Open Letter: Dear Femme

[Bit]

Dear Sister Femme,

{{{{{{{{{{{{Julie}}}}}}}}}}}}} Thank you. And I love you, too.

You've articulated it perfectly. I haven't seen the accusations but then, I haven't been part of the debates... this time. I have certainly seen the accusations time and time again during past discussions.

I think that you've articulated the split very well, between those who feel challenged and those who feel unseen. What we see, standing on the outside, is that it is NOT an "either/or" situation but a "both/and" situation; but there doesn't seem any way to say so without being seen as unsupportive.

It's hard to be in the middle this way. It's hard to speak without that reservation, to stop censoring the self and simply talk.

I've spent so many years thinking always of the meaning that will be given to my words, the intent that will be assumed, that I don't honestly know if I am able to simply speak without considering others first.

That's a rather daunting thought,
Cathie

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Bit

Dear Sister Femme,

{{{{{{{{{{{{Julie}}}}}}}}}}}}} Thank you. And I love you, too.

You've articulated it perfectly. I haven't seen the accusations but then, I haven't been part of the debates... this time. I have certainly seen the accusations time and time again during past discussions.

I think that you've articulated the split very well, between those who feel challenged and those who feel unseen. What we see, standing on the outside, is that it is NOT an "either/or" situation but a "both/and" situation; but there doesn't seem any way to say so without being seen as unsupportive.

It's hard to be in the middle this way. It's hard to speak without that reservation, to stop censoring the self and simply talk.

I've spent so many years thinking always of the meaning that will be given to my words, the intent that will be assumed, that I don't honestly know if I am able to simply speak without considering others first.

That's a rather daunting thought,
Cathie

Lovely Bit,

Given that we are primarily socialized to think of others first, to literally seat ourselves last, it is no wonder we have this difficulty when it comes to times like these.

A couple of years ago I was meeting a beautiful girl friend of mine for drinks. She lived in another state and we hardly ever got to see one another. The entire time we were trying to catch up, however, men in the bar/restaurant, and one in particular, were/was interrupting us, attempting to dominate the conversation for attention. Both of us being the very Southern and feminine women that we are continued to smile wanly but permit them.

Finally, I'd had enough.

I said to the most frequent of these men (I interrupted him, in fact):

"Listen, we have been socialized and conditioned all of our sweet little lives to permit you to take up our space. To interrupt us. We're done with that business. Get lost."

I actually felt terribly guilty for possibly having hurt his feelings. And my friend did too. But we both laughed each time a man approached that I held up my hand and said, "No, back!"

I'm a little bit almost finally able to do that. To just say what I think. To go, No, back! whenever I need to and not worry about "his" feelings. Because I have allowed mine to be just as important.

[Bit]

Dear Femme Poodle,

Once you took her off ignore--you're cracking me up! And that's one of the things I love about you, that sense of humor and wry acknowledgment that go hand in leash, so to speak.

I think, actually, that a sense of humor like that might be a hallmark of Femmes... have you found it to be so? I know in me it's a response to The Life Invisible, but even more a response to The Life Queer... We are all of us beings of strength and will, dealing with a world that tries hard to marginalize us and make us disappear.

I hear you and I see you,
Cathie

[little man]

i can learn (and unlearn) here.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by little man

i can learn (and unlearn) here.

Dear Wil,

You have long been one of our best and greatest allies.

Your sincerity and deep consideration are unmatched.

I have so much gratitude for You.

Love,

e

[SuperFemme]

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?

Yes, I absolutely own and allow that I am guilty. But again, I am seeing this as "masculine-centric" rather than simply male-centric. When we call it male-centric, we're throwing our transguys and male-id'd fellas under the bus, and it's also patently unfair because of the ways that butch women, i.e., masculine females, inherently dominate our spaces as well. Don't misread me, although I may have seemed to have a certain "side" in these debates, I do not have a "side" for/against anyone. I Love ALL of These Groups. I literally and motherfucking do.

