Open Letter: Dear Femme

[little man]

i can learn (and unlearn) here.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by little man

i can learn (and unlearn) here.

Dear Wil,

You have long been one of our best and greatest allies.

Your sincerity and deep consideration are unmatched.

I have so much gratitude for You.

Love,

e

[SuperFemme]

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?

Yes, I absolutely own and allow that I am guilty. But again, I am seeing this as "masculine-centric" rather than simply male-centric. When we call it male-centric, we're throwing our transguys and male-id'd fellas under the bus, and it's also patently unfair because of the ways that butch women, i.e., masculine females, inherently dominate our spaces as well. Don't misread me, although I may have seemed to have a certain "side" in these debates, I do not have a "side" for/against anyone. I Love ALL of These Groups. I literally and motherfucking do.

But here are the ways I see me playing into the masculine-centrism:

- I am always on the ready to call out transphobia (usually in the form of transguyphobia) or to speak up for the way that female id'd butches are not being seen (bc I have also done this), but am less likely to call out ways that I may see femmes being denigrated.

Usually it is because I either wait for someone else to weigh in on the subject, or because I actually believe that what a particular femme has done is distasteful and does not speak to Me, Julie, This Femme. Well, so motherfucking what?

Yes, I am sometimes guilty of judging other femmes harshly.

For example, if a femme posts in a certain font (pink) and is always serving up virtual cupcakes and tea, I am less likely (read: not at all) to listen to what she has to say. I WILL skip over her. And not because the font is hard to read (it is) but because it is "too girly" and that reads as "too ridiculous."

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by evolveme

Yes, I absolutely own and allow that I am guilty. But again, I am seeing this as "masculine-centric" rather than simply male-centric. When we call it male-centric, we're throwing our transguys and male-id'd fellas under the bus, and it's also patently unfair because of the ways that butch women, i.e., masculine females, inherently dominate our spaces as well. Don't misread me, although I may have seemed to have a certain "side" in these debates, I do not have a "side" for/against anyone. I Love ALL of These Groups. I literally and motherfucking do.

But here are the ways I see me playing into the masculine-centrism:

- I am always on the ready to call out transphobia (usually in the form of transguyphobia) or to speak up for the way that female id'd butches are not being seen (bc I have also done this), but am less likely to call out ways that I may see femmes being denigrated.

Usually it is because I either wait for someone else to weigh in on the subject, or because I actually believe that what a particular femme has done is distasteful and does not speak to Me, Julie, This Femme. Well, so motherfucking what?

Yes, I am sometimes guilty of judging other femmes harshly.

For example, if a femme posts in a certain font (pink) and is always serving up virtual cupcakes and tea, I am less likely (read: not at all) to listen to what she has to say. I WILL skip over her. And not because the font is hard to read (it is) but because it is "too girly" and that reads as "too ridiculous."

My mind was thinking masculine centric and I typed male. I have to ponder that. I apologize.

The tea serving, maribou slipper wearing posts bother me because I feel they feed into the pleasing of the masculine.

It feels nonsensical and frustrating because to *Me* Femmes are a stand alone force worthy of so much more than an accoutrement.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by evolveme

Yes, I am sometimes guilty of judging other femmes harshly.

For example, if a femme posts in a certain font (pink) and is always serving up virtual cupcakes and tea, I am less likely (read: not at all) to listen to what she has to say. I WILL skip over her. And not because the font is hard to read (it is) but because it is "too girly" and that reads as "too ridiculous."

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

The tea serving, maribou slipper wearing posts bother me because I feel they feed into the pleasing of the masculine.

Okay, this one and then I think I'm done.... at least till after ...

Yes, it's hard to read some of the lighter colored fonts. Yes, some of those posts are way WAY girly. BUT they aren't girly in service of the masculine, they're girly as an expression of the Femmes who write them.... the girliness isn't imposed from the outside, it wells up from the inside.

And yes, there are brains behind some of that girliness that pretty much never speak an analytical thought--out loud. Doesn't mean they don't think those thoughts. I've been privileged to have sometimes read them--they're just as sharp as the rest of us.

Whether that kind of post feeds into the pleasing of the masculine.... that's trickier. I think it does, but I don't think that's the reason for the posting style... I suspect those who love girly posts would post that way if---the heavens forfend!!--there were no Butches at all, because it wells up from inside the Femmes like water from an artesian spring.

And now, indeed, before she drives me insane, lol....

[Bit]

Originally Posted by evolveme

But again, I am seeing this as "masculine-centric" rather than simply male-centric. When we call it male-centric, we're throwing our transguys and male-id'd fellas under the bus, and it's also patently unfair because of the ways that butch women, i.e., masculine females, inherently dominate our spaces as well.

