm going to be honest with you, and you can take it however you're going to take it.

I have seen you (and others - but since I'm responding to you I'm going to talk about you) go into threads that are not about being a woman...and start talking about being a woman. TO ME it feels...weird. And other people -have- said to me that they feel like you (and the other people who do this) are doing it to silence them.

I have no problem with you talking about being a woman. I have no problem with you talking about misogyny you have experienced or seen other people experience. But I really think you would be better heard if you would pick your platforms more wisely.

I get that there is a subtext wherein Butch Women and/or Female Butches were shit on at the "other" site. But can we maybe start fresh and not always behave as though we are waiting for that to happen?

Betenoire, I appreciate you being direct with me, but I am a woman so why would it feel weird to hear me talking about being a woman? Perhaps there is a specific example you can give me where that felt strange.

I think this site has given us a fresh start to a certain degree, but the old attitudes seem to still be there. However, I do sense, overall, more general goodwill to trying to be more respectful to each other as well.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

So female ID and woman ID butches are confiding in you off site that male ID aren't welcome here?

I know many many female ID and woman ID butches real life for decades and on this site... I can say with 100% certainty none have ever expressed this to me, nor have we ever even spoken about male ID's.

But then I don't know who you know I'm sure or if there even on this site...

What I'm really interested if there's some BFP war going on, not necessarily what a person (or couple peeps) off site said.

Can you perhaps point out something on this website (quotes what ever) that directly indicate someone has said this? Because I think that would need to be dealt with on an individual basis (and moderated) and doesn't have a lot to do with how the majority in any group of masculine ID's here on BFP feel.

ETA: Actually even further I've never talked outside of this site with butches about female ID or what-ever...

Oh, I'm really sorry. I thought you were asking me questions that you wanted me to answer about how I felt from my perspective. Obviously, you know the people on this site and they haven't said that to you. Soooooo......
A couple of peeps off site? hmmm. Well you can characterize it how you want, it's your thread and you know everyone...and apparently are listening in on my phone calls - odd. But ok.
In fact I specifically said in my post - is it still my post? - IS that I sensed that that what was going on and that people were saying one thing and calling it another. That is what I said, speficially they are not spelling it out that way in the threads. I base that on people whom I have talked to in real time and IM and on the phone - people who I do know AND AND consider to be my friends - cuz I can be friends with people who disagree with me I'm friendly in that way - who have told me HOW THEY FELT about male IDs being on this site. How many people does that have to be to justify the existance of a undercurrent to YOU?
Now I fell all bad because I thought that you - YOU METRO - actually started this thread to actually see what people were thinking about this. NICE TRAP. I didn't see that one coming and I mean it - as someone who considers you a friend.
I will step out of here now and let you all get to discussing how you (the collective you - of which I don't belong to) agree with each other, how you are right and no one else has a perspective unless it fits in yours.
Thanks.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by adorable

..........I talk to people from here. What people's true motives are, I don't have to guess. Pleny of people do not believe that male IDs belong here. That trans, ftms, TGs - anyone who considers themselves a man -does not belong. They WANT a woman only space. They have been fighting for the right their whole lives. Well, I have been fighting my entire life too, my feelings are just as valid and I have a say.....................

I'll admit I entirely baffled by this response adorable. I asked you a sincere question about your response and then gave my own experience that's relating to what you were talking about.

I'm sorry you feel that way and that you feel that way about me, my response to you and motives. But that's you're prerogative.

*done with my derail*
Metro

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire

I'm going to be honest with you, and you can take it however you're going to take it.

I have seen you (and others - but since I'm responding to you I'm going to talk about you) go into threads that are not about being a woman...and start talking about being a woman. TO ME it feels...weird*. And other people -have- said to me that they feel like you (and the other people who do this) are doing it to silence them.

I have no problem with you talking about being a woman. I have no problem with you talking about misogyny you have experienced or seen other people experience. But I really think you would be better heard if you would pick your platforms more wisely.

I get that there is a subtext wherein Butch Women and/or Female Butches were shit on at the "other" site. But can we maybe start fresh and not always behave as though we are waiting for that to happen?

