The Female Male ID "Wars"... or Great Divide

[adorable]

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? I do hope that this community is about inclusiviness.

-My question is, as a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs? As a woman I feel animosity towards me depending on what I say or how I feel or who I am. It goes further for me depending who I am partnered with. I am seen differently by some based on that, not all within a group. The problem I find is not in my personal ID which I purposely keep outta here as much as possible -having learned my lesson well - but in how others relate to my ID so personally.

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID? Currently I am backing the right for insides to be recognized. I have insides and they matter to me. I have been laughed at for my insides. I have had bad things said to me, been ripped apart and ridiculed for who I am regardless of how that person who did it ID'd. I see this fight as a greater reflection of the discrimination that goes on within a minority community. It baffles me. I believe in strength in numbers and everyone celebrating who they are INSIDE. It's a rainbow thing.

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having and agenda to attack another group? The agenda that I see is to be included in all the reindeer games. For space, being recognized for who they are and a sense of community like everyone else and not seen as the enemy because they consider themselves NOT to be women.

That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

There are two main protagonists in this story. Neither one hears the other and when it starts - sigh - I personally know where it's going. Never anywhere fun either like St. Thomas....

Now, seperating out that thing they do - I think that there is in fact a war going on and one that isn't said in the open forum. Instead people call it something else in an effort to silence each other.

I talk to people from here. What people's true motives are, I don't have to guess. Pleny of people do not believe that male IDs belong here. That trans, ftms, TGs - anyone who considers themselves a man -does not belong. They WANT a woman only space. They have been fighting for the right their whole lives. Well, I have been fighting my entire life too, my feelings are just as valid and I have a say.

One thing I say is it's wrong to classify those who don't ID the way you do as somehow enemy friendly. Or decide who gets a pass because they embrace womanhood enough to now be a man...wtf? I don't think that people should have to pretend to be something they are not to participate and get respect.

I will fight for male IDs to be here until I get told that this isn't the place for them. I felt this way on the dash site and I feel this way here - there is strength in numbers. We all need each other, no matter how badly we like to think we don't. When they come for us - they are coming for US ALL. They aren't going to ask how the fuck we ID first.

No one holds some magic key that determines what butch and femme is - no one - but people sure act like they do. I know queers who have lost queer friends because of who they to partner with. This is a serious issue, imo for us individually and as a community.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by adorable

If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? I do hope that this community is about inclusiviness.

-My question is, as a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs? As a woman I feel animosity towards me depending on what I say or how I feel or who I am. It goes further for me depending who I am partnered with. I am seen differently by some based on that, not all within a group. The problem I find is not in my personal ID which I purposely keep outta here as much as possible -having learned my lesson well - but in how others relate to my ID so personally.

-Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID? Currently I am backing the right for insides to be recognized. I have insides and they matter to me. I have been laughed at for my insides. I have had bad things said to me, been ripped apart and ridiculed for who I am regardless of how that person who did it ID'd. I see this fight as a greater reflection of the discrimination that goes on within a minority community. It baffles me. I believe in strength in numbers and everyone celebrating who they are INSIDE. It's a rainbow thing.

-Do you see any group of masculine ID's having and agenda to attack another group? The agenda that I see is to be included in all the reindeer games. For space, being recognized for who they are and a sense of community like everyone else and not seen as the enemy because they consider themselves NOT to be women.

That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question.

That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"?

There are two main protagonists in this story. Neither one hears the other and when it starts - sigh - I personally know where it's going. Never anywhere fun either like St. Thomas....

Now, seperating out that thing they do - I think that there is in fact a war going on and one that isn't said in the open forum. Instead people call it something else in an effort to silence each other.

I talk to people from here. What people's true motives are, I don't have to guess. Pleny of people do not believe that male IDs belong here. That trans, ftms, TGs - anyone who considers themselves a man -does not belong. They WANT a woman only space. They have been fighting for the right their whole lives. Well, I have been fighting my entire life too, my feelings are just as valid and I have a say.

One thing I say is it's wrong to classify those who don't ID the way you do as somehow enemy friendly. Or decide who gets a pass because they embrace womanhood enough to now be a man...wtf? I don't think that people should have to pretend to be something they are not to participate and get respect.

I will fight for male IDs to be here until I get told that this isn't the place for them. I felt this way on the dash site and I feel this way here - there is strength in numbers. We all need each other, no matter how badly we like to think we don't. When they come for us - they are coming for US ALL. They aren't going to ask how the fuck we ID first.