I understand your point here, but the judgment I have endured from other Femmes has centered around "male-centric" rather than "masculine-centric."

It is true that I will defer to any Butch, of any ID. I always check myself and my thoughts before I post to be certain I am not offending anyone, hitting any trigger phrases, pushing any hot buttons, forgetting to hedge myself about with obligatory disclaimers... lord love a duck, it gets tiring and I mostly just don't post, yanno? I mostly just don't post.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

In reading e and Bit's posts I had a thought.

Is the expected demur and polite veneer used as a way to silence us?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Bit

.......unless, of course, they are people I care about. That's the rub, eh? Because I care about Butches and Transmen... it's one thing to stop being unnecessarily polite to strangers. It's another to stop caring about Butches and Transmen..............

..............you caught that, I'm sure. I caught it as the thought came out of my head. Since when does politeness equal caring? Am I required to be self-effacing enough to accept any kind of intrusion, simply to be seen as caring? Am I required to seat myself last at the table (I can hear half the world's Butches cringing, lol, can't you?) simply to be considered properly supportive?

Originally Posted by Bit

I say there is enough attention and recognition to go around. Both male and female identified Butches are valuable members of our community and deserve recognition--just as Transmen are valued and deserve recognition.

But what has happened is that in actual practice, no one hears me. From being a strong, deeply thoughtful, analytical, articulate, and valued ally of all three groups, I have been reduced to a caricature of unthinking prejudice--and so I am silenced.

Originally Posted by Bit

It is true that I will defer to any Butch, of any ID. I always check myself and my thoughts before I post to be certain I am not offending anyone, hitting any trigger phrases, pushing any hot buttons, forgetting to hedge myself about with obligatory disclaimers... lord love a duck, it gets tiring and I mostly just don't post, yanno? I mostly just don't post.

Cath, whom I adore, I've selected pieces from a few of your posts that speak to the same thing. Namely, how you see yourself deferring to butches and transmasculine others always. How you appear more concerned with their comfort than your own. How your need to do this has left you feeling silenced and misunderstood.

When reading these posts, what kept occurring to me was your need to speak of the masculine other in this thread, which is a Call to Femme, to You.

It is about You. It is about what is beautiful and powerful and autonomous in You.

I have seen the ways that we have disallowed ourselves.

Here, I want to see us naming and seeing ourselves. And one another.

Don't misunderstand, I also want to talk about the ways that we are met with masculine-centrism and how we have handled it, as much as how we might choose to handle it in the future, but if I see that you are focusing over-much on the masculine, I'm just going to remind you -gently- of You.

Because, you know, it's You who just fucking rocks my socks.

It's You whom I have admired most.

It's You who have been my unofficial mentors.

It's You I think of as my friends.

[evolveme]

Regarding my earlier mention of the Dread Pink Font.

I was owning that as a likely example of one of the ways I have bought and swallowed the misogyny. The frivolity reads, well, frivolous. (Watch me do it again here for free, folks!)

I suppose that on the other side of that, you won't find me enjoying anything overly stereotyped as male/masculine (read: neanderthal). All that belching business has me clicking out of a thread instantly.

Now, as Bit pointed out, some of our best femmes may be the pinkly fonted, virtually tea party hostesses. I am not judging them. I am just not reading them. What SuperFemme asked was 'how are we participating?.'

This was one of the ways I could name off-hand. I am not getting to know these femmes. By choice.

I thought it was a great question.

How else are we party to the masculine-centrism?

[Bit]

Originally Posted by evolveme

...Namely, how you see yourself deferring to butches and transmasculine others always. How you appear more concerned with their comfort than your own. How your need to do this has left you feeling silenced and misunderstood.

When reading these posts, what kept occurring to me was your need to speak of the masculine other in this thread...

{{{{{{{{{{{e}}}}}}}}}}}

I think you misunderstand my point. While it is true that I am always conscious of posting in a way that supports Butches and Transmen, and while I did have that epiphany about polite equalling caring--or not equalling it, as the case may be, lol--Adele had asked if we, as Femmes, enforce the male-centric viewpoint (or masculine-centric). That was my main point: yes, indeed we do; it has happened to me in a very negative way that has silenced me.

Butches have not silenced me.

Transmen have not silenced me.

Femmes have silenced me.

I'm sorry that I didn't make the point more effectively.

I don't want to leave you thinking that I'm backpedaling, or that I haven't said the things you quoted. It does seem to me, though, that you missed my emphasis and thought I was saying it was the Butches who left me feeling this way when I was trying to say it was Femmes who have had these judgmental interactions with me.

