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#1 |
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![]() ![]() There are so many ramifications for not medically transitioning. It might be less complicated legally--not having to change paperwork, etc--but oh my, it seems to be so hard on guys who present male and have female ID!! I've known a couple who had a hell of a time with things like medical care and job interviews. Less complicated doesn't mean easy, at all. |
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#2 |
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Thanks for the thread Linus. I am a guy who has done everything possible, but go on T. I can't because of neurological health problems I have. No doctor will ever give me that rx. The biggest fear they have is that it will raise my bp and cause more problems for me. Those who have met me know I am slow. And writing I am slow you think one thing, but when you meet me, you finally realize what it really truely means. My reality is very different than most.
It brings tears to my eyes knowing that my life will never be complete. Never. To have the mind, body, soul connection is truely a blessing. Namaste, Andrew |
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#3 |
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One of the reasons why Blue is my hero is that Hy has chosen to not transition in spite of the obvious advantages of doing so. Yes, Hy is on T, yes, Hy hopes to eventually have top surgery, in both cases, because Hy wants to 'masculinize'. BUT, Hy has no intention of ever IDing as male because Hy isn't male and is happy to live forever in TG (third gendered) land, even if doing that means constantly having to 'explain' Hymself.
That, to me, takes a lot of courage and I am extremely proud of Hym. Words |
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#4 | |
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It takes a lot of heart and bravery to do/be many things, including, but not exclusively, "to move forward to present as male." It takes a lot of fortitude to simply be an out homosexual/queer of any stripe. It takes a lot of spine to be a masculine presenting female - butch - in a world with narrowly defined parameters of what it means to be female. It takes a lot of energy to be a male identified butch, or non-medically transitioned FTM and have to endure the tossing under the bus (of male privilege) by other butches. It takes a lot of strength to be femme in a community that is constantly talking about butch, FTM and other masculine identities, which repeatedly places femme in merely a supporting role, and which questions their inclusion in this community when they choose male id'ed or FTM as partners.
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#5 | |
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I appreciate the thoughts and do recognize the challenges that other groups have but perhaps that discussion might serve better in another thread?
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#6 | |
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I'm always proud of Butches and Transmen, however they choose to live, whether they're making the best of barriers they simply cannot cross or whether they're blazing trails into new territory. I think life is sometimes so much more difficult than it should be for those whose very existence calls society's shallow gender norms into question, because when you shine the light through the surface and expose the deeper implications of easy gender IDs, most people seem to get really uncomfortable. I think that's a big part of the pain so many guys have when they need to transition, need to be in all ways men, and are kept from it for whatever reason. Society insists on forcing them (even kicking and screaming!) back into that tiny shoebox labeled "woman, feminine" and I think it does violence to their souls to be erased so completely, rendered so deliberately invisible. |
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#7 | |
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#8 |
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I love reading this thread.
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#9 | |
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Although I agree with everything you've said here, I also fully understand why Linus has started this thread and see it not as an attempt to negate the suffering of other groups but to lend support to a particular group. A group that's, after all, as deserving of support and a 'safe space' of their own as any other. Right? Words |
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#10 |
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![]() Lets face it, life IS hard at times!! I've ID'd as male for years now. I know that I'm NOT male, but in my heart of hearts there's something that makes me feel that I'm more male than female. So far I have not transitioned because while I'd like some of the male characteristics to be more pronounced in myself, I don't particularly want others. It's a very difficult decision and a fine line between accepting ourselves as we are, and remaking ourselves into what we think we are, want to be, or invision ourself as, etc. Right now I'm on a huge weight loss kick, and may or may not have top surgery after losing the weight I want to lose. Bascially it all depends on finances honestly. I would most definitely like to be a breastless butch, no doubt about it. Whether or not its feasible is an entirely different story though. I continue to call myself a butch because visually that's what I am, and even though I feel more male or masculine than not, I'm still a butch at this point. It really feels like a mixed up, jumbled up group of IDs at times, but it's who I am, and well, take me or leave me ![]() Just my 2 cents at the moment ![]()
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#11 | ||
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I unequivocally, and intentionally, stated that I believed Linus was making no attempt to negate the "suffering" (though I take umbrage at that word) of other groups. Nor was my intent to engage in any further discussion on the matter, merely to state my thoughts as inspired by Linus' words. Thinking inclusively sometimes helps us from becoming myopic. As an aside, Words, it's my opinion that you and your femme voice, are not "interjecting," but participating.
