Cause & Affect: A Femme's Influence On The Friendships Between Butches and Transmen

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by blush

Lady Snow, I pulled this from the front page of the thread. Did we open this convo up and I missed it?

And yes, I'm feeling a tad snotty about it, esp. since this thread was an offshoot of another thread and moved so we wouldn't disrupt the other thread. Now all of y'all butches and transmen are up in here!

If I'm wrong, I'll eat some crow and apologize. Maybe.

I would like to say that I'm wondering the same thing. Not that I don't appreciate the other side but I really thought this was about femmes discussing this and letting butches have their say in another thread.

[The_Lady_Snow]

My apologies for just getting to this my cousin died, my gfather is dying, SF is in the hospital, a kid turned 10, Grant keeps distracting me with unmarked flesh, and our Pride is this weekend...

Originally Posted by blush

Lady Snow, I pulled this from the front page of the thread. Did we open this convo up and I missed it?

And yes, I'm feeling a tad snotty about it, esp. since this thread was an offshoot of another thread and moved so we wouldn't disrupt the other thread. Now all of y'all butches and transmen are up in here!

If I'm wrong, I'll eat some crow and apologize. Maybe.

Here was my intent, I thought it was going to be a good idea to have this here, a place where femme's could talk about it.

Here is why:

I love how we communicate.

I love how no matter how hard shit gets in our convos we do it and do it with passion.

I thought after watching a post go up in ALH's thread( having nothing to do with the convo) putting this thread here was a good idea.

I thought when I said we (femme's) could talk about it, it was not going to cast blame on one specific gender, I thought the space would be respected (post #2) obviously proved me wrong.

I thought well I don't care who participates cause by then (after post 2) the space was already different than my very well clear intent.

I thought we could learn from this I feel we have.

Originally Posted by firie

Were you meaning that the intent of the thread was to talk about how femmes influence the friendships (or lack thereof, perhaps) between "Butches and Transmen?" That femmes, and your caviat later, that anyone "other than butch or transmen" could contemplate how that influence occurs?

I am reading you to mean that you want people who are not "butch or transmen" to recognize how they impact this friendship or perhaps lack thereof?

That you are asking for some owning up to by femmes, primarily, as the title of the thread suggests in how they impact this relationship?

And not to say that "butches or transmen" can't comment on something that very obviously impacts them?

Or am I confused?

That's not really for only femmes to comment on, right?

I mean it would seem privileged of femmes to lock the subject matter out, given that this is something that impacts the subject matter, and particularly in very stressful and tension-filled, and sometimes oppressive ways, it seems. Why wouldn't those folks have a right to comment in response to this experience, especially if privileged assumptions were being made, say as in, "femmes are the most supportive people around when it comes to this relationship! because we love all you guys (nevermind the lazy default there, ya know?).

Isn't that why you specifically kept it out of the femme zone because it is much bigger than just what a femme will confess to another femme in this regard, but instead being accountable for our actions, and thus the residual impact of those actions, say like being lazy with pronouns?

Am I getting you or no?

At this point Ms firie, this thread can stay full of butches, femme's trans guys, monkeys, snakes, or any other thing that gives valuable in put, or not. I learned something, and well I knew better.

Don't start a thread.

Stick to saving

It's just clearly simple, we are grown as folk, respect eachother's identifications, personal space, their boundaries..

This is shit we should of learned back in Kindergarden..

Once again I thought ATH's thread could be left to those particular community member so that some friendships can be built.

Privilege me?

*laughs*

Wanna hang out with me for a week? I am not all that privileged.

Originally Posted by Arwen

I would like to say that I'm wondering the same thing. Not that I don't appreciate the other side but I really thought this was about femmes discussing this and letting butches have their say in another thread.

See above posting to Ms blush Ms ArweN...

I honestly got all bleh, after having to defend my right to draw boundaries..

I mean if that isn't ironic I don't know what is...

[Dylan]

I had no idea this was. Intended to be a femme only space. It was in the 'community' area and not the Femme Zone'. Truly had no idea it was for femmes only to talk about how they cause/affect communication/friendships/whatever between butches and men.

Would have respected the space had I known

I'm kind of confused about how people can have a conversation about their affect on a group to which they don't belong...as that to me seems rather privileged (which is what I *think* Firie was saying), because how would the people outside the group know what the issues are, but ok.

