Difference between masculine and male identified?

[Andrew, Jr.]

Blaze, We are like the exact opposite. One who wants and one who wants not. Like driving a car. One wants an SUV and one who wants BMW sedan. Just the cards we were given in life.

Andrew

[Jett]

I'm not "female identified butch" or "male identified butch"... or "masculine identified butch"...

But I am a butch... I am masculine.... I am a female


I just am what I am I guess.

[MainelyButch]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I'm not "female identified butch" or "male identified butch"... or "masculine identified butch"...

But I am a butch... I am masculine.... I am a female


I just am what I am I guess.

Very well said....sometimes this is EXACTLY how I feel!!! I am the sum of both, a female presenting as masculine...BUTCH.

[Darth Denkay]

I appreciate all those who have posted but am not sure I clearly stated my question. Here, let me try again.

Do others feel that a binary is upheld here in that butches are expected to be male or female identified? It seems that is implied in threads regularly and I find that not creating space for some folks.

Thoughts?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by WicketWWarrick

I appreciate all those who have posted but am not sure I clearly stated my question. Here, let me try again.

Do others feel that a binary is upheld here in that butches are expected to be male or female identified? It seems that is implied in threads regularly and I find that not creating space for some folks.

Thoughts?

To answer your question, yes. What to do about it to change others minds, shrugs, maybe we can't. Maybe we just have to live as we are, and not worry how others perceive us. It really doesn't matter at the end of the day, I still look in the mirror and see me, in all my glory.

[Darth Denkay]

You're right Corkey. It doesn't bother me in the sense that it makes me question myself - I know who I am - not male or female identified - but I just find it frustrating to once again facing an implied binary where I don't fit in one of the boxes. In so many ways around here we are careful not to construct binaries that it just surprises me, that's all.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by WicketWWarrick

You're right Corkey. It doesn't bother me in the sense that it makes me question myself - I know who I am - not male or female identified - but I just find it frustrating to once again facing an implied binary where I don't fit in one of the boxes. In so many ways around here we are careful not to construct binaries that it just surprises me, that's all.

I agree with you my friend, so many times I said the same thing, but unless I put it in my profile, folks assumed a whole lot. I'm not particularly happy about having to choose, I'm Human and that should be enough, thing is it isn't. Don't know why and frankly I am tired of fighting about how I express my gender, is it really worth it in the end? For me no it isn't. I'm Me take it or leave it.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by WicketWWarrick

Do others feel that a binary is upheld here in that butches are expected to be male or female identified? It seems that is implied in threads regularly and I find that not creating space for some folks.

Yes, it seems at times that the binary is still the standard, the standard to live and measure our identity. For many years I never thought I was "gender queer." I was a butch. No one ever asked me if I were male or female identified. It felt as though many believed that to be butch was by default a immitation of male. I reject all of this.

Through my own inquiry, thinking and living in my skin, I now know that masculinity is not restricted to cisgendered men or other masculine entities.

I think gender can be primarily a construct. However, I did not realize for most of my life, that I could construct and define my own gender. I identify as a Transmasculine Butch because for me, I cannot label myself a mistake. I am evolving. I was born into a female body because it is a foundational part of who I am. I also choose to move further into a more masculine presentation via surgery and taking T.

I am not content that in the realm of legal recognition I have only two options, male or female. I have the history, hormones, thoughts, experiences of both. Which in my mind makes me "other."

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by WicketWWarrick

I appreciate all those who have posted but am not sure I clearly stated my question. Here, let me try again.

Do others feel that a binary is upheld here in that butches are expected to be male or female identified? It seems that is implied in threads regularly and I find that not creating space for some folks.

Thoughts?

Yes, I do believe that there is an expectation that butches be female-identified or male identified.

Personally, I am not a "female identifed butch" OR a "male identified butch". Subsequently, I identify as a TG Butch. I also do not regard myself as a woman, nor do I see myself as a man. (However, I do regard my sex as female, as that is what I am biologically).

Except for a recent thread on the "dash site" (I love that saying by the way...don't know who came up with it) where the request was made for only female-id'ed butches to post, I have never felt like I didn't have a "place" or didn't fit.

It was the first time that I ever considered or was concerned that butch threads would start to get divided into male id'ed and female id'ed threads. It concerned me for the community (more division) and then I also thought....hey, where the hell will I post? lol

[chefhottie25]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Yes, I do believe that there is an expectation that butches be female-identified or male identified.

Personally, I am not a "female identifed butch" OR a "male identified butch". Subsequently, I identify as a TG Butch. I also do not regard myself as a woman, nor do I see myself as a man. (However, I do regard my sex as female, as that is what I am biologically).

Except for a recent thread on the "dash site" (I love that saying by the way...don't know who came up with it) where the request was made for only female-id'ed butches to post, I have never felt like I didn't have a "place" or didn't fit.

