Wanting to be a man of integrity: lost cause?

[Nat]

I've met one transman like this in person and another online. I've met some cismen like this too, but not so many. Thankfully, I think they are far outnumbered by those who do have integrity and respect.


"People pay for what they do, and still more for what they have allowed themselves to become. And they pay for it very simply; by the lives they lead."

- James Baldwin

[Dylan]

I'm wondering a few things

A) Why is this article being particularized to transmen in this thread? I assume, it's because of the comment Linus read on a trans site.

Ok, fair enough.

But, I've got a nickel says, had you put this out on the site and changed the 'man' to butch and 'women' to femme, the article would have elicited the same commentary, and there would be one camp saying, "It's funny" and there would be one camp saying, "This is offensive".

Just
Like
Always
Happens
When these stupid things are ripped off the internet. We haven't seen an influx of these types of things in a while on these sites, but I'm sure everyone, in this thread at least, remembers how frequently they've shown up.

I'm sure if you posted this article on a cis, straight website, there would probably be the same camps, altho the ratios per camp might be different.

I've met cisfolks and transfolks of all flavors and genders who would find this article incredibly humorous...as have ALL of us.

So, seriously, I'm not understanding why transguys are apparently expected to have 'more integrity' or 'respect'. I'm also not understanding why transmen would be ANY more 'expected' to not play into stereotypes or fight against isms than anyone else. I mean, everyone *should* be doing this, no? Yet, there are people who don't across ALL genders and IDs...so, yeah, I'm not getting it. Transpeople's very existence is fighting against an ism (as are many other people's). So...yeah...I'm not understanding


2. Another thing I'm not understanding is why, if this thread is in the trans zone, why so many cispeople of another sex are pontificating about the experiences of transmen...how they *should* act or how they *should* be 'taught'. I mean, wouldn't just about any child get 'smacked upside the head' (usually by the women in their lives) if they came home with these attitudes or said the wrong thing about women? Shouldn't it be that way? And again, isn't it awfully cissexist to assume transpeople have been socialized a certain way (did or didn't get certain 'trainings' as a child)? I wouldn't let my kid say stupid shit no matter their gender. I wasn't allowed to say certain things in the house or around the women in my family, and it had nothing to do with gender or ID...it had to do with being disrespectful.

3. I am confused, Linus, by your use of the word 'integrity'. I'm not trying to play the Semantics Game, because I actually hate that game, but I am just wondering what you mean by 'integrity'.


I Had Another Point,
Dylan

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I'm wondering a few things

A) Why is this article being particularized to transmen in this thread? I assume, it's because of the comment Linus read on a trans site.

Ok, fair enough.

But, I've got a nickel says, had you put this out on the site and changed the 'man' to butch and 'women' to femme, the article would have elicited the same commentary, and there would be one camp saying, "It's funny" and there would be one camp saying, "This is offensive".

I dunno about that but I hope not. I would imagine there would be far more outraged than supportive but I'm guessing on that.

I've met cisfolks and transfolks of all flavors and genders who would find this article incredibly humorous...as have ALL of us.

I didn't find it funny. If anything I found it suggesting that all women are manipulating, conniving liars. Are you saying that's true? Humour can be done well without making generalizations like that.

So, seriously, I'm not understanding why transguys are apparently expected to have 'more integrity' or 'respect'. I'm also not understanding why transmen would be ANY more 'expected' to not play into stereotypes or fight against isms than anyone else. I mean, everyone *should* be doing this, no? Yet, there are people who don't across ALL genders and IDs...so, yeah, I'm not getting it. Transpeople's very existence is fighting against an ism (as are many other people's). So...yeah...I'm not understanding

Yes, all should be doing this but I asked here specifically to get a trans point of view. I had wondered if I had missed something. I thought that perhaps because of my personal life experience that perhaps I didn't quite get how it is "true" since I find none of true.

3. I am confused, Linus, by your use of the word 'integrity'. I'm not trying to play the Semantics Game, because I actually hate that game, but I am just wondering what you mean by 'integrity'.

It was something that a transman in a support group once said that resonated with me. He said that he would always strive to be a "man of integrity". That is, ensure that what he believes and what his actions are matches; and, that he would fight against a variety of 'isms' that have meaning to him based on his past. When we discussed it, it hit home as something that I have been trying to live by but could not articulate.

Does that help?


P.S. I cannot answer/address #2 since I do not feel it applies. If I missed something, let me know.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Linus

I dunno about that but I hope not. I would imagine there would be far more outraged than supportive but I'm guessing on that.




I didn't find it funny. If anything I found it suggesting that all women are manipulating, conniving liars. Are you saying that's true? Humour can be done well without making generalizations like that.



Yes, all should be doing this but I asked here specifically to get a trans point of view. I had wondered if I had missed something. I thought that perhaps because of my personal life experience that perhaps I didn't quite get how it is "true" since I find none of true.



It was something that a transman in a support group once said that resonated with me. He said that he would always strive to be a "man of integrity". That is, ensure that what he believes and what his actions are matches; and, that he would fight against a variety of 'isms' that have meaning to him based on his past. When we discussed it, it hit home as something that I have been trying to live by but could not articulate.

