Respect of Femme Sensabilities

[rlin]

This title worried me... i dont know what else to name it except for this...
i am posting this here instead of the butch or trans zone because i would like to hear what a femme thinks of this also...
i am in no way implying that the femme persuasion is weak...

i saw this post from the fierce Lady Snow...

So lemme make it clear ok?

You and I, ain't homies, we ain't tight...

So, those kinda of comments, keep em to yourself a'ight?

Thank you for listening. _______

this was said after someone... really off the cuff..... made a remark about balls... just a slang remark... not sexual...

it made me think of the times when i toss out crude remarks in front of folks that just dont wanna hear them...

my mom taught me to respect a lady... let me state that i see a femme as a lady... someone maybe a bit more refined than myself...

i thought when seeing this of how it is ok here... sometimes... to make sexual remarks in certain contexts... we tend to be a very sexual community i think... (thank goddess!)...
however... there are the times like this when we will try to show comradeship with a crude remark...

might as well scratch our asses and spit...
i wouldnt say to a femme 'hey... nice tits'... i wouldnt elbow her and wink when i make a callous comment...
thats just me...
this example made me think of the fact that some of what makes this unacceptable is the fact that we dont really know the person we are saying it to...
(i havent talked to Ms Snow... i have read lots of her words and feel a bit of familiarity to her... i think from seeing her posts that i surely would never talk to her like she was one of the guys...)
but the fact that we can feel like we sorta know someone from reading there thoughts might promote this kind of familiarity... just a thought

what i wanted to put out there was a hint to the 'butch' side of the community to show a little gentility... i would like to see the stereotype of us being crude to go away...
we can still be crude... just lets remember there is a time and a place for it...

ok folks... fire away... i got my protective armor on...
(would that have been crude if i had stated that i was wearing protection?)

with all good intentions,
rlin

[Oneida]

Originally Posted by rlin

i saw this post from the fierce Lady Snow...
this was said after someone... really off the cuff..... made a remark about balls... just a slang remark... not sexual...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
To be fair...and in order to keep clarity from the get-go here...Snow is the one who used/introduced the term "balls' first in her thread. As in, let's take this conversation by the balls or something like that.

The other person came in to the thread, contributed, then agreed with her by using the term again in the same fashion she did. He was then called-out on it (by Snow) and ugliness ensued.

My inclination at this point is to stick to the fluff threads where I witness more authentic acts of kindness among members. My personal opinion is that the lack of progress or solidarity in some of these other, more controversial threads is not because the issues are too great to solve or achieve consensus on...but that the personalities are getting in the way.

Good luck...

[rlin]

i probably didnt say it loud enough in my opener that i am not calling someone out... i do this myself... in no way am i referencing what (whoever... i forgot who it was) was saying.... i am making a comment on the response that was given... whoever said the balls remark was way above board with their answer to this quote...
no... this isnt a call out... this is an attempt by me to find out if i am correct in assuming this falls under the heading that my mamma taught me... to respect women...
and to see if maybe us butch types would stop doing this would we receive a little more respect ourselves...

[rlin]

Originally Posted by Oneida

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
To be fair...and in order to keep clarity from the get-go here...Snow is the one who used/introduced the term "balls' first in her thread. As in, let's take this conversation by the balls or something like that.

i didnt remember this... this makes me want to ask about double standards...
even then tho... i think that it is okay for a femme to say these things... i still think that we should refrain when possible... on principle...

[Oneida]

Originally Posted by rlin

i didnt remember this... this makes me want to ask about double standards...
even then tho... i think that it is okay for a femme to say these things... i still think that we should refrain when possible... on principle...

Agreed...from a personal perspective.

Our methods of communication...the words we choose to use...really demonstrate online so much because online, that's all we have to present who we are.

Have a great day!

[The_Lady_Snow]

I go with intent.....

I read intent in the words, there are some under currents no one knows about nor are you going to know about it.

I don't mind sexual wording, what I do mind is anyone asserting themselves over me, especially when it's a place where people are going to be vulnerable.

Sexual undertones don't hurt me I am no delicate flower, so that's just me.

[waxnrope]

Originally Posted by Oneida

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
To be fair...and in order to keep clarity from the get-go here...Snow is the one who used/introduced the term "balls' first in her thread. As in, let's take this conversation by the balls or something like that.

The other person came in to the thread, contributed, then agreed with her by using the term again in the same fashion she did. He was then called-out on it (by Snow) and ugliness ensued.
I agree with the synopsis of this interaction.