It was the first time that I ever considered or was concerned that butch threads would start to get divided into male id'ed and female id'ed threads. It concerned me for the community (more division) and then I also thought....hey, where the hell will I post? lol

I agree with what you say about not regarding yourself as a woman or a man. I identify as a boi. I am called hy and hym. However, I have no desire to transition...because I am not a man. I also don't identify as a butch of any sort. I feel uncomfortable posting in butch threads. I am not really sure what all this means in terms of my identity and gender. Whatever the confusion...it works for me. I am comfortable and happy being a boi.

[Bootboi]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I'm not "female identified butch" or "male identified butch"... or "masculine identified butch"...

But I am a butch... I am masculine.... I am a female


I just am what I am I guess.

Right on Metro!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I'm not "female identified butch" or "male identified butch"... or "masculine identified butch"...

But I am a butch... I am masculine.... I am a female


I just am what I am I guess.

My butch identity lies within the realm of being a woman. One that is lesbian, masculine and feminine and whose gender stems from masculine energies projected (and formed) from the female (animus). This is how it has always been for me even when I did not identify as butch (or even knew of the term). Consequently, female-identified butch does provide me with an identification that allows for this fluidity. I can't provide an answer for how it applies to others only for myself.

I have never felt that masculine falls exclusively in the domain of men. Nor that femininity falls exclusively in the domain of women. And I feel that the limits of western culture (and language) is what keeps us stuck in the binary. Other cultures (including Native American), do not have this dilemma as they have several terms and descriptors of gender. However, gender theory gives us an opportunity to break through this isolation. For a long time, I could only make sense out of my own gender fluidity and integration through Jungian theory.

I gues, I am what I am, too!

[TIMBERWOLF]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I'm not "female identified butch" or "male identified butch"... or "masculine identified butch"...

But I am a butch... I am masculine.... I am a female


I just am what I am I guess.

Thanks Metro, I guess thats the way I feel too. It wasn't until people and threads were trying to put everyone in a category of male Id or Female Id, well I'm not feminine but am attracted to those that are, I don't always wear boxers and I (WT) just bought a 3 piece women's suit for my job interviews because even as Butch as I am I have to down play it for jobs.I have to shave every day and I don't go by male pronouns . I believe to each their own journey or path to their discovery of who they are,and I wear the strap on in this relationship
TIMBER

[AtLast]

What I am getting the most from this thread right now is about deep hurt around divisive labels/identifications. I don't exactly know why this is just more salient to me in this particular thread (or site), but I just have a much more positive feeling inside about our communication. And this just feels so much better because I want to get past the places where we get stuck so often.

When I think about being butch, it is about a multi-faceted array of constructs. And when I run head-on into the negative stuff I hear at let's say, events like the dyke march during pride (or some other LGB-"TI" event), I become so bewildered. The assumptions about the B-F dynamic and trans-people (including the inter-gendered) along with the B-F dynamic in general remain stuck in what we are talking about. Doesn't matter at all about individual identifications. So much of this has been part of my experience throughout many years now.

I do understand how and why certain identifiers have ended up as terms that can inflame and cause division. I am thinking that developing more sensitivity to this is one way I can at least diffuse some of this. I remember feeling somewhat angry in a thread in the dist site in which I felt I had to keep posting disclaimers concerning TG/I identities to ward off being viewed as anti-trans. My struggle was with needing to claim my female butch identification with pride, but knowing that TG/I friends and a family member also needed my support and for me to just be aware of the other side of the coin.

What I have been experiencing here from many male-identified, TG/I butches (and their partners) feels much more mutually supportive.

Thinking we need a whole lot more of this! I can't see developing more inclusive and positive butch frameworks without sifting out what sets apartmale and masculine. This is just a part of opening one's mind and not depending on stereotypic, or assummed definitions (for me, anyway).

:LGBTQFlag:Hey, maybe we all will gather under this flag once and for all!

[Apocalipstic]

It is great to see this conversation happening with civility and love

[Jett]

I find it very interesting that what I hear consistently is that many (not saying all) butches don't feel the pressure/need to publicly identify as one or the other until entering (mainly online) B-F communities. The only advice I would give to someone who's suddenly finds themselves mulling the "ID's" to try and find a fit... is to look damn close as to who's expectations and definitions you're actually cleaving to and what made you feel like you need to.

Because at what point are we no longer breaking gender stereotypes when we define/label ourselves as XYZ ID'd butches, but rather bowing to the binary stereotype and kissing patriarchal ass-umptions and expectations of the sexes by obediently adhering to their perceived limits/restrictions in what female/male means.

I feel like in turn we're sometimes failing to stronghold the uniqueness, limitlessness and possibilities of just who we are already as butches without needing additional outside affirmation in that context.

Again, just random thoughts...
Metro

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I find it very interesting that what I hear consistently is that many (not saying all) butches don't feel the pressure/need to publicly identify as one or the other until entering (mainly online) B-F communities. The only advice I would give to someone who's suddenly finds themselves mulling the "ID's" to try and find a fit... is to look damn close as to who's expectations and definitions you're actually cleaving to and what made you feel like you need to.

