Preferences changing during transition

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Esme nha Maire

Dapper, I was already well aware about the great similarities of the clitoris to the penis (SERIOUS science geek, personal interest in the surgery that was done to me, etc.. :-}). Might be news to others that read it here though, so no problem.

Yes, it was actually more for the other readers. I wasn't sure if you knew about the enlarging of the clitoris though. I do think that helps some trans men feel better.

I'm still surpised at the low level of genital dysphoria in MTF's you report, but then that's hardly surprising because I've never experienced the condition you guys have.



Nope, socially internalised didnt come into it. I'm surprised you'd even suggest that - to me it sounds puzzlingly as if you're talking about bodily dysphoria as being due to social brainwashing there, and that is emphatically not the case, as I would imagine you are well aware. The whole point of the process of going through the system at Gender ID clinics was to try to separate those who genuinely had bodily dysphoria from those who had some kind of other problem making them think that maybe they should transition.

It may be that our use of terminology is slightly different though - to me bodily dysphoria rules out all factors external to the individual concerned. Stuff involving external factors is more social dysphoria, to me. I had that as well, sure, but only because the world didn't see me as the woman that I knew myself to be! Contrast that with cases where someone thought that 'maybe' they should have been a woman because they couldn't fit the expectations society has of males. Social dysphoria in both cases, but different things driving it, internal in one case, external in the other.

You are misinterpreting me here. I agree with what you are saying wholeheartedly. It isn't important enough though for me to clarify.
Too, please don't think I was referring to your experience.

Yes, I was offered the choice of having breast implants at the time of my surgery - I declined, as my brain was happy with the level of breast development I had from oestrogen alone. Slightly bigger would've been nicer, but THAT's simply because I'd then have filled out dress tops a bit better and more interestingly; aesthetics, if you will, and I'm hardly the only woman in the world that wished her boobs were a tad different for aesthetic reasons. I think I can live with being normal :-}

Sorry, but I am still none the wiser as to where and how insurance companies enter the picture over there. Based on my admittedly limited understanding of what insurance is and how it works, I cannot conceive of a sane way in which an insurance company would be involved in paying for reassignment surgery as a general thing. There's clearly something about the situation that I fundamentally do not understand (or have not realised) involved. Please don't feel that you have to try to get me to understand though - it's not important to me, I'm merely mildly curious about it.

Right. I was only sharing it with you for conversation's sake...I read your post as being curious about our system. I am fascinated by talking about how different countries handle their citizens with gender dysphoria who desire surgery. This is the reason why I asked about breast implants. Over here they are seen as cosmetic.

I hope that my post clears up where I was "coming from" in my comments. I was talking in generalities.

[Esme nha Maire]

(chuckle) No problem,Dapper. I was under huge stress re college work at the point when I wrote that (just had a very welcome email that's taken a huge weight off my mind!), and not expressing myself well either. Yes, I got that you weren't talking about me in particular, it just struck me that you worded things oddly (IMO), and other readers of what you've said might misinterpret, so I used myself as an example to demonstrate what I meant.

I am mildly curious about the system over there, but only because the weird-sounding insurance thing piqued my curiosity. I gather it's pretty horrible still compared to here. IMO they still aren't great here; I have some knowledge of the current situation due to a former work-colleage (and previous to that aquaintance on the Goth scene as long as 20-25 years ago) transitioning recently.

Apparently once in the system now, things go far easier for folk, but the big problem is getting that first appointment - it's about a couple of years wait just for an initial appointment (in my case, it was a matter of a few months). I suspect this is due to a relatively sudden increase in numbers of folk coming forward with gender-related problems as it's a topic more talked about than it used to be.

So folk are realising younger that there IS help for what ails them, and older affected folk are feeling more able to come forward and ask for the help they've long needed. I advised my friend that under those circumstances, then the sooner they socially reassign, the better, as there is still the requirement to live en femme for a couple of years - might as well get that done whilst waiting for that first appointment!

Did you want to talk about that other issue re MTF trans folk here or elsewhere Dapper?

[Esme nha Maire]

Just a quick additional comment; I woke up fuzzy-headed with a slew of random stuff rattling around my brain when something from my past surfaced and I had a lightbulb moment: Dapper, I wasn't concerned about my lack of breasts until I hit my teens, at which point I became VERY upset that I wasn't devloping/hadn't developed them. And my lack of concern, when breasts did develop under the influence of oestrogen, mirrors the relative lack of concern re genitalia amongst FTMs. I'mthinking aloud here, but..

It's as if the brain is wired so that as long as there is a certain minimum amount of appropriate development in the one area, it doesn't get too upset, whereas too much development in the other makes it very unhappy. Which end causes distress from lack and which from excess is invese between the genders. And as you pointed out, the timing difference between MTFs and FTMs over when distress sets in is down to the 'normal' developmental processes causing problems early in MTF girls and late in FTM guys.

There's a kind of symmetry to that. My inner pattern-recognition geek is satisfied now :-}

Sigh - life. It's all so very complicated! And no user manuals! It's no wonder, given the over-simplistic view of life that was/is thrust at us early on that so many feel confused or distressed unless they are given suitable information or role models to help them understand that things aren't always simple!

There's a kind of symmetry to that

[DapperButch]

Esme nha Maire,

Yes. It is when FTMs start to get breast growth that their distress goes off the charts. Meanwhile, it is the facial hair and muscle mass which triggers MTFs. That is why kids can no longer "hold it in", at adolescence. They just burst at that point.

I have heard many FTMs say they "never thought it would happen to them". They never thought they would menstruate, never thought they would grow breasts. It just didn't "make sense" to them that this would happen, so they assumed they wouldn't. And these are people that didn't know they were "boys"/trans, they just knew they weren't like the other girls, so it didn't make logical sense to them that they would become women. It's amazing how we can twist things around in our brains in order to reduce our emotional distress is amazing.

Originally Posted by Esme nha Maire

It's as if the brain is wired so that as long as there is a certain minimum amount of appropriate development in the one area, it doesn't get too upset, whereas too much development in the other makes it very unhappy. Which end causes distress from lack and which from excess is invese between the genders.

I like this thinking. You are suggesting that perhaps the reason that some FTMs do not have lower dysphoria is because getting top surgery is enough? Or, maybe you weren't saying that directly.

I can also tell you that you sometimes FTMs say that they didn't have lower dysphoria until after they had top surgery. It is like they start to become more conscious of another female part of their body after the most "womanly" thing about them is no longer there to focus on.

[Esme nha Maire]

Dapper, I wouldn't have a clue as to why some FTM's don't get bodily dysphoria regarding their genitals. I was just postulating a hypothesis which has a neat symmetry that makes sense to me!

That's interesting about FTM's thinking it'd never happen to them. I WISHED male bodily changes at puberty wouldn;t happen to me, but I knew absolutely that they would, and worried about it for years before it actually happened.

Regarding the change at one end affecting the perception at the other.. hmmn... there might even by some symmetry in that with MTF's too. The difficulty would in teasing out those who decided to have breast augmentation solely due to their internal feelings about how their body should be from those who did so due to societal pressure on women to look a certain way. I couldn't even begin to guess what proportion when I went through things even had breast augmentation, let alone have any idea as to why. This because my contact with other trans-women was fairly minimal - my membership of a nationwide support group was , for me, purely informational - how to get treatment, what to expect, possible ongoing issues. Medical problem, once sorted, that's it, job done, moving on... (if only life were THAT simple! 8-} ) But one chatted whilst in the waiting area with other patients... (shrugs)