But here are the ways I see me playing into the masculine-centrism:

- I am always on the ready to call out transphobia (usually in the form of transguyphobia) or to speak up for the way that female id'd butches are not being seen (bc I have also done this), but am less likely to call out ways that I may see femmes being denigrated.

Usually it is because I either wait for someone else to weigh in on the subject, or because I actually believe that what a particular femme has done is distasteful and does not speak to Me, Julie, This Femme. Well, so motherfucking what?

Yes, I am sometimes guilty of judging other femmes harshly.

For example, if a femme posts in a certain font (pink) and is always serving up virtual cupcakes and tea, I am less likely (read: not at all) to listen to what she has to say. I WILL skip over her. And not because the font is hard to read (it is) but because it is "too girly" and that reads as "too ridiculous."

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by evolveme

Yes, I absolutely own and allow that I am guilty. But again, I am seeing this as "masculine-centric" rather than simply male-centric. When we call it male-centric, we're throwing our transguys and male-id'd fellas under the bus, and it's also patently unfair because of the ways that butch women, i.e., masculine females, inherently dominate our spaces as well. Don't misread me, although I may have seemed to have a certain "side" in these debates, I do not have a "side" for/against anyone. I Love ALL of These Groups. I literally and motherfucking do.

But here are the ways I see me playing into the masculine-centrism:

- I am always on the ready to call out transphobia (usually in the form of transguyphobia) or to speak up for the way that female id'd butches are not being seen (bc I have also done this), but am less likely to call out ways that I may see femmes being denigrated.

Usually it is because I either wait for someone else to weigh in on the subject, or because I actually believe that what a particular femme has done is distasteful and does not speak to Me, Julie, This Femme. Well, so motherfucking what?

Yes, I am sometimes guilty of judging other femmes harshly.

For example, if a femme posts in a certain font (pink) and is always serving up virtual cupcakes and tea, I am less likely (read: not at all) to listen to what she has to say. I WILL skip over her. And not because the font is hard to read (it is) but because it is "too girly" and that reads as "too ridiculous."

My mind was thinking masculine centric and I typed male. I have to ponder that. I apologize.

The tea serving, maribou slipper wearing posts bother me because I feel they feed into the pleasing of the masculine.

It feels nonsensical and frustrating because to *Me* Femmes are a stand alone force worthy of so much more than an accoutrement.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by evolveme

Yes, I am sometimes guilty of judging other femmes harshly.

For example, if a femme posts in a certain font (pink) and is always serving up virtual cupcakes and tea, I am less likely (read: not at all) to listen to what she has to say. I WILL skip over her. And not because the font is hard to read (it is) but because it is "too girly" and that reads as "too ridiculous."

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

The tea serving, maribou slipper wearing posts bother me because I feel they feed into the pleasing of the masculine.

Okay, this one and then I think I'm done.... at least till after ...

Yes, it's hard to read some of the lighter colored fonts. Yes, some of those posts are way WAY girly. BUT they aren't girly in service of the masculine, they're girly as an expression of the Femmes who write them.... the girliness isn't imposed from the outside, it wells up from the inside.

And yes, there are brains behind some of that girliness that pretty much never speak an analytical thought--out loud. Doesn't mean they don't think those thoughts. I've been privileged to have sometimes read them--they're just as sharp as the rest of us.

Whether that kind of post feeds into the pleasing of the masculine.... that's trickier. I think it does, but I don't think that's the reason for the posting style... I suspect those who love girly posts would post that way if---the heavens forfend!!--there were no Butches at all, because it wells up from inside the Femmes like water from an artesian spring.

And now, indeed, before she drives me insane, lol....

[Bit]

Originally Posted by evolveme

But again, I am seeing this as "masculine-centric" rather than simply male-centric. When we call it male-centric, we're throwing our transguys and male-id'd fellas under the bus, and it's also patently unfair because of the ways that butch women, i.e., masculine females, inherently dominate our spaces as well.

I understand your point here, but the judgment I have endured from other Femmes has centered around "male-centric" rather than "masculine-centric."