Does that help?


P.S. I cannot answer/address #2 since I do not feel it applies. If I missed something, let me know.

Cool. Thank you for your responses.

My personal pontification is that (as with many previous posts of a similar nature where man/woman was exchanged with butch/femme) it would be about 50/50. Welllll, wait, because about 4ish years ago, it would have been about 50/50. I'm gonna hazard a guess that it would be more 70ish against the article and 30ish in favor of the article. I'm changing that from 50-50, because in recent years, we really haven't seen as many of these articles popping up, and I don't know if that's because people's minds have changed, of if it's because the people who find it humorous have decided to shut up about it. But based on previous threads a few years ago, it used to be about 50-50.

Thank you for explaining the integrity part. That does make it more clear.


Much Appreciated,
Dylan

[Dylan]

Linus,

From a personal place, I don't necessarily agree with the article...but then, I'm also wondering if that's not for me to say, since it was written by a women about women.

Where's that line?

I mean, if I were to read an article written by, say, a person from a culture that's not mine, is it then my place to say the article is offensive to that group?

Example: Is it my place to say, Chris Rock's humor is racist? I'm being serious...I wonder.


Dylan...I also find the article cis-sexist, and I wonder if applying it to trans people perpetuates cissexist attitudes. But again...I wonder many things. I'm not cis-sexed, and expecting One to conform to (or get 'the humor' of) cis-sexed society seems a little like...perpetuating cissexist views and mentalities. Does that makes sense?

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Linus,

From a personal place, I don't necessarily agree with the article...but then, I'm also wondering if that's not for me to say, since it was written by a women about women.

Where's that line?

I mean, if I were to read an article written by, say, a person from a culture that's not mine, is it then my place to say the article is offensive to that group?

Example: Is it my place to say, Chris Rock's humor is racist? I'm being serious...I wonder.


Dylan...I also find the article cis-sexist, and I wonder if applying it to trans people perpetuates cissexist attitudes. But again...I wonder many things. I'm not cis-sexed, and expecting One to conform to (or get 'the humor' of) cis-sexed society seems a little like...perpetuating cissexist views and mentalities. Does that makes sense?

We believe it's a woman. Until I meet the author in person, I cannot know one way or another. Regardless of who wrote it, doesn't mean it needs to be continued and propagated elsewhere. There are lots of weird stuff on the Internet and thanks to sites like Snopes, we're able to find truth (or falsehoods) in many of those things. I do not have to take it at face value as being true.

Now, as to whether I can speak for women, true. I may not being a position to speak on behalf of women but I can certainly speak on behalf of myself, as a man, how it bothers me and how I feel it's inaccurate and full of stereotypes.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Linus

We believe it's a woman. Until I meet the author in person, I cannot know one way or another. Regardless of who wrote it, doesn't mean it needs to be continued and propagated elsewhere. There are lots of weird stuff on the Internet and thanks to sites like Snopes, we're able to find truth (or falsehoods) in many of those things. I do not have to take it at face value as being true.

Now, as to whether I can speak for women, true. I may not being a position to speak on behalf of women but I can certainly speak on behalf of myself, as a man, how it bothers me and how I feel it's inaccurate and full of stereotypes.

Or maybe it's true for this woman's perspective and some people she knows personally.

Again, I'm not cis-sexed, nor do I date many straight women (for whom this article speaks), so, eh...who knows.

I think it definitely promotes heterosexist and cis sexist norms and standards, and I choose not to participate in perpetuating those standards.

I'm not arguing with you...just conversing.


Dylan

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I've met cisfolks and transfolks of all flavors and genders who would find this article incredibly humorous...as have ALL of us.

Dylan

Ew

Let me clarify this sentence as this sentence is horribly worded and really gives off the wrong idea

I meant

I've met cisfolks and transfolks of all flavors, genders, and sexual proclivities who would find this article incredibly humorous...as ALL of us have met people who would feel that way.

I really really really did NOT mean to suggest, "We ALL found this article incredibly humorous"

Gahhhhh, I soooooooo did not mean that at all.

Sorry for the poor grammar and sentence structuring


Mahhh Bad,
Dylan

[Ursy]

Originally Posted by Dylan

2. Another thing I'm not understanding is why, if this thread is in the trans zone, why so many cispeople of another sex are pontificating about the experiences of transmen...how they *should* act or how they *should* be 'taught'. I mean, wouldn't just about any child get 'smacked upside the head' (usually by the women in their lives) if they came home with these attitudes or said the wrong thing about women? Shouldn't it be that way? And again, isn't it awfully cissexist to assume transpeople have been socialized a certain way (did or didn't get certain 'trainings' as a child)? I wouldn't let my kid say stupid shit no matter their gender. I wasn't allowed to say certain things in the house or around the women in my family, and it had nothing to do with gender or ID...it had to do with being disrespectful.

Sorry if you don't think cisgendered people should be participating in the discussion, Dylan.

I did wonder whether, being in the Trans zone, I really should reply. But that's kinda why I didn't concentrate on the "Trans" aspect, more on the "people" and "society" aspect - and just hoped it was still useful to Linus.