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#12 | |
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I appreciate this post as it gets to areas that I feel just get side-lined in terms of female masculinity. I also feel that the 3rd Gendered get lumped into transgendered identities. Third-genered individuals are not transgendered and going to transition out of a specific gender composite that is just fine as it is and not on (or desiring to be) on T, not interested in any gendered surgical procedures (although, as Words points out, many desire top surgery). Third- gendered people embrace the female gender identification (may or may not use hy, hym, etc. and are comfortable with themselves as is). Their sexuality may be or not be lesbian. And they are not inter-gendered. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that transgendered theory and studies have advanced acceptance of the full spectrum of gender identities. However, the 3rd-gendered really don't belong within the classification of transgendered and remain proudly female. Yet, are constantly shoved into trans status. Diversity within diversity can be a lonely and misunderstood place to be. ![]() Last edited by AtLast; 03-04-2010 at 02:12 PM. Reason: a goof here and there |
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#13 | |
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I think many of us here share similar ideas but we just go down different paths to come to the same or similar beliefs, ideas. I hope you take this post in the spirit of which it is meant to be. Only a difference of opinion. Not a mean spirited calling out.
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( I tried to add this to my above post but the thought came to me after the 30 minute period of time to edit.)
In my thinking one does not have to take T or have surgeries to be Transgender. If you challenge, trangress, break out of the box of what the dominate culture says is how a particular gender is expressed then you come under the umbrella of Transgender. To be Trangender does not necessarily imply you are no longer a woman. To me it implies you are not restricting your expression of your gender to the assigned box. This sort of thinking does stretch or break the belief in the binary. Sorry if I am not articulating this in a comprehensive and linear manner. I am thinking with my finger tips on the keyboard.
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At Last,
Your post was in reference to Word's post who stated that Blue identifies as third-gendered. You stated: "Third-genered (sic) individuals are not transgendered and going to transition out of a specific gender composite that is just fine as it is and not on (or desiring to be) on T" You also stated that third gendered people are "not interested in any gendered surgical procedures (although you do say some desire top surgery--but this IS a major surgical procedure that is considered a gendered one)....and are "comfortable with themselves as is." [Bold Emphasis mine] ----------------------------- However, Word's post regarding Blue--who identifies as third-gendered--seems to contradict your definition and perception of this term. Blue is taking T, is desirous of top surgery and refers to hymself in a way other than with female pronouns seems to undercut what YOUR definition of being third gendered is--there does seem steps of transition taken to, as Word's puts it, "masculinize" -- despite Blue not identifying as male. Isn't the example of Blue a bit at odds with what your definition of third-gendered is? I have no issue with Blue's identification at all; however, it doesn't appear that Blue even falls under what your interpretation of third-gendered is. I also don't understand how you get to decide that being third gendered is not also considered transgendered -- for some (not to mention the medical establishment). Finally, I don't understand you positing that all people who consider themselves transgendered DO take steps to transition. Many don't and some may take some steps but not others. |
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#16 | |
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Actually, we are in agreement as to the fluidity of gender as well as differing modifications one might want to (or not) made. And there is the semantics tangle, too. I would use transcend rather than transgress or transition. Transsexual means this to me as well. Transcending (going beyond) the traditional gender binary. For me, within a 3rd gendered context, it is about this for many of us. What I feel happens often is that the 3rd gendered are lumped into some form of transition when that is not what is going on at all. Transgender theory/studies (along withTranssexuality constructs) seems like something that can promote understanding and hopefully, enlightenment. Especially for kids that fall somewhere on the gender spectrum and not within the traditional gender binary. In thinking about body modification, hormone treatment and gender reassignment of birth records and name changes, I feel like this is as diverse as the individuals embarking on some or all of these journeys. I have listened both professionally and as a friend to these personal stories for 35 years now. I honestly can't say that I could put any kind of these thoughts into any kind of specific grouping. All are different in significant and personal ways. Something that occurs to me as well is about butches that desire or have top surgery done and it really not being different overall than why women have done cosmetic breast surgery forever - whether its reduction or augmentation. It seems like it is simply about personal body alignment. Sure, for many, it is part of transitioning in some form than other people identifying along the gender spectrum. Something else that comes up for me related to all of this is the almost non-existant conversations about MtF's. But, I guess this is for another thread! Just feels like we don't embrace the significance in gender theory of feminine transcendance in re-shaping the binary. There are lots of these same gender variables that relates to femmes as well. To me, it touches everyone. Make sense? Gender is both complex and fascinating and sometimes I wonder if I will ever have a complete understanding of it! Also, I have to wonder if some of my sensitivity about the 3rd-gendered being relegated to trans status isn't more deeply related to my own negative dealings with non-queer lesbians that are transphopic and not related to this community at all. Post Script- glad to see the actual definitions concerning gender posted! |
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I think the notion that perhaps some of your thinking could be related to some transphobic stuff is a very brave statement to make. Yet, shows you are open to thinking, exploring, learning, relearning. Thanks.
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