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05-29-2010, 01:21 PM | #41 | ||||
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That has been repeated, nicely several times, and its also very clear in the original post. Why you keep repeating it, I don't know. But to answer the first part, this zone is no different, the OP, specifically asked for a Femme Perspective,m and that make sit different from other Threads, that don't state that in their Opening Post. But again I say, No One has Asked you, NOT TO POST ok ? Does yelling it help ? I prefer not to yell but I also prefer for people to actually read what I said. And I don't like it when people read in something, that wasn't there, nor even thought. Quote:
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Do you write scripts for faux News or something ? |
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05-29-2010, 11:45 PM | #42 | |
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I'm not sure if I've had a change of heart or if it's the drinks... My post in this thread, I still argue wasn't a perspective but an observation. So to be asked or as I see it as being called out specifically because I don't ID as femme is a double standard that I haven't found in other threads. Perhaps it's there....in the thread on this topic on the butch zone, plenty of femmes posted and not once did anyone ask for clarification. I doubt the ID of femme alone means that someone has a clarity on perspective. Femmes are not the same, anymore then all butches are the same, anymore then all trans are the same....... Not IDing as a Femme or a Butch for me personally is about how the words are used HERE. Where I live in real time, they are not used in the same way that so many people use them in online. My real time community and I use the words in the same way. My experience online has taught me that people absolutely freak out in the way I use the words....and I know that is because of for many they consider it their gender. Gender is something that I am VERY respectful of on many levels and embrace for all people. How people feel on the inside is not a joke or something I want to be seen as dismissive of... ever. It has happened to me in real time and online. So I don't use the term butch or femme as an ID in here. I am most aligned with Kiki in a historical sense. I don't embrace it entirely. I am both butch and FEM which is not short for femme, rather feminine....which is how we use the words here... Kiki was used as a disparaging term during the 1950s which does trouble me for that reason. I don't consider myself a switch sexually - so to me Kiki doesn't equal switch and why I prefer use it for myself. I love the 1950s version of BF that I have read (I wish there were more) I tend to romanticize it.... I am a feminine woman who is seen as straight in my day to day life. I tell everyone I am queer because I am lucky enough to live where I do....it takes far less bravery then it does for many of you. Location, location, location. I belong to all and nothing. In my head and with people who know me in real time I am understood or at the very least respected. Translating that online is very difficult. I can say that my experiences are very similar as a woman with many on this site. Exactly the same? None are exactly the same. But I am a woman. I am queer. I am a mother and a daughter. I work. I cry. I feel. I love.... |
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05-29-2010, 11:53 PM | #43 | |
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I have no issues with what people call themselves and where people fall along the butch-femme line as it is constantly changing for most all of us on some level. I also have no issue with people who do not identify as butch or femme participating on the site. I do have problems when someone speaks from "the place of" a specific ID that they do not own. This is what it has felt like when reading your posts in various threads over the last few days. |
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05-30-2010, 12:01 AM | #44 | |
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ETA: I didn't speak in this particular thread in that way if you look at my OP either. I was simply agreeing with two femme's perspectives and an observation that I had made. It was something I wanted to add and I personally thought had value to the current discussion. I didn't take the OP and answer all the questions as if I was a femme.... |
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05-30-2010, 03:18 AM | #45 |
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Adorable - if you are here you belong. The interest in your Id (for me) has been more "how do I read your words" than any determination about whether or not you belong or have a right to speak. Anyway thank you for being kind enough to indulge the questions.
My gf does not identify as either butch or femme and she is total awesomeness in my world. She doesn't post here partially because of that and partially because she's not a huge fan of Internet forums, but I do hope she would feel welcomed here if she ever did decide to join.
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05-30-2010, 08:40 AM | #46 | |
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My ID will not help you read my words any more then anyone else's ID helps you read their words. Words themselves help you understand where someone is coming from. Words and who someone is helps you understand perspective. All people in general have different perspectives based on where they live, how they were raised, what has happened in their lives, who they are partnered with, who they have been partnered with in the past, where they work and in some cases how they fuck. To say that somehow knowing or understanding my ID will help you read my words doesn't make anymore sense to me then if I said I was a purple goat. In order for my ID to help you read my words we would all have to agree on the same definition of particular IDs which will never happen. If anyone starts saying that Femmes do this and Butches do this - well, that isn't true is it? So for me people that claim femme or butch (or any other ID) doesn't have anything to do with their perspective on a particular topic. Someone isn't saying something because they are a certain ID, they are saying something based on the whole of their experiences. |
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05-30-2010, 08:51 AM | #47 |
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I disagree with you like 90%.
