Gender Wars - A Femme's Perspective

[Nat]

I disagree with you like 90%.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by adorable

Thank you.

My ID will not help you read my words any more then anyone else's ID helps you read their words. Words themselves help you understand where someone is coming from. Words and who someone is helps you understand perspective.

All people in general have different perspectives based on where they live, how they were raised, what has happened in their lives, who they are partnered with, who they have been partnered with in the past, where they work and in some cases how they fuck.

To say that somehow knowing or understanding my ID will help you read my words doesn't make anymore sense to me then if I said I was a purple goat. In order for my ID to help you read my words we would all have to agree on the same definition of particular IDs which will never happen. If anyone starts saying that Femmes do this and Butches do this - well, that isn't true is it?
So for me people that claim femme or butch (or any other ID) doesn't have anything to do with their perspective on a particular topic.

Someone isn't saying something because they are a certain ID, they are saying something based on the whole of their experiences.

Originally Posted by Nat

I disagree with you like 90%.

I disagree also...

Here is why.

"All people in general have different perspectives based on where they live, how they were raised, what has happened in their lives, who they are partnered with, who they have been partnered with in the past, where they work and in some cases how they fuck."

And ID'ing as Femme, Butch, Trans, a Dyke, a Lesbian, a Man, etc... all are figured out from one's own "soul searching" of course but even that is influenced by what has happened in folks likes and who they are partnered with, what communities they are involved in, what they learned from other Queers, communities, etc.

How I speak and how my words are heard and read are absolutely influenced by how by my Femme identity and how I figured it out...through friends, experiences, communities, whom I dated, etc. BECAUSE I learned and discovered this from all those things.

How you/I/we came to figure out/decide the ID that suits us is a product of living, experience, environment, etc.

So, I'm not sure how those things can be separate. We are products of our lives' experiences.

[Isadora]

I find this whole discussion moot. Obviously people ID differently. We are all complex beings who have many identities. I don't think I like being "pigeonholed" (for lack of a better term) into anyone reading me through a "femme lense" rather than a human lens. Femme to me is PART of many parts of who I am. (I.E. I am fat, I am highly educated, I am of European descent, I am old, I am handicapped, I am...)

The last time I checked, I had no need to make comments on how people ID, just had to accept it. I have been and out femme for over 30 years. I have seen the ebb and wane of ID's that are accepted and not accepted.

Now, I know it is a femme thread, so it makes sense to ask how a participant id's. Once they ID or chose not to ID, I need to move on I do not need to vilify (I know strong word but that is the "feeling" I get from posts) or keep hounding on the same subject because I did not get an answer I liked. "No" or "do not ID as femme" is an answer, whether I like the answer or not. So now with that knowledge I can "read" through my femme lens posts.

Historically, in the 50's and 60's you had to id either b or f in our community, those who ID'd as kiki were kind of shunned or feared. The rigid structures of that culture were questioned and dismissed by some and we had the androgynous lesbian community. Rigidity led to backlash against the b/f community in the 70's where b/f became ridiculed for being "pawns of the patriarchy" and "coping heterosexual relationships". (K, I find it amusing that those same people are now touting for acceptance that we are JUST like heterosexual relationships.) I would hate to go back to that rigid structure.

I am a femme lesbian. I have always been a femme lesbian. I marched my little ass off to say that out loud. What I am reading is two different perspectives. Each is worthwhile, each is legitimate and valued. So to disagree is a natural thing and actually a good thing. I have gotten to the point with somethings to ask without snark or cynicism, "Is it okay to disagree with you?" Because sometimes it seems it is not or at least the question opens up a discussion on the ability to disagree and still honor one another.

I, like Sassy, have huge issues with cultural appropriation of language. To me, a woman can be feminine if she is not queer id'ed but femme is part of the glbt culture. But it is my opinion...

[SuperFemme]

Maybe if the collective *we* spent more time building bridges than we do building fences there would be no Gender Wars?

Because I look around lately and see lots of fences being erected, and they are blocking the bridges.

[Words]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Maybe if the collective *we* spent more time building bridges than we do building fences there would be no Gender Wars?

Because I look around lately and see lots of fences being erected, and they are blocking the bridges.

Absofuckinglutely.

[oblivia]

Originally Posted by Medusa

* As a Femme of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of Butch or Trans IDs?

No, I do not feel any animosity towards any entire groups of IDs of any type (butch, femme, purple-people-eaters). Why would I be angry at a group of people for how they ID? I don't get it.