Because at what point are we no longer breaking gender stereotypes when we define/label ourselves as XYZ ID'd butches, but rather bowing to the binary stereotype and kissing patriarchal ass-umptions and expectations of the sexes by obediently adhering to their perceived limits/restrictions in what female/male means.

I feel like in turn we're sometimes failing to stronghold the uniqueness, limitlessness and possibilities of just who we are already as butches without needing additional outside affirmation in that context.

Again, just random thoughts...
Metro

And random wisdom like this that speaks to so much of what I have experienced and I think, bowed to at times. Thoughts about why I have had such differing experiences within the B-F comminity than what I brought along with me as being someone with significant TG friends since the 1960's outside of it. You have hit on something, Metro that has often puzzled (and offended) me just as a human being. I hope this gets explored more in the thread.

[Luckydwg07]

its may just be a style for some and maybe a lucky break to find their niche if they feel comfortable.

no more outside affirmation.. the people you met know you as unique thats the intriguing part

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I find it very interesting that what I hear consistently is that many (not saying all) butches don't feel the pressure/need to publicly identify as one or the other until entering (mainly online) B-F communities. The only advice I would give to someone who's suddenly finds themselves mulling the "ID's" to try and find a fit... is to look damn close as to who's expectations and definitions you're actually cleaving to and what made you feel like you need to.

Because at what point are we no longer breaking gender stereotypes when we define/label ourselves as XYZ ID'd butches, but rather bowing to the binary stereotype and kissing patriarchal ass-umptions and expectations of the sexes by obediently adhering to their perceived limits/restrictions in what female/male means.

I feel like in turn we're sometimes failing to stronghold the uniqueness, limitlessness and possibilities of just who we are already as butches without needing additional outside affirmation in that context.

Again, just random thoughts...
Metro

[Corkey]

I think its great if you don't need any other qualifiers to your ID. Some of us however do, so that we have our place under the sun. It really is good for us to be able to discuss these issues in a safe environment. If the male aspect doesn't fit, don't use it. If it does, you are free to decide for yourself how it effects who you are.
I think because we get to choose for ourselves how we identify, information about gender identity is useful. I'm not giving any credence to "The Man" when I choose to use the male identifier. I'm a guy in a female body who isn't going to transition.
Simple, yes, one would think. How I choose to identify has no bearing on any one else, and frankly it isn't any one else's business how I choose to express that energy.
That's my .02 for the day.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I find it very interesting that what I hear consistently is that many (not saying all) butches don't feel the pressure/need to publicly identify as one or the other until entering (mainly online) B-F communities. The only advice I would give to someone who's suddenly finds themselves mulling the "ID's" to try and find a fit... is to look damn close as to who's expectations and definitions you're actually cleaving to and what made you feel like you need to.

Because at what point are we no longer breaking gender stereotypes when we define/label ourselves as XYZ ID'd butches, but rather bowing to the binary stereotype and kissing patriarchal ass-umptions and expectations of the sexes by obediently adhering to their perceived limits/restrictions in what female/male means.

I feel like in turn we're sometimes failing to stronghold the uniqueness, limitlessness and possibilities of just who we are already as butches without needing additional outside affirmation in that context.

Again, just random thoughts...
Metro

Sometimes I really appreciate your random thoughts. I agree that it is of fundamental importance to examine and break down the role that entering "online B-F communities" plays in self-identification. I did a lot of navel gazing on it myself (and my own navel) when I first got involved online back when Al Gore first invented the internets. I didn't pick my lane and quit then, either. I still continue to evaluate what my identity means to me, both online and in the "real world."

It's not a label for identification and nutritional information purposes. It speaks, instead, to the skin that I live in and how I can most be comfortable in that skin. It harkens back to my childhood, my development, and exactly how I live today. It is challenged by being a parent, a professional, a sibling, and offspring. Still, regardless of pronoun, I remain the same. How others see me usually has no impact on what I see in the mirror, but it took me a long time to recognize the face staring back at me. I say "usually" with intent, because I would be lying if I did not admit that there have been times aplenty that interactions with others has driven me to the mirror, or deep inside myself trying to see what they see, and to see past it again.

You give fantastic advice when you say, "look damn close as to who's expectations and definitions you're actually cleaving to and what made you feel like you need to." Because once we slap on that tag and step out into the world, online or otherwise a whole shit-ton of expectations and other sundry baggage is going to crop up. It certainly didn't occur to me years ago that my male identification was going to mean I would sometimes face accusations of male privilege and misogyny; that I was a creature of the patriarchy as sure as any cis-gendered man. I know myself otherwise, but have come to see - slowly, I admit - how much responsibility I have to ensure that others can see that as well. While they may operate out of assumption, I do feel the onus is on me to be more careful with my actions and words (and I obviously fail at times) to not reinforce those expectations, even if (especially if) unwittingly. In short, I need to be mindful and take care. I have to practice everyday, even when I am cranky, tired, or lazy.

This has potency for me, "the uniqueness, limitlessness and possibilities of just who we are already as butches" and I absolutely want to stronghold that.