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05-30-2010, 09:57 AM | #48 | |||
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isn't it funny that claiming female (and *She*) has become a subversive act? we're also having these conversations at home, E doesn't get the historical context/background of the *dash* site where SHE = glittery prom dress and HE = could only mean man *and* butch (spit/grunt). and in my FEMME head (like most of us), SHE means all sorts of things (including big papa and my mean old man). E asked me why everyone (specifically ME) doesn't just leave that 'shit over there'? and i have to admit, it occurs to me that i've been reading/posting/participating *here* from a skeptical/protective (anti-dash?) place--not wanting the *SHE* to become once again marginalized. and in doing so, i've just assumed that the male-folk are comfortable/welcome and taking up space (because of my prior experience: "that's what males do"). frankly, that's not fair of me. new site! and though many of the same people are here, we're collectively older and wiser. and i've *done* all of the stuff that now makes me cringe: assigning gender, HE-ing all butches, yes! i've done it and it's utter shit and i'm *glad* that i now know better--the world is so much cooler when it's not cleaved in *two* Quote:
it's a hugely sensitive subject! and to say, hey something's not right here and still be an ally: i struggle with balancing the two, still. i'm well aware of what it is to be partnered to someone exploring their gender and needing to take the steps to correct the gender that they present to the outside world and i've been in the position to be the support and be the advocate for those guys. so, as difficult as it is for me to say, i do see that *other* stuff goes into transitioning from FTM like internalized homophobia, discomfort or a *lack* of butch community, the faux butch-continuum (she = feminine female and butch-EST = TRANSmale), etc. and of course this isn't true for even a majority of trans people--but for the butches that see transitioning as a means of dodging the lesbo-bullet i just wanna say: the simple fact is, everyone struggles with being female in this society and you can be female bodied and way more of a MAN than the manliest man out there if you so choose, by virtue of your existence. Quote:
a femme subjugating herself is sooooo unattractive! and it breaks my heart a little because i hold *femme* as precious and unsullied by that patriarchal/hetero/misog bullshit--but the simple fact is, of *course* we're a product of our environment and its messages and while we're not all there, i believe we can all *get there*. **and a public thank you to Heart for her conviction!! |
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06-01-2010, 12:18 PM | #49 | |
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Here is why. "All people in general have different perspectives based on where they live, how they were raised, what has happened in their lives, who they are partnered with, who they have been partnered with in the past, where they work and in some cases how they fuck." And ID'ing as Femme, Butch, Trans, a Dyke, a Lesbian, a Man, etc... all are figured out from one's own "soul searching" of course but even that is influenced by what has happened in folks likes and who they are partnered with, what communities they are involved in, what they learned from other Queers, communities, etc. How I speak and how my words are heard and read are absolutely influenced by how by my Femme identity and how I figured it out...through friends, experiences, communities, whom I dated, etc. BECAUSE I learned and discovered this from all those things. How you/I/we came to figure out/decide the ID that suits us is a product of living, experience, environment, etc. So, I'm not sure how those things can be separate. We are products of our lives' experiences.
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06-01-2010, 02:52 PM | #50 |
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I find this whole discussion moot. Obviously people ID differently. We are all complex beings who have many identities. I don't think I like being "pigeonholed" (for lack of a better term) into anyone reading me through a "femme lense" rather than a human lens. Femme to me is PART of many parts of who I am. (I.E. I am fat, I am highly educated, I am of European descent, I am old, I am handicapped, I am...)