No one holds some magic key that determines what butch and femme is - no one - but people sure act like they do. I know queers who have lost queer friends because of who they to partner with. This is a serious issue, imo for us individually and as a community.

So female ID and woman ID butches are confiding in you off site that male ID aren't welcome here?

I know many many female ID and woman ID butches real life for decades and on this site... I can say with 100% certainty none have ever expressed this to me, nor have we ever even spoken about male ID's.

But then I don't know who you know I'm sure or if there even on this site...

What I'm really interested if there's some BFP war going on, not necessarily what a person (or couple peeps) off site said.

Can you perhaps point out something on this website (quotes what ever) that directly indicate someone has said this? Because I think that would need to be dealt with on an individual basis (and moderated) and doesn't have a lot to do with how the majority in any group of masculine ID's here on BFP feel.

ETA: Actually even further I've never talked outside of this site with butches about female ID or what-ever...

[SuperFemme]

Here is one: http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/foru...67&postcount=5

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

So female ID and woman ID butches are confiding in you off site that male ID aren't welcome here?

I know many many female ID and woman ID butches real life for decades and on this site... I can say with 100% certainty none have ever expressed this to me, nor have we ever even spoken about male ID's.

But then I don't know who you know I'm sure or if there even on this site...

What I'm really interested if there's some BFP war going on, not necessarily what a person (or couple peeps) off site said.

Can you perhaps point out something on this website (quotes what ever) that directly indicate someone has said this? Because I think that would need to be dealt with on an individual basis (and moderated) and doesn't have a lot to do with how the majority in any group of masculine ID's here on BFP feel.

ETA: Actually even further I've never talked outside of this site with butches about female ID or what-ever...

Oh, I'm really sorry. I thought you were asking me questions that you wanted me to answer about how I felt from my perspective. Obviously, you know the people on this site and they haven't said that to you. Soooooo......
A couple of peeps off site? hmmm. Well you can characterize it how you want, it's your thread and you know everyone...and apparently are listening in on my phone calls - odd. But ok.
In fact I specifically said in my post - is it still my post? - IS that I sensed that that what was going on and that people were saying one thing and calling it another. That is what I said, speficially they are not spelling it out that way in the threads. I base that on people whom I have talked to in real time and IM and on the phone - people who I do know AND AND consider to be my friends - cuz I can be friends with people who disagree with me I'm friendly in that way - who have told me HOW THEY FELT about male IDs being on this site. How many people does that have to be to justify the existance of a undercurrent to YOU?
Now I fell all bad because I thought that you - YOU METRO - actually started this thread to actually see what people were thinking about this. NICE TRAP. I didn't see that one coming and I mean it - as someone who considers you a friend.
I will step out of here now and let you all get to discussing how you (the collective you - of which I don't belong to) agree with each other, how you are right and no one else has a perspective unless it fits in yours.
Thanks.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by adorable

..........I talk to people from here. What people's true motives are, I don't have to guess. Pleny of people do not believe that male IDs belong here. That trans, ftms, TGs - anyone who considers themselves a man -does not belong. They WANT a woman only space. They have been fighting for the right their whole lives. Well, I have been fighting my entire life too, my feelings are just as valid and I have a say.....................

I'll admit I entirely baffled by this response adorable. I asked you a sincere question about your response and then gave my own experience that's relating to what you were talking about.

I'm sorry you feel that way and that you feel that way about me, my response to you and motives. But that's you're prerogative.

*done with my derail*
Metro

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I'll admit I entirely baffled by this response adorable. I asked you a sincere question about your response and then gave my own experience that's relating to what you were talking about.

I'm sorry you feel that way and that you feel that way about me, my response to you and motives.
Metro

ETA: I actually was going to start it and not participate at all, and just hear what people were thinking... I really don't want this thread derailed so I'm just going to leave it at that... and if you personally feel I've done something feel free to PM me.

I did see that line of questioning as being motivated. I take you at your word that you were not doing that to invalidate what I was saying. I apologize for misreading you or accusing you of something. I shouldn't have done that.

I would love to have a real discussion about what is actually going on. I have tried to so many times - I can pull those posts - and nothing...it turns into the snowball and no one feels (IMO) that they are willing to put themselves out there in a meaningful way.

So if people can just be allowed to post how they feel or what they see as they see it - imo -I hope it will work. I don't really think that overall anyone likes the great divide. In the meantime, I see that I have been "unfriended" - that speaks volumes. Have a great day.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by adorable

I did see that line of questioning as being motivated. I take you at your word that you were not doing that to invalidate what I was saying. I apologize for misreading you or accusing you of something. I shouldn't have done that.