My inclination at this point is to stick to the fluff threads where I witness more authentic acts of kindness among members. My personal opinion is that the lack of progress or solidarity in some of these other, more controversial threads is not because the issues are too great to solve or achieve consensus on...but that the personalities are getting in the way.
and I witness this as well, these personality, meanness, and other unnecessary ways of being in "community."
Good luck...

Originally Posted by rlin

... this is an attempt by me to find out if i am correct in assuming this falls under the heading that my mamma taught me... to respect women...
and to see if maybe us butch types would stop doing this would we receive a little more respect ourselves...

see your next comment, buddy. in some respects, I agree; in others, it is a two way street, ya know?

Originally Posted by rlin

i didnt remember this... this makes me want to ask about double standards...
even then tho... i think that it is okay for a femme to say these things... i still think that we should refrain when possible... on principle...

the examples given above, by Oneida and yourself indicate a double standard ... however, is it possible that Snowy's comment was a general "balls" and the other comment more directed, and personal? I'm going by memory, so don't jump my balls if this is not so, please. I am really trying to understand and not further discontent, but to foster mutuality and compassion for one another ...

Originally Posted by Oneida

Agreed...from a personal perspective.

Our methods of communication...the words we choose to use...really demonstrate online so much because online, that's all we have to present who we are.

well, that says it all, doesn't it.

I am new to online communities. I find that having butch brothers here is intoxicating ... literally. And, in being one of the guys again (it's been a long time for me ... long story and a topic jumper), I slipped into persona, actually forgetting that I am in "mixed" company. I am a joker, as you know rlin, and like to laugh and have fun ... most people do crack up with my comments in rl ... I said something that I thought was in keeping with the THREAD and believed innocuous shortly after first joining this site .. there was no malfeasance intended. what I learned from the backlash is that if one does not KNOW or have an already established relationship with the poster, one must tread lightly ... I know that this may be a "duh" for some of you, but it was a reflective moment for me. I think offense occurs when there is not "relationship" established, and therefore takes on the cloak of double-standard. Don't know if this makes sense or no...

Related, but off topic: It is also difficult to post when you are deemed new, and therefore an "outsider" who needs to be (slowly) accepted before getting a response to your posting. These are reflective lessons for me ... I appreciate and do not resent them. However, I do have difficulty with some of the clique behavior, and a few of the threads which FEEL as though anyone outside of a specific group who posts there is unwanted. One can go back and read pages and see that the same people are primarily the only people who post. So, there is another process which contributes to the feeling or sense of being an "outsider." Audre Lorde, my sister, what would you say to this? Oh boy! too much java. Sorry to go on!

[weatherboi]

Hi everybody!!!

Let's talk about respect and priviledge!!!

I see sexual undertones thrown around this space all the time. I have no problem with it until I see a single butch/guy or femme throwing those remarks towards way of people who are partnered. No offense to any one person, but I see it happen all the time. It can be very subtle or it can be blunt, either way it is rude and disrespectful.

Grant

[Dylan]

Wait...

Snow's a lady?

Insert smiley face here

Rlin, would you have started this thread if a butch had been talking to another butch?

I kinda feel like this is one of those 'reascue the delicate femmes 'cuz they're delicate creatures', and honestly, I've kinda had it lately with the placating to femmes

I just think femmes are quite capable of 'rescuing' themselves

Color Me Jaded,
Dylan...my armor is at the shiners this week

[waxnrope]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I go with intent.....

I read intent in the words, there are some under currents no one knows about nor are you going to know about it.

I don't mind sexual wording, what I do mind is anyone asserting themselves over me, especially when it's a place where people are going to be vulnerable.

Sexual undertones don't hurt me I am no delicate flower, so that's just me.

I understand about "intent", but how can we understand another's intent without inquiry? I don't mean the intent of someone with whom we've had ongoing battles ... personality clashes and the like ... rather, the intent of a hapless "Joe"/"Josephine" who has the temerity to just say something that is unwittingly forbidden or just disliked?

How do we know another's vulnerable places unless we are told ... or we step on or trip over them?

Let me retain my image of you as delicate flower ... and I am not asserting myself "over" you by saying this. I get that you are alpha. You say this about yourself. My leg is not raised at all, so to speak. I am simply using a little bit of humor to lighten the convo... and extending a hand to you.

[JustJo]

Interesting idea rlin, thank you

I can't speak for femmes in general of course, but I will say that - for myself - I simply respond better to the conversation if it isn't crude.