Within this conversation, I am willing to admit that I do sometimes feel as if there is a great deal of pressure (or at least that there historically has been) from within the queer community to "pick a side". By that, I mean, that there seems to be this ... concept... stereotype.... or expectation (fighting for the right word here...) that if you are femme, you must be a certain 'type' of femme (IE traditionally female, take on traditionally female or feminine roles in your family, relationship, dress and act a certain way, etc) and that if you are butch, you must be a certain 'type' of butch (IE traditionally male, take on traditionally male or masculine roles in your family, relationship, dress, and act in those ways, etc.)

BECAUSE of this pressure that I (speaking from my me-place) perceive, I feel that the lack of a community that really respects ALL the shades of femme and butch equally creates pressure to pick one extreme or another which, and I know I'm asking for trouble here but I want to be honest about my perception, leads to perhaps hastiness and confusion on the masculine 'side' of things that makes figuring out possible transgender/transexual issues even trickier than I presume it already is.

* Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another Femme ID or complicit in a "war" between Butch or Trans IDs?

Absolutely not. I personally can't even wrap my head around how one ID could be threatened by another. Perhaps this conversation will shed some light on that for me and I can develop a greater understanding for others' perspectives here.

* Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group?

Absolutely not. My perspective is that everyone has become fiercely defensive of their own IDs. We all want to be seen and respected and honoured and held at equal 'level' with all the other IDs and when it is perceived that one ID carries more 'weight' than the other or is sort of glorified to a greater degree it makes those that aren't in the 'glorified' category want to go "WAIT! What about me?!!? I'm just as awesome as the rest of you!!"

* As a Femme, do you see a "war" between Femmes of different IDs? Why or why not?

I really can't stand the term war at all, actually, because I don't think that's what is happening.

I think that there is dischord within the femme community and that there is as someone (please forgive my lack of credit here) put - a hierarchy. I get bristly at terms like "high femme" (does that make me a "low femme"?) and get that those are my own sensitivities and issues because I am not a super dress-uppy kinda femme. I dont' wear makeup except on occasion or for a particular purpose. So, that's ME doing my defensive thing about "my femme ID is just as good as your femme ID". So in that way, I think that we do the competitive thing just as I perceive that the butches do the competitive thing.

All that said, though I have to give BIG PROPS to this community because at least here at BFP, this seems so much better than I remember from my old days at the other site - and I bet it's not just the change of scenery but because some time has passed and people like Medusa and Metropolis and others have been HAVING these types of conversations so from someone who has been away for a few years, I can really see the difference and commend this community for it's collective growth. You all rock.

* Do you think that Femmes contribute in any way to the gender or identity formation of Butches or Transmen? How about contributing to the gender formation of Butches of Transmen who Femmes date?

I think that gender and identity-formation is a VERY personal thing and my belief is that even when we think we ARE influencing someone else's ID, we're not. The facts as I see them is that the only way someone else can influence my ID is if I choose to let them - which still makes it my choice and my power, therefore they're not influencing me at all (directly, that is).

* Do you, as a Femme, have a feminine or masculine identity?

I have a feminine identity. I identify as both feminine and female these things are personally important to me with relation to my Femme identity.

* Do you even feel like there is a "Gender War"? Is that an external manifestation of the internal? Do you feel that it is a construct of the larger sexist and misogynist society at work here?

I think that whenever someone or something makes us uncomfortable it is almost ALWAYS an external manifestation of something going on internally. I am defensive of my ID, sometimes too much, and I know that I get very defensive of the "female-ID'd butch" because my Sparx is female-ID'd and some very dear friends (past and present) have been female-ID'd and I've seen the similarities between the perceived hierarchy of the butch side of things (the more masculine you act/seem the more 'butch' you are) and to ME it feels VERY similar to the femme hierarchy of (the more feminine you act/seem the more makeup/girly stuff you wear/do/like etcetc, the more 'femme' you are).

So that is MY personal stuff and I know that when I get frustrated in ID and gender conversations that this certainly colours my perspective and I own that. I'm still working on it, and like I said above, this community as I see it has come a LONG way even in the last few years, from what I can see so far and that seems pretty darn impressive.

I really don't like to speak too much to misogyny and sexism because I dont' know enough about either (from an educated standpoint) to feel like I can hold my own in conversations about this. But i will say one thing and hope it comes out right.