My apologies for invading


Dylan

P.S. hope things get better soon, Snow...cyberhugs

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I had no idea this was. Intended to be a femme only space. It was in the 'community' area and not the Femme Zone'. Truly had no idea it was for femmes only to talk about how they cause/affect communication/friendships/whatever between butches and men.

Would have respected the space had I known

I'm kind of confused about how people can have a conversation about their affect on a group to which they don't belong...as that to me seems rather privileged (which is what I *think* Firie was saying), because how would the people outside the group know what the issues are, but ok.

My apologies for invading


Dylan

P.S. hope things get better soon, Snow...cyberhugs

Hence why I made the post about Metropolis community thread, I chose the wrong wording, my intent wasn't clear, and the space I put this in.

I should of thought it thoroughly.

Though I do have to at this point, this far into the thread, it's an everyone voice and it's been working, or we can have Linus yet again put it elsewhere so everyone is happy.

I for one, am signing out for the day I have bigger issues.

[firie]

Snow,

I wasn't saying you were priviliged. No, I apologize if it seemed that way!

I am sorry you are dealing with so much, so I'll keep this short, as you are in our thoughts, as is Super Femme.

Thanks for responding, truly.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

No really.

Do you know what I am talking about?

There will be a subject/space and all of a sudden a Femme will start speaking and/or translating for a butch/trans person.

Telling the rest of the thread what the butch/trans person really meant and what they intended to say.

I find it very strange when this happens, because there seems to be a lot of gratitude.

In fact I feel kind of shitty for speaking about it right now.

Like my pompoms are gonna burn.

Sweet Baby Jeesus, I do this. Not often, thankfully, but I have done it in the past. I can't think of any recent times. Perhaps I'm growing up or maybe mellowing with the passing of another birthday.

I know that I am definitely protective of those I love and like a lot. I sometimes have to bite my tongue to not speak out in support of them. I try not to talk for another but if I see someone is not getting "it" and I do, then I may try to clarify. I'm getting better at doing this from my perspective, and that's definitely a good thing.

I've read the whole thread and everything I've wanted to touch on has already been highlighted, so I will try not to be redundant.

What I got out of something amiyesiam said was this: we all influence one another and I believe that to be true. One pebble, dropped into a pond, sends ripples all the way out to the farther edges of the water line on all sides.

One pebble. One person. One moment. One word.

One.

We are all connected and the sooner we realize it and figure out how to work with it, we can strengthen ourselves and our relationships with others.

Your pom poms are fine, beautiful. Just get better.

[AtLast]

I have had unfortunate situations in which a butch/trans friendships have been very stressed (and even lost) due to a butch/trans friend seeing a femme that doesn't care for me (I know, weird, huh- it happens).

On one hand, I get it in terms of the nature of relationships and what battles we all choose to fight or not with partners. On the other side, when I have been in this situation with a partner/someone I am dating, I am clear that my friends are my friends and I will be loyal to them. Of course, whenever we enter a relationship, there are shifts in time availability, etc. so usually there is a change in the time I spend with the friends I relate to outside of the relationship, but I don't cut them off.

I don't know if this is true for many butches/transmen, but I find it hard to make good friendships with other butches/transmen, often. So, when I do, it matters a lot to me.

There are issues I have run into with femme friends too when they start to see someone, but I think there are different variables at work there- and it isn't the topic of the thread.

To be honest, since I have joined the B-F dynamic fully (wasn’t so for many years), I have found thought that there is quite a bit of interference with friendships all the way around within the dynamic. It has not felt the same as it was in my more lesbian-only days or as a heterosexual in a couple or dating. Have no idea why this is so- and I in now ay know am generalizing about this- just speaking from my own experience. Jealousy has seemed to be much more prominent to me. None of this has felt good at all and I keep trying to figure it out. I am a boundary motivated person, always have been. I don’t cross them, especially romantically. Why? I have seen the adage “if she cheats with you, she will cheat on you” happen around me far too many times! No drama. please! Obviously, I am from the monogamous variety, not everyone is, so this could play out quite differently for other people.

I have never experienced a femme speaking for me as some posters have talked about. not even in the very long-term relationships I have been in. But, both of these women were fairly reserved, so that might have something to do with it. Although, both were good conversationalists and had huge knowledge bases to draw conversation from. Then there is just the usual kinds of things around how we all may feel more or less comfortable at certain gatherings, etc. and who we are around that influences how much we engage.

maybe I am not seeing things clearly, dunno.