It is true that I will defer to any Butch, of any ID. I always check myself and my thoughts before I post to be certain I am not offending anyone, hitting any trigger phrases, pushing any hot buttons, forgetting to hedge myself about with obligatory disclaimers... lord love a duck, it gets tiring and I mostly just don't post, yanno? I mostly just don't post.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

In reading e and Bit's posts I had a thought.

Is the expected demur and polite veneer used as a way to silence us?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Bit

.......unless, of course, they are people I care about. That's the rub, eh? Because I care about Butches and Transmen... it's one thing to stop being unnecessarily polite to strangers. It's another to stop caring about Butches and Transmen..............

..............you caught that, I'm sure. I caught it as the thought came out of my head. Since when does politeness equal caring? Am I required to be self-effacing enough to accept any kind of intrusion, simply to be seen as caring? Am I required to seat myself last at the table (I can hear half the world's Butches cringing, lol, can't you?) simply to be considered properly supportive?

Originally Posted by Bit

I say there is enough attention and recognition to go around. Both male and female identified Butches are valuable members of our community and deserve recognition--just as Transmen are valued and deserve recognition.

But what has happened is that in actual practice, no one hears me. From being a strong, deeply thoughtful, analytical, articulate, and valued ally of all three groups, I have been reduced to a caricature of unthinking prejudice--and so I am silenced.

Originally Posted by Bit

It is true that I will defer to any Butch, of any ID. I always check myself and my thoughts before I post to be certain I am not offending anyone, hitting any trigger phrases, pushing any hot buttons, forgetting to hedge myself about with obligatory disclaimers... lord love a duck, it gets tiring and I mostly just don't post, yanno? I mostly just don't post.

Cath, whom I adore, I've selected pieces from a few of your posts that speak to the same thing. Namely, how you see yourself deferring to butches and transmasculine others always. How you appear more concerned with their comfort than your own. How your need to do this has left you feeling silenced and misunderstood.

When reading these posts, what kept occurring to me was your need to speak of the masculine other in this thread, which is a Call to Femme, to You.

It is about You. It is about what is beautiful and powerful and autonomous in You.

I have seen the ways that we have disallowed ourselves.

Here, I want to see us naming and seeing ourselves. And one another.

Don't misunderstand, I also want to talk about the ways that we are met with masculine-centrism and how we have handled it, as much as how we might choose to handle it in the future, but if I see that you are focusing over-much on the masculine, I'm just going to remind you -gently- of You.

Because, you know, it's You who just fucking rocks my socks.

It's You whom I have admired most.

It's You who have been my unofficial mentors.

It's You I think of as my friends.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by Bit

I understand your point here, but the judgment I have endured from other Femmes has centered around "male-centric" rather than "masculine-centric."

It is true that I will defer to any Butch, of any ID. I always check myself and my thoughts before I post to be certain I am not offending anyone, hitting any trigger phrases, pushing any hot buttons, forgetting to hedge myself about with obligatory disclaimers... lord love a duck, it gets tiring and I mostly just don't post, yanno? I mostly just don't post.

Right now, I just want all the Butches and Transguys of our community to finally grow up and share the space and this includes me.

This sense of needing to jockey for position. The fear of one's identity going out of favor or being overshadowed by another, i.e., loss of power or position within the community. This need to compete, defend; as if 'my' tribe will be assimilated. It's maddening sometimes.

Thank you, to all, for the support you give, to all of us. *smiles and handshakes all around*

Please don't stop posting. *smiles*

[Bit]

Originally Posted by little man

i can learn (and unlearn) here.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Wil}}}}}}}}}}}}}} I've never found you to be anything other than supportive.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?

I've experienced that. Interestingly enough, the times in the past when I have felt judged have been when other Femmes have tried to take away my rights to speak to and about female-identified Butches. The mechanism has usually been that I say something inclusive of all Butches, OR I say something about one group of Butches without painstakingly referencing all the other groups of Butches--and then I am arbitrarily branded as erasing and devaluing female identified Butches.

The effect of this has been to make me APPEAR to be enforcing male-centric standards on our community, because people have loudly tarred me with that brush. The truth is that in a weird and twisted kind of way, the people who have insisted that I am holding up male-centric standards have actually done it themselves by bringing it up in the first place and plastering it all over me when I wanted nothing to do with it and was deliberately, carefully avoiding it.