We live in a binary society. That is the reality as I see it. Where I live I have met people who identify as Ze, as It, as Hyr, as She, He, They and a myriad of other genders and identities. But when these same people step outside their queer communities they do not use anything other than she or he - when communicating with people on a professional level. I appreciate that everyone has the right to their ID, but I wonder at how we segregate ourselves and create a community with a rainbow of IDs that we then do not take out into the rest of the world with us. And so I perceive we have two worlds we seem to live in - the segregated queer community where we can be "who we are" which means living by a different set of rules and expecting people in that community to treat you differently than you expect people outside of that community to treat you. I'm not sure how beneficial that is to the greater human community that we live, work, and play in. I'm not sure what we're actually DOING to change anything when we maintain our binary roles in the areas that require the greatest change. This is just my perception

I go to work every single day and I out myself again, and again, and again. I bring my butch wife with me to work events. I answer my coworkers questions when they're confused about why the two of us look different and when they ask questions that 'feel' offensive but that I KNOW is just them seeking understanding and information. Every day, I own my identity 24/7. Whether I am within the queer community, the professional community, or anywhere else, I act the same and expect the same level of respect for who I am and (this is important to me) that means that I am willing to take the time to educate ANYONE in my life who doesn't understand and that means sometimes I get asked questions that are uncomfortable. That means that sometimes someone says something offensive, and I have found that most of the time it's unintentional and that by being willing to listen and not freak out and give them an answer, that I can teach them something, about me and who I am and that people who are "different" than what we call mainstream aren't as scary as one might think. This is how I work to make change in my immediate community and in the places i live and love.

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

I feel really fucking protective of "Femme". As in, when I finally figured out that Femme was the right word to use to describe how I feel about ME, it was like the OMG A-ha moment.

And FOR ME, I feel like FEMME is a Queer denominator.

To people in the world, outside my community, I appear as a straight woman. Even though I work with many Queer folk at my job, no one had any idea I was Queer. One woman who is partnered and I have been work-friends with, was shocked when one day I was talking about Erin and used "she". I out myself everyday. And luckily I work for a company which celebrates diversity.

So, for me, FEMME is how I get to differentiate myself, how I say to the world: "I am Queer. I can look however I want, I don't fit in your stereotypes. I may "appear" as what you call a straight woman, but I AM NOT."

I know that not everyone feels the same as I do. I know there are people out there in the world who are like none of us on the site who use this word to describe themselves. However Femme looks to me is different than you and everyone else in the community. And yet, I find it hard to not care if some random straight woman in Missouri calls herself a Femme. It should make no difference to me since she is not connected to my/your Queer world... but it does.

Yes. This. I totally admit that this is a HUGE thing for me too. Coming to my femme identity was one of the most transformative experiences of my life and I am fiercely protective of it.

[daisyfm]

Great thread Medusa! I thank you.
I haven't been here in a while. I am so glad you started this conversation. It is long overdue both online and in real time. I think. I cannot answer all the questions, but I will say what I feel is going on regarding Gender Wars...
Once upon a time when I came out in the 1990's, Butches opened doors and they opened minds. Femmes loved being Femmes, we also opened minds, we were liked and treated well. I don't remember misogyny at all. Butches were called she or he, or both, it depended on the Butch. Nobody around me ever made a big deal about their pronoun because it was respected and they would tell us what to use. Period. The Older Femmes whom I respected and worshiped, helped me shape and define my own identity without competition or rivalry. I had a lesbian husband who was NOT a wife and nobody ever questioned us. Nobody called her a he but me.
We LIVED gender. We didn't talk about it as much. We didn't have the vocabulary that is used these days. It wasn't a better time, but it sure was a time where people were more accepting about the Butch-Femme dynamic.
The Present. 2011.
The Gender War is on. Big time. I see it online and offline. In all my years of being out, which are many by now, I have never seen so much Femme rivalry and competition on who is more feminine than who, nor have I seen so much judgement surrounding Butch Identity, and who is more masculine than who.
This makes me sad, it makes me furious.
It has made me very isolated and feel like I am not a part of any community both online or offline.
I don't know if I am making a point here.
All I want to say is that sometimes change can be good, as long as every single identity is respected.
I used to be happy and feel my Femme "pride" as a younger woman, I had my place in my community I didn't have to fight for it even if I was invisible, and now that I am close to my 40's I feel so bad about not being respected as a Femme these days.
Misogyny is worse than it has ever been before. I have never been treated so badly by Butches as I am these days, and NO I am definitely not playing victim here or bashing anyone in particular. I am just wishing I was treated like in the past, were being Femme was beautiful and it sure felt wonderful. I hear the same thing from other Femmes I speak to.
I am starting a Femme group in my community soon, if only 2 people show up the day of the meeting, then what I am writing here will even make more sense and sadly it will be even more real to me...
Anyways...I am not sure if I answered any questions.
I am hoping to read more...