EDIT - I figured out what phrase I was looking for above when I said "weird". The phrase was "right message, wrong place".

OK just read your edited version. I am not to talk about being a woman in certain places. I should just keep that to myself. Should femmes keep it to themselves that they are women, should transmen keep it to themselves that they are men?

I have been politely, and in some cases not so politely, been told to "tone" it down. Don't talk about being a woman so much, or qualify it so that everyone is certain that not all butches are women. I've never heard anyone tell a femme not to talk about being a woman.

My question to the general audience is why does it make you so uncomfortable for butches to talk about being a woman?

If you happen to find it "off topic" in the future, perhaps you (the general you) can address it then.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I'll admit I entirely baffled by this response adorable. I asked you a sincere question about your response and then gave my own experience that's relating to what you were talking about.

I'm sorry you feel that way and that you feel that way about me, my response to you and motives.
Metro

ETA: I actually was going to start it and not participate at all, and just hear what people were thinking... I really don't want this thread derailed so I'm just going to leave it at that... and if you personally feel I've done something feel free to PM me.

I did see that line of questioning as being motivated. I take you at your word that you were not doing that to invalidate what I was saying. I apologize for misreading you or accusing you of something. I shouldn't have done that.

I would love to have a real discussion about what is actually going on. I have tried to so many times - I can pull those posts - and nothing...it turns into the snowball and no one feels (IMO) that they are willing to put themselves out there in a meaningful way.

So if people can just be allowed to post how they feel or what they see as they see it - imo -I hope it will work. I don't really think that overall anyone likes the great divide. In the meantime, I see that I have been "unfriended" - that speaks volumes. Have a great day.

[JustBeingMe]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

When you do feel dissed does it seem to be coming from an entire group, one particular ID... or is it like the mostly individuals from scattered ID's?

Bull I guess you already answered that.

I guess my main thing is I feel like entire groups are being thrown under the bus for the sins of a few. Instead of addressing the offensive posts, or individuals by quoting and responding to them directly... it's being blamed on the entirety of the ID.

Maybe we could heat things up a lot less if we addressed people instead of entire groups on that.

We are all people here, all different upbringings, cultures and history and my ID doesn't define my heart, soul or beliefs...

It mostly has come from ID's online that were not woman or female, and a few femmes. In real life it has come from femmes and from male ID'd butches. I sometimes think it was an intolerance issue for my ID, I honestly don't know the truth behind it because I refused to engage it because it's BS to me.
It's also BS to me to do any sort of Posturing between different ID's.

[JustBeingMe]

Betenoire, just for the record, there are other ID"s that have gone into threads that didn't ID as woman or female and started a rant on their own ID blah blah blah. It's not just this site. I have seen it many many many times on the dash site, where someone starts a Woman thread and someone else comes in and starts off ranting in a thread where it's not addressing their ID and hell begins on the internet.
Bully knows this first hand as well as I too.

ETA: Hell it has happened in butch bonding threads for all butches to come into and bond together. Just sayin......it happens all over the threads. Do I see it stopping? Hell no. I don't. I wish it would but it's not going to.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by adorable

I did see that line of questioning as being motivated. I take you at your word that you were not doing that to invalidate what I was saying. I apologize for misreading you or accusing you of something. I shouldn't have done that.

I would love to have a real discussion about what is actually going on. I have tried to so many times - I can pull those posts - and nothing...it turns into the snowball and no one feels (IMO) that they are willing to put themselves out there in a meaningful way.

So if people can just be allowed to post how they feel or what they see as they see it - imo -I hope it will work. I don't really think that overall anyone likes the great divide. In the meantime, I see that I have been "unfriended" - that speaks volumes. Have a great day.

I just "unfriended" about 20 peeps on Facebook who've never commented, "liked" or even interacted with me in anyway on Facebook. I did the same thing about a month ago...

If you noticed you were NOT "unfriended" on this site...

But ok...
Metro

ETA: And to be very frank... until you just said that did I even put 2 and 2 together as to who you were... on my facebook and the dash site, since you've not made it known to me here on BFP at any time.

And again, I'm sorry you're reading me as you are, it only says you do not truly know me in the first place.