I suppose this is another area where I haven't been clear enough---after a while I start to feel like I'm beating the subject into the ground and so I do use shorthand references, my apologies--anyhow, when I posted the last one you quoted, about always being careful not to hit the hot buttons or use the trigger phrases, and being discouraged enough to just not post? That has come about because of the silencing. It didn't used to be that way for me. I've always been conscious about posting respectfully, not just about Butches and Transmen but about all of us, but I didn't used to feel so hopelessly discouraged.

And now I really do feel like I'm beating the subject into the ground. *wry smile* Time for me to go offline; if I'm not back tomorrow I'll be back Monday.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by Bit

Butches have not silenced me.

Transmen have not silenced me.

Femmes have silenced me.

{{{Bit}}}

I think this is a great place to talk about the ways in which that has happened. And why are we silencing one another? What does it mean that we do this?

Are we, as a friend suggested (thanks hudson), playing out the evolutionary battle in a competition for resources (butch/masculine people)? Is this what that competition begins to look like when it becomes so fiercely ingrained?

And is this why our masculine counterparts seem to be in their own power-struggle? Or does it truly, at baseline, have to do with misogyny?

Is misogyny the result of that struggle?

These questions aren't really for this thread, I suppose, so forgive my tangential mind. But I do wonder about the ways that we silence one another. And at least about the more topical reasons as to why.

[hippieflowergirl]

Originally Posted by bit

{{{{{{{{{{{e}}}}}}}}}}}

i think you misunderstand my point. While it is true that i am always conscious of posting in a way that supports butches and transmen, and while i did have that epiphany about polite equalling caring--or not equalling it, as the case may be, lol--adele had asked if we, as femmes, enforce the male-centric viewpoint (or masculine-centric). That was my main point: Yes, indeed we do; it has happened to me in a very negative way that has silenced me.

butches have not silenced me.

Transmen have not silenced me.

Femmes have silenced me.

i'm sorry that i didn't make the point more effectively.

I don't want to leave you thinking that i'm backpedaling, or that i haven't said the things you quoted. It does seem to me, though, that you missed my emphasis and thought i was saying it was the butches who left me feeling this way when i was trying to say it was femmes who have had these judgmental interactions with me.

I suppose this is another area where i haven't been clear enough---after a while i start to feel like i'm beating the subject into the ground and so i do use shorthand references, my apologies--anyhow, when i posted the last one you quoted, about always being careful not to hit the hot buttons or use the trigger phrases, and being discouraged enough to just not post? That has come about because of the silencing. It didn't used to be that way for me. I've always been conscious about posting respectfully, not just about butches and transmen but about all of us, but i didn't used to feel so hopelessly discouraged.

And now i really do feel like i'm beating the subject into the ground. *wry smile* time for me to go offline; if i'm not back tomorrow i'll be back monday.

~ a-fucking-men ~
~ halle-fucking-lujah ~
~ and holla back ~
(as we trash-a-licious types here in the ghettoplex say)

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by Bit

I understand your point here, but the judgment I have endured from other Femmes has centered around "male-centric" rather than "masculine-centric."

It is true that I will defer to any Butch, of any ID. I always check myself and my thoughts before I post to be certain I am not offending anyone, hitting any trigger phrases, pushing any hot buttons, forgetting to hedge myself about with obligatory disclaimers... lord love a duck, it gets tiring and I mostly just don't post, yanno? I mostly just don't post.

Right now, I just want all the Butches and Transguys of our community to finally grow up and share the space and this includes me.

This sense of needing to jockey for position. The fear of one's identity going out of favor or being overshadowed by another, i.e., loss of power or position within the community. This need to compete, defend; as if 'my' tribe will be assimilated. It's maddening sometimes.

Thank you, to all, for the support you give, to all of us. *smiles and handshakes all around*

Please don't stop posting. *smiles*

[blush]

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Right now, I just want all the Butches and Transguys of our community to finally grow up and share the space and this includes me.

This sense of needing to jockey for position. The fear of one's identity going out of favor or being overshadowed by another, i.e., loss of power or position within the community. This need to compete, defend; as if 'my' tribe will be assimilated. It's maddening sometimes.

Thank you, to all, for the support you give, to all of us. *smiles and handshakes all around*

Please don't stop posting. *smiles*

I'm not sure what you mean by "share the space?" With who? Femmes?

That'd be nice. I've noticed that all too frequently the top threads are all about masculine-based identities. As important as these conversations are, for all of us, they frequently overshadow ANY femme conversation. This has been my experience in real time as well.

[Kosmo]

Originally Posted by blush

I'm not sure what you mean by "share the space?" With who? Femmes?

That'd be nice. I've noticed that all too frequently the top threads are all about masculine-based identities. As important as these conversations are, for all of us, they frequently overshadow ANY femme conversation. This has been my experience in real time as well.