I would love to have a real discussion about what is actually going on. I have tried to so many times - I can pull those posts - and nothing...it turns into the snowball and no one feels (IMO) that they are willing to put themselves out there in a meaningful way.

So if people can just be allowed to post how they feel or what they see as they see it - imo -I hope it will work. I don't really think that overall anyone likes the great divide. In the meantime, I see that I have been "unfriended" - that speaks volumes. Have a great day.

I just "unfriended" about 20 peeps on Facebook who've never commented, "liked" or even interacted with me in anyway on Facebook. I did the same thing about a month ago...

If you noticed you were NOT "unfriended" on this site...

But ok...
Metro

ETA: And to be very frank... until you just said that did I even put 2 and 2 together as to who you were... on my facebook and the dash site, since you've not made it known to me here on BFP at any time.

And again, I'm sorry you're reading me as you are, it only says you do not truly know me in the first place.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I just "unfriended" about 20 peeps on Facebook who've never commented, "liked" or even interacted with me in anyway on Facebook. I did the same thing about a month ago...

If you noticed you were NOT "unfriended" on this site...

But ok...
Metro

ETA: And to be very frank... until you just said that did I even put 2 and 2 together as to who you were... on my facebook and the dash site, since you've not made it known to me here.

Well that isn't true now is it? I told you who I was when I joined here and friended you.
And I told you, just like I told Dylan - it was so I could bask in the glory of Dylan repping me until he figured out who I was...lol. And that just happened recently.
I have 696 friends on FB. I don't have the time to like everyone's posts. But unfriending is called unfriending....and I sure noticed even with 696 other peeps.

[Hack]

I sense no animosity from any group or anyone here. I'm sorry to read that others have different experiences. One of the many things I do like about this site is that over on the left side of each post, where our avatar is, there is a line about pronoun preference. I find it nice that it is there because I feel that my preference is honored, and I can see how others prefer, so if I address them in post I know ahead of time what they want me to use.

I think that when I am out and about in the world, I am called "sir" way more than "ma'am." Even when I am addressed as "ma'am," I may slightly flinch, but I decided long ago that there are things in the world more important to fight over than whether or not the store clerk or waiter calls me sir or ma'am. I say that in no way to dismiss anyone's fight or struggle to get their i.d. out there the way they want it. I simply say that for myself I choose not to argue, as long as I am addressed politely and courteously, that is usually all that matters to me.

What it comes down to is I have a very firm grip on who I am. I know that how I i.d. is entirely up to me to define, and not others. I am very comfortable in my skin. I wasn't always, but as I age, perhaps I am mellowing. Who knows?

Jake

[BullDog]

Well, as far as I am concerned the most relevant post in the whole damn thread is Heart's. I guess it's ok for people to spout Facebook conspiracy theories, but not bring up misogyny and sexism- which is the heart of the matter.

Misogyny and sexism concerns everyone, so why are people telling Heart not to post here?


Yes there are individuals who don't like each other, yes there are people who are rude, yes some of the same things get said over and over. That's the small tiny stuff people want to talk about instead of the underlying issues.

Talking about sexism and misogyny does not equal anti-trans or anti-male.

If anyone has issues with me or what I said or where I said it, please tell me directly instead of cryptic talk. You can send it to me privately so as not to derail if that's the issue.

[Stoney]

Okay here are my questions....

why in the hell does this have to be a war? why is is that people can have any " right or wrong" way to define or identify themselves??? how could I just say" Oh Im a dyke and some one else says well , excuse me you might say you are a dyke but you are really a queer in "my" opinion... you Identify as a man... but "you are wrong because I think you are more like a female. You say you are a butch but You cant be because you shave your arm pits..yada yada.

.I mean who GIVES A FUCK ?

and like wise... How am I gonna get pissed off because someone thinks Im a dyke but not a queer? or thinks Im not as butch as they think I should be etc..
AGAIN..who gives a fuck?

I mean I am lesbian and butch and yeah sometimes people think I am a man, I get called sir more often than not. what am I gonna do punch people in the face cause they made and honest mistake?.....hell I wouldnt punch them in the face for saying it for any reason... I am me. I dress like me, I act like me. Everyone sees me through their own eyes , not mine.They dont know really where I have been, what my life means to me and for the most part most people dont care bout that either.
If a comment is made it is for their own entertainment if it is derogatory , out of ignorance if ... well it is just plain ignorant ...but most are simply mistakes.