I suppose the problem is that some people cannot see past the "scarcity model" of thinking, and believe whole-heartedly that there is only one kind of recognition and it's limited; therefore, they seem to believe that if a person is recognizing male-identified Butches they are automatically erasing female-identified Butches, and vice versa. (I believe this is the root of the division in the Butch community even now.)

I say there is enough attention and recognition to go around. Both male and female identified Butches are valuable members of our community and deserve recognition--just as Transmen are valued and deserve recognition.

But what has happened is that in actual practice, no one hears me. From being a strong, deeply thoughtful, analytical, articulate, and valued ally of all three groups, I have been reduced to a caricature of unthinking prejudice--and so I am silenced.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Bit

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Wil}}}}}}}}}}}}}} I've never found you to be anything other than supportive.


I've experienced that. Interestingly enough, the times in the past when I have felt judged have been when other Femmes have tried to take away my rights to speak to and about female-identified Butches. The mechanism has usually been that I say something inclusive of all Butches, OR I say something about one group of Butches without painstakingly referencing all the other groups of Butches--and then I am arbitrarily branded as erasing and devaluing female identified Butches.

The effect of this has been to make me APPEAR to be enforcing male-centric standards on our community, because people have loudly tarred me with that brush. The truth is that in a weird and twisted kind of way, the people who have insisted that I am holding up male-centric standards have actually done it themselves by bringing it up in the first place and plastering it all over me when I wanted nothing to do with it and was deliberately, carefully avoiding it.

I suppose the problem is that some people cannot see past the "scarcity model" of thinking, and believe whole-heartedly that there is only one kind of recognition and it's limited; therefore, they seem to believe that if a person is recognizing male-identified Butches they are automatically erasing female-identified Butches, and vice versa. (I believe this is the root of the division in the Butch community even now.)

I say there is enough attention and recognition to go around. Both male and female identified Butches are valuable members of our community and deserve recognition--just as Transmen are valued and deserve recognition.

But what has happened is that in actual practice, no one hears me. From being a strong, deeply thoughtful, analytical, articulate, and valued ally of all three groups, I have been reduced to a caricature of unthinking prejudice--and so I am silenced.

I have never read you as supporting masculine centric thinking. Ever.

I have read you speaking your truth and loving others for whom they are. Not with one excluding the other.

(((Bit))) please don't let them silence you.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

(((Bit))) please don't let them silence you.

Thank you for the affirmation and validation, darlin. {{{{{{{{{{{{{Adele}}}}}}}}}}}

It's scary, speaking up without regard for what might come next. I'm feeling a huge amount of anxiety right now. *wry smile*

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?

Ok, well, I can't speak from that "we" (as femmes) place, but I can say that maybe sometimes yes, you do contribute to masculine-centrism.

As a matter of conditioning (as e described above).

As a matter of necessity in your support of the fragile creature that is masculine.

I utilize masculine here because we all of us who fall under the butch* portion of the name of this site, and others, share some similar qualities. I don't care what anyone says, we are fragile ego'ed creatures. We need soothing, stroking and reassuring. We need to have our masculinity fluffed.

We are, in short, somewhat pathetic. All of us, what with our noise about our "natural levels of testosterone" and our ridiculous "knightly" ways, posture strong and resilient when the fact is, we would have difficulty pressing on if it weren't for your support. In putting you in that position, in accepting that love and nurturing you offer us, we smother you.

While butch, just as femme, stands alone as an identity (not "half of something") I wouldn't be who I am today if it weren't for you. I am ever thankful when you, one or many or all of you, stand behind, beside or in front of me in some struggle, but sometimes I think that has placed you solely in a supporting role. And everyone of us knows, femme is so much larger than that.


*Butch, man, transman, bulldyke, bulldagger, transbutch, etc.

[Tommi]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?

Echo, echo echo....listening in..Learning in the midst of life.