The last time I checked, I had no need to make comments on how people ID, just had to accept it. I have been and out femme for over 30 years. I have seen the ebb and wane of ID's that are accepted and not accepted. Now, I know it is a femme thread, so it makes sense to ask how a participant id's. Once they ID or chose not to ID, I need to move on I do not need to vilify (I know strong word but that is the "feeling" I get from posts) or keep hounding on the same subject because I did not get an answer I liked. "No" or "do not ID as femme" is an answer, whether I like the answer or not. So now with that knowledge I can "read" through my femme lens posts. Historically, in the 50's and 60's you had to id either b or f in our community, those who ID'd as kiki were kind of shunned or feared. The rigid structures of that culture were questioned and dismissed by some and we had the androgynous lesbian community. Rigidity led to backlash against the b/f community in the 70's where b/f became ridiculed for being "pawns of the patriarchy" and "coping heterosexual relationships". (K, I find it amusing that those same people are now touting for acceptance that we are JUST like heterosexual relationships.) I would hate to go back to that rigid structure. I am a femme lesbian. I have always been a femme lesbian. I marched my little ass off to say that out loud. What I am reading is two different perspectives. Each is worthwhile, each is legitimate and valued. So to disagree is a natural thing and actually a good thing. I have gotten to the point with somethings to ask without snark or cynicism, "Is it okay to disagree with you?" Because sometimes it seems it is not or at least the question opens up a discussion on the ability to disagree and still honor one another. I, like Sassy, have huge issues with cultural appropriation of language. To me, a woman can be feminine if she is not queer id'ed but femme is part of the glbt culture. But it is my opinion...
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06-09-2010, 11:55 AM | #51 |
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Maybe if the collective *we* spent more time building bridges than we do building fences there would be no Gender Wars?
Because I look around lately and see lots of fences being erected, and they are blocking the bridges. |
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06-09-2010, 12:16 PM | #52 |
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06-09-2010, 01:57 PM | #53 | ||||||||
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Within this conversation, I am willing to admit that I do sometimes feel as if there is a great deal of pressure (or at least that there historically has been) from within the queer community to "pick a side". By that, I mean, that there seems to be this ... concept... stereotype.... or expectation (fighting for the right word here...) that if you are femme, you must be a certain 'type' of femme (IE traditionally female, take on traditionally female or feminine roles in your family, relationship, dress and act a certain way, etc) and that if you are butch, you must be a certain 'type' of butch (IE traditionally male, take on traditionally male or masculine roles in your family, relationship, dress, and act in those ways, etc.) BECAUSE of this pressure that I (speaking from my me-place) perceive, I feel that the lack of a community that really respects ALL the shades of femme and butch equally creates pressure to pick one extreme or another which, and I know I'm asking for trouble here but I want to be honest about my perception, leads to perhaps hastiness and confusion on the masculine 'side' of things that makes figuring out possible transgender/transexual issues even trickier than I presume it already is. Quote:
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I think that there is dischord within the femme community and that there is as someone (please forgive my lack of credit here) put - a hierarchy. I get bristly at terms like "high femme" (does that make me a "low femme"?) and get that those are my own sensitivities and issues because I am not a super dress-uppy kinda femme. I dont' wear makeup except on occasion or for a particular purpose. So, that's ME doing my defensive thing about "my femme ID is just as good as your femme ID". So in that way, I think that we do the competitive thing just as I perceive that the butches do the competitive thing. All that said, though I have to give BIG PROPS to this community because at least here at BFP, this seems so much better than I remember from my old days at the other site - and I bet it's not just the change of scenery but because some time has passed and people like Medusa and Metropolis and others have been HAVING these types of conversations so from someone who has been away for a few years, I can really see the difference and commend this community for it's collective growth. You all rock. Quote:
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So that is MY personal stuff and I know that when I get frustrated in ID and gender conversations that this certainly colours my perspective and I own that. I'm still working on it, and like I said above, this community as I see it has come a LONG way even in the last few years, from what I can see so far and that seems pretty darn impressive. I really don't like to speak too much to misogyny and sexism because I dont' know enough about either (from an educated standpoint) to feel like I can hold my own in conversations about this. But i will say one thing and hope it comes out right. We live in a binary society. That is the reality as I see it. Where I live I have met people who identify as Ze, as It, as Hyr, as She, He, They and a myriad of other genders and identities. But when these same people step outside their queer communities they do not use anything other than she or he - when communicating with people on a professional level. I appreciate that everyone has the right to their ID, but I wonder at how we segregate ourselves and create a community with a rainbow of IDs that we then do not take out into the rest of the world with us. And so I perceive we have two worlds we seem to live in - the segregated queer community where we can be "who we are" which means living by a different set of rules and expecting people in that community to treat you differently than you expect people outside of that community to treat you. I'm not sure how beneficial that is to the greater human community that we live, work, and play in. I'm not sure what we're actually DOING to change anything when we maintain our binary roles in the areas that require the greatest change. This is just my perception I go to work every single day and I out myself again, and again, and again. I bring my butch wife with me to work events. I answer my coworkers questions when they're confused about why the two of us look different and when they ask questions that 'feel' offensive but that I KNOW is just them seeking understanding and information. Every day, I own my identity 24/7. Whether I am within the queer community, the professional community, or anywhere else, I act the same and expect the same level of respect for who I am and (this is important to me) that means that I am willing to take the time to educate ANYONE in my life who doesn't understand and that means sometimes I get asked questions that are uncomfortable. That means that sometimes someone says something offensive, and I have found that most of the time it's unintentional and that by being willing to listen and not freak out and give them an answer, that I can teach them something, about me and who I am and that people who are "different" than what we call mainstream aren't as scary as one might think. This is how I work to make change in my immediate community and in the places i live and love. Quote:
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02-09-2011, 08:11 PM | #54 |
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Great thread Medusa! I thank you.