I cut my hair short , I buy my clothes from the mens section.. people are gonna assume thinks about me .quick glance, yes, I fit a stereotype one I am well aware of... duh.....I dressed myself today. It is human nature to assume.

Those things used to bother me, what people thought, how I would fit in ,measure up...
.then I really thought..measure up to what? another's opinion of the person i am and how I should be this way or that to fit the impression they have of me??

the person you are is you,the life you are creating belongs to you,the one most important thing that can never be stolen, altered, felt or experienced by any other human being but ourselves is what we believe about and embrace within ourselves and claim to be our truth.

Stand firm in who you are , but be understanding to those who haven't walked in your shoes What they think of you , what they project has reason, whether it is insulting, stereotyping, or just plain asinine; there is a lesson for you, compassion and understanding can go a long long way, remember.. they are trying to create themselves too

As for in places like this.

I have had even the sweetest words misinterpreted when i have posted. I have been attacked and insulted and my feelings got hurt then I got jumped on over having feelings and then an attack on my sexuality

and I have to admit and Im embarrassed to say It fucked with me. I mean I truly let the words of people online fuck with my life.
I thought about the stuff they said and I picked myself apart over it. rehashed the words and intentions in my head ( I mean not obsessively or anything but now and then when I missed going to the site) I didnt return for over a year. Then had a lower profile. didnt say much, just read posts until I seen so much of the same happening to other people like me who innocently insulted someone and then got emotionally beat down and run off for it. And I stopped candy coating what I had to say. I mean I feel I am a pretty emotionally stable happy person who visits this site and what about some of the folks that come in here and make mistakes , words said , oversensitive responses and projection can be damaging and hurtful, and face it some people who come to sites like this it is their only sense of family, sometimes it is all they have , maybe they have mental problems, are depressed, their dog just got run over , who knows... the point is...I know how it affected me and I rather like myself, what about those that do not? so I started saying what I want.

I had already decided that I wouldnt let things said on line bother me anymore and I honestly have plenty of life out here to life without entertaining insults and arguements who either have no right to form an opinion on " my Feelings" ( which happens alot it seems in posts)and then insult me or I accidently offend, leave out, misunderstand,only include"whatever", point to, reference to what the fuck ever I it is I do wrong and it is back on again......

It is like an online soap turning into Jerry springer ... my two least favorite shows next to Rush Lumbaugh. No thanks

This is supposed to be a place for friends, we are all here because we have some of the same issues, we are here to support and help each other. we are here to learn about ourselves and the people we love and or support. We have so much in common but it seems even in this community all people can do is point out and debate each others differences. why separate? why judge, why stereotype, isnt that what we are trying to escape?.
Separation provokes fear, and judgment and both of those lead to hate.

Whether you are a femme who has kids but is now with a butch , if you were born male but live as a female, if you are in love with a man who was born a woman, if you are a feminist tree huggin peace and love lesbian or the two 75yr old gym teachers who have shared a home for over 40 yrs... some one hates you.
people hate us in this world okay.. I mean it is a fact.

People die because they are some sort of " Queer" every single day...

that is fucked up enough isnt it?


why do we have to divide, separate, ride around on our own high horses spouting off what it means to be queer when we really only have the knowlege of one thing and that is what kind of queer we are.

And if any one is offended over me calling us , this community queers than I just have to say..

you didn't understand a thing I said and whether you did or not,, your too damn sensitive and I ain't into arguing about it..

seriously though.....This post was not intended to piss anyone off
If It does.............

......shrug, you dont know me, you took it wrong and I dont care.

Much peace everyone!!
I deeply and truly mean that!!
Stoney





And just plain stupid assholes.......fuck em ... who cares what they think... I aint wasting one minute explaining myself or validating, or defending anything to them

[apretty]

who are you fighting with?

Originally Posted by adorable

I will fight for male IDs to be here until I get told that this isn't the place for them. I felt this way on the dash site and I feel this way here...

[adorable]

Originally Posted by June

It clearly is a serious issue! Otherwise, we wouldn't have a gajillion threads going on the topic! People wouldn't be walking around all butt-hurt because they feel like they're not being heard! People wouldn't be making broad, generalized statements about how one group is welcome here and other groups aren't and making snide comments about how "It's just like the dash site" Well, duh. We're all the same navel gazing group (give or take a few) and we're loud, obnoxious and opinionated and we want to make sure our points get across. I can and do get strident about things as well. But as tired as I am sometimes of having/watching these conversations, I do learn from them, and I suspect others do as well, or they wouldn't keep coming back for more. And more. And more.