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?

i dont think i'm guilty of defining the way male/masculine identified persons do the business of their lives, whether i agree with how they do it or not. could be wrong tho'.

if ANY person wants to do the "world domination" attitude thing i dont feel any need to participate in their delusions of grandeur. i'd rather snicker to myself from the sidelines or slap them down in my own special ways.

do we judge one another in harshly? oh hell yes.

my "at home politics" and my "world politics" are so different as to be two distinct realities. i'm not at all confused about them and neither is any Lover who wants more than a passing chance with me.

if i choose to use pink fonts, to wear maribu and lace, to fuck myself with a hello kitty vibrator or any other so-called "girly" behavior and someone thinks i'm less intelligent or that i'm doing such things "for" someone else they can suck my dick (she said delicately).

i'm swamped with paraphernalia that extols whatever measurable intelligence i've managed to exhibit as well as my professional success over the long term. i'm a damn smart bitch and i'm also damn submissive in intimate situations. i'm also a fairly decent human being. the fact that i like to be held down and fucked like an expensive whore or that i live and breathe my Lover's desires when we find we have mutual free time and opportunity has nothing to do with my intelligence or my ability to take care of my car and home maintenance or to de-worm the cat without help from a Guy.

i choose the girly things FOR me, no one else. whenever i've decided to be without Lovers i didnt stop with the girly stuff. it's MY stuff. it's ME. it's not an act for someone else.

my lesbian friends used to ream me for being myself all the time. we're not friends anymore. if my femme friends begin to do the same i'll happily do without them as well. i love my friends but without them, i'm just fine.

in case it needs to be said, i'm not getting my temper on or anything. i just wanted to answer this (very valid) question from well within my own space.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by hippieflowergirl

my "at home politics" and my "world politics" are so different as to be two distinct realities. i'm not at all confused about them and neither is any Lover who wants more than a passing chance with me.

if i choose to use pink fonts, to wear maribu and lace, to fuck myself with a hello kitty vibrator or any other so-called "girly" behavior and someone thinks i'm less intelligent or that i'm doing such things "for" someone else they can suck my dick (she said delicately).

i'm swamped with paraphernalia that extols whatever measurable intelligence i've managed to exhibit as well as my professional success over the long term. i'm a damn smart bitch and i'm also damn submissive in intimate situations. i'm also a fairly decent human being. the fact that i like to be held down and fucked like an expensive whore or that i live and breathe my Lover's desires when we find we have mutual free time and opportunity has nothing to do with my intelligence or my ability to take care of my car and home maintenance or to de-worm the cat without help from a Guy.

i choose the girly things FOR me, no one else. whenever i've decided to be without Lovers i didnt stop with the girly stuff. it's MY stuff. it's ME. it's not an act for someone else.

Okay, y'all, if I had the rights to publish from this here thread, I do believe you might find the flowergirl's words above right slap on the inside jacket cover.

[Lynn]

I can't really untangle this discussion from the one I have every day with my self about being a woman. I have yet to actually embrace the name "Femme" even though I'm all about embracing butches. This is the ONLY place I've felt free to express this thought. Actually, it's the only place I've felt safe enough to even articulate it to myself-- I have a hard time being "a" femme because I haven't been able to completely divorce it from the idea of butch. One seems to have to go with the other. It describes my sexual preference, but it doesn't describe ME. My whole struggle, regarding identity, has to do with coming to an awareness of and appreciation for who I am, as a whole being. As a woman. As a lesbian. To me, these are the most powerful names. A lot of times, on these sites, I maintain a bemused detachment. And, when I finally feel like I have something useful to add, I can't help but put apology after disclaimer after qualification. Lest I offend ANYONE else. But, fuck how I feel. It's like, "Ahem, excuse me. But, I have an opinion. Sorry if it offends anyone in the whole wide world. But, if you offend me, I understand because I give you your (story, religion, family upbringing, mental illness, addiction, abuse, culture, age, life stage, loss and grief....). I will understand, but you don't have to. So. Sorry if I offended anyone."

I reread an old post of mine on another site, replete with these apologies, just today and I wanted to vomit. In life, as well as on line, I still haven't found how to be as strong an advocate for myself as I am for everyone else.