I very rarely cuss (as in, I have to be either incredibly angry or drop a frozen 5 lb. roast on my toe). I also tend to step back from anger, demeaning or belittling behavior, or significant flirting. The flirting is a relatively new one on the list for me. Like waxnrope, I'm still fairly new to this online community thing...and didn't realize that some people take online flirting seriously, while for others it's a game. Kind of a duh moment for me...

I also appreciate what weatherboi said about the difference between single and partnered people. I always respect partnerships, and try to acknowledge them...if I friend one member, I try to friend the other as well. And, I appreciate it when others do the same.

Just to be clear, I'm not a shrinking violet...I bartended for years, and have been married to two sailors. I know the words...and, in a pinch, could probably outcuss most people...I just prefer not to.

[waxnrope]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Wait...

I just think femmes are quite capable of 'rescuing' themselves

Color Me Jaded,
Dylan...my armor is at the shiners this week

funny, this is what the femmes are saying about the butches on the other thread! oh! the irony!!!!! hahahahahaha

[weatherboi]

hi waxnrope,

on the outside i see where you think it may be proper to agree but realize you and Sam walked up into a space where this was stated in post #4 by Snow.

I felt it could be a place for anyone other than butch or transmen to have this convo here instead of AtLastHome's thread...


also here is my issue with your post if we all want to be transparent. your inappropriate play on words. here is what i mean...

I don't think that anyone should, um, handle your arse, Lady Snow. just saying

Snow never implied anything about someone handlingher arse....what she said was she didnt want to get her ass handed to her. total differnece in your play on words and what she meant. it is the exact same thing Sam did as well.

I am wondering if it was a butch or trans person saying this would you approach it in that manner?? cause i find your play on words offensive and gross.

Grant

Originally Posted by waxnrope

see your next comment, buddy. in some respects, I agree; in others, it is a two way street, ya know?

the examples given above, by Oneida and yourself indicate a double standard ... however, is it possible that Snowy's comment was a general "balls" and the other comment more directed, and personal? I'm going by memory, so don't jump my balls if this is not so, please. I am really trying to understand and not further discontent, but to foster mutuality and compassion for one another ...

well, that says it all, doesn't it.

I am new to online communities. I find that having butch brothers here is intoxicating ... literally. And, in being one of the guys again (it's been a long time for me ... long story and a topic jumper), I slipped into persona, actually forgetting that I am in "mixed" company. I am a joker, as you know rlin, and like to laugh and have fun ... most people do crack up with my comments in rl ... I said something that I thought was in keeping with the THREAD and believed innocuous shortly after first joining this site .. there was no malfeasance intended. what I learned from the backlash is that if one does not KNOW or have an already established relationship with the poster, one must tread lightly ... I know that this may be a "duh" for some of you, but it was a reflective moment for me. I think offense occurs when there is not "relationship" established, and therefore takes on the cloak of double-standard. Don't know if this makes sense or no...

Related, but off topic: It is also difficult to post when you are deemed new, and therefore an "outsider" who needs to be (slowly) accepted before getting a response to your posting. These are reflective lessons for me ... I appreciate and do not resent them. However, I do have difficulty with some of the clique behavior, and a few of the threads which FEEL as though anyone outside of a specific group who posts there is unwanted. One can go back and read pages and see that the same people are primarily the only people who post. So, there is another process which contributes to the feeling or sense of being an "outsider." Audre Lorde, my sister, what would you say to this? Oh boy! too much java. Sorry to go on!

[UofMfan]

Threads like these piss me off. They reek of posturing to me.

I was brought up with excellent manners, thank you mom and dad, so I don't understand any of this. I am polite because I was brought up with certain standards that apply to everyone! I like being polite, I don't have to work hard at it, it comes naturally.

The OP, in MY opinion, comes across as saying that femmes are so delicate that they have to be treated a certain way. Treat a femme with decency, like you would treat any other individual worthy of that decency. I seldom agree with Dylan so I am scared shitless that I agree on this, to some degree.

I find that if there is a level of intimacy, certain things are ok with everyone, regardless of gender, id, etc. To me it all boils down to this. How well do I know you?

It really pisses me off to think that just because I id as butch, or male, or fill in the blank _________ I get a free pass to be gross. Not in my book.

The opinions expresses above are mine as a MEMBER of this community.