Ok. I don't think it's dramatic to say what I see happening - I do tend to speak dramatically for special effect. I'm glad my manner of speaking is translating well online. Makes me feel like people are getting me.

Except that they aren't.

For me the conversation about male IDs and misogyny needs to be separate. They are completely different things. I am reading all the conversations in both threads and what I read is that there is a sense that there isn't a bigger issue and that it's just a few people who have a problem. In my mind, as I am reading those statements, I am saying "Yes, there are a few people arguing back and forth because so many MALE ID'S LEFT!"

I'm not saying that THIS SITE specifically (because there is a different attitude from the ownership here entirely.) I am saying that over the years <---and I wasn't there for all the years I am exhausted just from the time I've spent...that they stopped coming around. Now, my friends of whom there are male IDs about 10 that don't come to this site or the other site anymore do not come because they don't want to fight about who they are inside constantly. When they speak up about themselves and their insides they are accused by some (not all) of misogyny or of being dismissive to women.

How they feel is seen by some as a CHOICE. That they are choosing to feel the way they do on the inside in an effort to be more of a bio born man because there is something wrong with being a woman. It is a ridiculous notion for me personally because I see how separate those two things are....but because some people don't understand that - it becomes one and the same.

People who chose to transition are not doing so because they want to be better then women. They are doing that so that their insides and outsides match. Young people, old people and all people in between are not choosing to be men just because it's cooler then being a woman. That sentiment is dismissive to who people are on the inside. And it is here. Right here. Right now.

There are male IDs on this site who have not spoken up. I can't blame them. I am a fighter, but yesterday even I had just had it. It was too much. I think lots of people felt the same way on all sides.

It is not enough for people to say that they don't do it so it's not there. I see it as no different then when our friends would say something to my ex like "Happy Cinco De Mayo" when they knew she wasn't Mexican - and she would say "I don't celebrate that, that is a Mexican holiday." And they would say "Well but you're Spanish right?"
"No, I'm Venezuelan."
"Same thing! You know what I mean!"
Except that she didn't.
OY! And, I didn't keep a tally, but that shit happened all the time. It's not exactly racism right? But it sure is dismissive of who she IS...

So to say to people who feel like men on the inside that they are welcome to be here and then accuse them of some agenda or misogyny when they are in threads talking about who they are - is kinda the same thing for me. "We are your friends. We know and appreciate who you are! You are sexist and misogynistic!...well you know what I mean.." Except that they don't. So then they are stuck in the same argument of defending themselves for how they feel inside.

Being a male ID has nothing at all to do with wanting to be superior to women. It isn't about being more "hetronormative" and seeing that as superior to queerdom.

SOME people will see what they want to see no matter what people say...
LOTS of people no longer engage in these discussions. I am sure that everyone is tired of it. I know that I am.

I know that I am sick of people taking other people's ID's as a personal attack on women or female IDs. I sure got sick real fast of defending my personal ID over and over. Or having to explain why I was a butch and why my version of butch wasn't femme or that I was somehow butch enough to be butch?? In fact, I stopped engaging in all discussions about that for myself. I can't keep justifying and fighting for my insides to people that are making arguments about what it means to me based on who they are inside. And don't even get me started on the PMs based on how I look. (which happened all the time on the dash site) Ugh.

And in that way I am silenced. In the same way I see male IDs being silenced. People can say "Well, that's on you! Don't let anyone silence you!" Ahhh, and they are right. That for me is a choice. One that I needed to make for myself so that I didn't go to bed crying every night because of who I am being misunderstood when what I wanted so desperately to be understood by someone somewhere. It's shitty when it happens in real time or online. And it happens. It's real. It sucks.

As for the people who say privately that they want it to be a women only space, they also are not speaking up. I would rather people just say it out loud so we can deal with that. I would never call them out individually. I consider these people my friends too. I just don't happen to agree with them.
That is probably the toughest stand to take in all of this. And no one wants to lose friendships as a result of how they personally feel. The group is powerful as a body. To risk exclusion is also powerful, regardless of who you are, what you believe or how you ID.

As for the facebook thing - that actually wasn't a personal thing. I still like Metro and her art. lol. I believe that it was all an issue of bad timing. And even tho she thought I didn't pay attention to her posts - I have paid attention to her posts long enough over a year to know that she's not an asshole. This is a hot topic for those of us trying to engage in a meaningful way. Which I can say that Metro does and for that I am grateful.