Hi, blush

Well, what was in my mind at the time of that comment was masculine-based identity space. But.... I like your understanding of it a lot better. To be honest, I've just started to view more femme space here. Mostly just reading and trying not to interrupt.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by little man

i can learn (and unlearn) here.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Wil}}}}}}}}}}}}}} I've never found you to be anything other than supportive.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?

I've experienced that. Interestingly enough, the times in the past when I have felt judged have been when other Femmes have tried to take away my rights to speak to and about female-identified Butches. The mechanism has usually been that I say something inclusive of all Butches, OR I say something about one group of Butches without painstakingly referencing all the other groups of Butches--and then I am arbitrarily branded as erasing and devaluing female identified Butches.

The effect of this has been to make me APPEAR to be enforcing male-centric standards on our community, because people have loudly tarred me with that brush. The truth is that in a weird and twisted kind of way, the people who have insisted that I am holding up male-centric standards have actually done it themselves by bringing it up in the first place and plastering it all over me when I wanted nothing to do with it and was deliberately, carefully avoiding it.

I suppose the problem is that some people cannot see past the "scarcity model" of thinking, and believe whole-heartedly that there is only one kind of recognition and it's limited; therefore, they seem to believe that if a person is recognizing male-identified Butches they are automatically erasing female-identified Butches, and vice versa. (I believe this is the root of the division in the Butch community even now.)

I say there is enough attention and recognition to go around. Both male and female identified Butches are valuable members of our community and deserve recognition--just as Transmen are valued and deserve recognition.

But what has happened is that in actual practice, no one hears me. From being a strong, deeply thoughtful, analytical, articulate, and valued ally of all three groups, I have been reduced to a caricature of unthinking prejudice--and so I am silenced.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Bit

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Wil}}}}}}}}}}}}}} I've never found you to be anything other than supportive.


I've experienced that. Interestingly enough, the times in the past when I have felt judged have been when other Femmes have tried to take away my rights to speak to and about female-identified Butches. The mechanism has usually been that I say something inclusive of all Butches, OR I say something about one group of Butches without painstakingly referencing all the other groups of Butches--and then I am arbitrarily branded as erasing and devaluing female identified Butches.

The effect of this has been to make me APPEAR to be enforcing male-centric standards on our community, because people have loudly tarred me with that brush. The truth is that in a weird and twisted kind of way, the people who have insisted that I am holding up male-centric standards have actually done it themselves by bringing it up in the first place and plastering it all over me when I wanted nothing to do with it and was deliberately, carefully avoiding it.

I suppose the problem is that some people cannot see past the "scarcity model" of thinking, and believe whole-heartedly that there is only one kind of recognition and it's limited; therefore, they seem to believe that if a person is recognizing male-identified Butches they are automatically erasing female-identified Butches, and vice versa. (I believe this is the root of the division in the Butch community even now.)

I say there is enough attention and recognition to go around. Both male and female identified Butches are valuable members of our community and deserve recognition--just as Transmen are valued and deserve recognition.

But what has happened is that in actual practice, no one hears me. From being a strong, deeply thoughtful, analytical, articulate, and valued ally of all three groups, I have been reduced to a caricature of unthinking prejudice--and so I am silenced.

I have never read you as supporting masculine centric thinking. Ever.

I have read you speaking your truth and loving others for whom they are. Not with one excluding the other.

(((Bit))) please don't let them silence you.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

(((Bit))) please don't let them silence you.

Thank you for the affirmation and validation, darlin. {{{{{{{{{{{{{Adele}}}}}}}}}}}

It's scary, speaking up without regard for what might come next. I'm feeling a huge amount of anxiety right now. *wry smile*

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?

Ok, well, I can't speak from that "we" (as femmes) place, but I can say that maybe sometimes yes, you do contribute to masculine-centrism.

As a matter of conditioning (as e described above).

As a matter of necessity in your support of the fragile creature that is masculine.

I utilize masculine here because we all of us who fall under the butch* portion of the name of this site, and others, share some similar qualities. I don't care what anyone says, we are fragile ego'ed creatures. We need soothing, stroking and reassuring. We need to have our masculinity fluffed.

We are, in short, somewhat pathetic. All of us, what with our noise about our "natural levels of testosterone" and our ridiculous "knightly" ways, posture strong and resilient when the fact is, we would have difficulty pressing on if it weren't for your support. In putting you in that position, in accepting that love and nurturing you offer us, we smother you.

While butch, just as femme, stands alone as an identity (not "half of something") I wouldn't be who I am today if it weren't for you. I am ever thankful when you, one or many or all of you, stand behind, beside or in front of me in some struggle, but sometimes I think that has placed you solely in a supporting role. And everyone of us knows, femme is so much larger than that.


*Butch, man, transman, bulldyke, bulldagger, transbutch, etc.

[Tommi]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?

Echo, echo echo....listening in..Learning in the midst of life.