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by waxnrope

I understand about "intent", but how can we understand another's intent without inquiry? I don't mean the intent of someone with whom we've had ongoing battles ... personality clashes and the like ... rather, the intent of a hapless "Joe"/"Josephine" who has the temerity to just say something that is unwittingly forbidden or just disliked?
the problem lies in the person that stated the comment and them being humble enough to take accountablity for being an asshat. like when i made the mistake of posting in the Tap thread.oy vey did we cause a ruckus. but i took accountablity for being an asshat.

How do we know another's vulnerable places unless we are told ... or we step on or trip over them?

well refrain from saying inappropriate things to people that we dont have that type of relationship with and that will help. humor can be inappropriate also so tread lightly. just because it has a puchline doesnt make it ok to say.

Let me retain my image of you as delicate flower ... and I am not asserting myself "over" you by saying this.
so tell me if she says she is no delicate flower why is it so important to you to keep her in this light for yourself?? does it make you more comfortable when dealing with her?? personally i think it is dismissive to her statement.

I get that you are alpha. You say this about yourself. My leg is not raised at all, so to speak. I am simply using a little bit of humor to lighten the convo... and extending a hand to you.
see this kind of humor i don't find funny and try to steer clear of when approaching a person that i dont know. just a rule of respect to others i follow.

waxnrope i apologize in advance if you take me as harsh but i do see a double standard but it isnt in what Snow did or said...it is in all the reactions surrounding her handling of Sam.

[The_Lady_Snow]

How about someone ask fucking Snow how she wants to be seen, and not just fucking assume..

I am NOT a fucking flower.

I use profanity

watch

FUCK FUCK FUCK

Damn

My fucking answers to Sam were not about my delicate state, I thought I was fucking clear when I handled it..

For fucks sake, I can't fucking believe that is all anyone got from the thread I started

UNFUCKING believeable.

[waxnrope]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

hi waxnrope,

on the outside i see where you think it may be proper to agree but realize you and Sam walked up into a space where this was stated in post #4 by Snow.

I felt it could be a place for anyone other than butch or transmen to have this convo here instead of AtLastHome's thread...


also here is my issue with your post if we all want to be transparent. your inappropriate play on words. here is what i mean...

I don't think that anyone should, um, handle your arse, Lady Snow. just saying

Snow never implied anything about someone handlingher arse....what she said was she didnt want to get her ass handed to her. total differnece in your play on words and what she meant. it is the exact same thing Sam did as well.

I am wondering if it was a butch or trans person saying this would you approach it in that manner?? cause i find your play on words offensive and gross.

Grant

With re to the handling arse statement, I can see that, in pointing this out, that it is as you say, gross. My apologies to Lady Snow ... my humor was out of line. I have no difficulties with apologies. Just so you know. Nor do I have a problem with your corrective comment. The other issues, I'll need to think about (I'm in a hurry to leave, but wish to make my apology about that statement clear)

[waxnrope]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

How about someone ask fucking Snow how she wants to be seen, and not just fucking assume..

I am NOT a fucking flower.

I use profanity

watch

FUCK FUCK FUCK

Damn

My fucking answers to Sam were not about my delicate state, I thought I was fucking clear when I handled it..

For fucks sake, I can't fucking believe that is all anyone got from the thread I started

UNFUCKING believeable.

this is not all that I got from your thread, Lady Snow. I have sent you messages on your rep that indicate this. the flower was a joke and I did not/do not find it something offensive, but used it as a bit of irony, a turn of what you have stated about yourself. I do not know if I can explain it better. It was NOT intended to hurt you or make you angry. To the contrary, it was to make you shake your head and grin. Sorry that it did not do that and you are frustrated about it. As you said in your post, it is intention, and you apparently saw mal intent where none was intended.

[Jett]

Despite you apparently good intention, ironically threads like these create an image in peeps heads that butches are all spit and ball scratching and need to be told how to behave in front of "the ladies" and femmes need a butch to speak up for them.

Seriously I already know how to interact with folks, femme, butch or transpeople, het people... any people. Shit I've never even read the TOS on sites because at this point in life hopefully we know where the hell the lines are (I did read the TOS here coming on as a mod of course).

*doesn't go around woot-wooting at womens asses, or head butting my buddies while burping the alphabet real life either*
Metro

[UofMfan]

MODERATING:

I can see this thread is heading in the direction I was afraid it would head.

I am about to close down this thread as it has turned out to be a personal vendetta, just like I saw it form the get go.


People, if you have personal issues to iron out, please do so PRIVATELY, do not use threads to get throw in those jabs and think it is going to go under the radar, It isn't!