I haven't been here in a while. I am so glad you started this conversation. It is long overdue both online and in real time. I think. I cannot answer all the questions, but I will say what I feel is going on regarding Gender Wars... Once upon a time when I came out in the 1990's, Butches opened doors and they opened minds. Femmes loved being Femmes, we also opened minds, we were liked and treated well. I don't remember misogyny at all. Butches were called she or he, or both, it depended on the Butch. Nobody around me ever made a big deal about their pronoun because it was respected and they would tell us what to use. Period. The Older Femmes whom I respected and worshiped, helped me shape and define my own identity without competition or rivalry. I had a lesbian husband who was NOT a wife and nobody ever questioned us. Nobody called her a he but me. We LIVED gender. We didn't talk about it as much. We didn't have the vocabulary that is used these days. It wasn't a better time, but it sure was a time where people were more accepting about the Butch-Femme dynamic. The Present. 2011. The Gender War is on. Big time. I see it online and offline. In all my years of being out, which are many by now, I have never seen so much Femme rivalry and competition on who is more feminine than who, nor have I seen so much judgement surrounding Butch Identity, and who is more masculine than who. This makes me sad, it makes me furious. It has made me very isolated and feel like I am not a part of any community both online or offline. I don't know if I am making a point here. All I want to say is that sometimes change can be good, as long as every single identity is respected. I used to be happy and feel my Femme "pride" as a younger woman, I had my place in my community I didn't have to fight for it even if I was invisible, and now that I am close to my 40's I feel so bad about not being respected as a Femme these days. Misogyny is worse than it has ever been before. I have never been treated so badly by Butches as I am these days, and NO I am definitely not playing victim here or bashing anyone in particular. I am just wishing I was treated like in the past, were being Femme was beautiful and it sure felt wonderful. I hear the same thing from other Femmes I speak to. I am starting a Femme group in my community soon, if only 2 people show up the day of the meeting, then what I am writing here will even make more sense and sadly it will be even more real to me... Anyways...I am not sure if I answered any questions. I am hoping to read more... |
02-10-2011, 07:44 AM | #55 | |
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When I was in my darkest moments in the exploration of my own gender, I talked to him about it. He and I had so much in common regarding our gender experience even though we seem very different from the outside. When I felt least accepted by others, he accepted me. Because he wasn't married to any definitions of femme, nothing I told him about my own experience made him feel uncomfortable or made him question my experience or identity. I've always offered him the same acceptance. During the last 7 years, there's been a steady drumbeat of "I'm trans" though there has been a lot of variation of approach to dealing with the circumstances. Most of the time, I was just an ear, an open door - and he has been the same to me. The other day he thanked me for my "unwavering support." That support was made of listening, hearing, accepting, encouraging, reflecting back. That's it. Relatively few and far between moments over the course of 7 years. I don't think femmes have the ability to change a person's ID, but I do think acceptance and support can be chosen over rejection and judgment. I don't think it's just the job of femmes to accept and support though. I think there are some heterosexist/sexist ideas that filter in from mainstream culture that somehow the feminine partner is the one in charge of the emotional labor or that the feminine group are the ones within the community compelled to shoulder the emotional labor for the group as a whole. hmm this is a little incomplete but work calls.
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02-20-2011, 07:37 PM | #56 |
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I really want to say that as Femmes we are allies to Butches and Transmen. As allies we do contribute in identity I think, at least because we support them.
It has been this way for as long as I can remember. Long is a long time! |
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