It's Time to Boycott Arizona

[Toughy]

Kobi,

What you seem to equate with ethics and philosophy.......hedging your bets and maybe it's right and maybe it's wrong..........actually has nothing to do with what I know about ethics and philosophy.

I have been on a couple of Institutional Review Boards (Ethics Review Board).....actually I was Chair of one. An IRB is set up to protect the welfare and rights of persons who volunteer for clinical trials and medical research. Incidentally, IRBs are the direct result of the 40 year Tuskegee Syphilis Experiments that ended in 1972. If you don't know about it.............try that google thang.....It was wrong then and it's wrong now.

We made judgments about every trial. We decided what was right or wrong. We approved or disapproved recruitment, retention, monitoring, design, and implementation of clinical trials. If we decided it was not ethical, then it had to be changed or that trial would not be conducted at our institution.

That IS what ethics are about. Making judgments about what is good for the individual and good for the community.

I am appalled that you will not condemn the fucked up racist shit that has happened and continues to happen in this country. As Aj pointed out........if you will not condemn racism, then I know I cannot count on you to condemn bigotry against the queer community. I cannot count on you to stand up and demand we queer folk be treated equally under the law.

[TheBellyBionic]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Kobi,

What you seem to equate with ethics and philosophy.......hedging your bets and maybe it's right and maybe it's wrong..........actually has nothing to do with what I know about ethics and philosophy.
<snipped for brevity, I hope you don't mind, Toughy>
I am appalled that you will not condemn the fucked up racist shit that has happened and continues to happen in this country. As Aj pointed out........if you will not condemn racism, then I know I cannot count on you to condemn bigotry against the queer community. I cannot count on you to stand up and demand we queer folk be treated equally under the law.

This, exactly. Refusing to condemn actions which are clearly wrong in every way denotes nothing so much as a complete *lack* of any kind of ethics. I feel that I have a very strong sense of ethics, and those ethics mean that I absolutely will stand up and say "No, there is definitely a difference between right and wrong. Slavery was wrong. Jim Crow laws were wrong. Apartheid is wrong. There is nothing redeeming or debatable about any of these things. They're just wrong. Always, in any era, at any time, always wrong." Kobi, you say "who am I to judge?" I don't. I, as a person with ethics, am an excellent judge of right and wrong. I, a person with ethics, am absolutely *obligated* to judge right from wrong. I find it incredibly disturbing that anyone could claim otherwise. I'm horrified that anyone could actually say that they can't judge the actions of the past. If you can't judge the past, then why should any of us trust you to make good decisions in the future? If you can't say whether or not slavery was wrong, why should any of us think that you'd stand against it happening again?

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by TheBellyBionic

This, exactly. Refusing to condemn actions which are clearly wrong in every way denotes nothing so much as a complete *lack* of any kind of ethics. I feel that I have a very strong sense of ethics, and those ethics mean that I absolutely will stand up and say "No, there is definitely a difference between right and wrong. Slavery was wrong. Jim Crow laws were wrong. Apartheid is wrong. There is nothing redeeming or debatable about any of these things. They're just wrong. Always, in any era, at any time, always wrong." Kobi, you say "who am I to judge?" I don't. I, as a person with ethics, am an excellent judge of right and wrong. I, a person with ethics, am absolutely *obligated* to judge right from wrong. I find it incredibly disturbing that anyone could claim otherwise. I'm horrified that anyone could actually say that they can't judge the actions of the past. If you can't judge the past, then why should any of us trust you to make good decisions in the future? If you can't say whether or not slavery was wrong, why should any of us think that you'd stand against it happening again?

SHIT! Hell yes, one can determine if something in the past is right or wrong. And one would have to rather moronic to not be able to see what those wrongs have produced that we deal with today. Unless one just wants to keep themselves under a rock. Which is the choice of many, unfortunately.

You are right on here, Aj. I often look around at some of the wing-nut garbage today and wonder.... Would these people stand up against forms of the past transgressions today? My gut fear is they would not. and cry that they didn't know it was happening just as so many did while Jews (and others) were being gased in concentration camps (just one example).

In fact, examples of this kind of thinking (and in-action) are with us today! How many turn the other way with environmental hazards, domestic abuse and violence right next door, hate crimes against people, crimes against women, child labor infractions, blatant racism and the long term effects of structural racism... on and on..... fill in more blanks....

You bet the sins of the past are on me if I don't recognize exactly what they are and how they continue in various forms!

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by TheBellyBionic

This, exactly. Refusing to condemn actions which are clearly wrong in every way denotes nothing so much as a complete *lack* of any kind of ethics. I feel that I have a very strong sense of ethics, and those ethics mean that I absolutely will stand up and say "No, there is definitely a difference between right and wrong. Slavery was wrong. Jim Crow laws were wrong. Apartheid is wrong. There is nothing redeeming or debatable about any of these things. They're just wrong. Always, in any era, at any time, always wrong." Kobi, you say "who am I to judge?" I don't. I, as a person with ethics, am an excellent judge of right and wrong. I, a person with ethics, am absolutely *obligated* to judge right from wrong. I find it incredibly disturbing that anyone could claim otherwise. I'm horrified that anyone could actually say that they can't judge the actions of the past. If you can't judge the past, then why should any of us trust you to make good decisions in the future? If you can't say whether or not slavery was wrong, why should any of us think that you'd stand against it happening again?

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

[FONT="Century Gothic"][COLOR="Black"]

You are right on here, Aj. I often look around at some of the wing-nut garbage today and wonder.... Would these people stand up against forms of the past transgressions today? My gut fear is they would not. and cry that they didn't know it was happening just as so many did while Jews (and others) were being gased in concentration camps (just on

ALH:

I have to call something out here. Ordinarily I would let Belly do this because I don't fight her battles but you addressed me so it's my responsibility. Since it was public and since this is an example of something Belly has complained about generally here (so I'm not trying to make you the scapegoat) I'm doing this out in the open. If this was something better handled privately I apologize in advance.

You responded to me, but those thoughts are Belly's. Yes, it's something I might have said. It's certainly something I absolutely believe to be true. But Belly came into our relationship already believing that. She gets me. I get her. So it shouldn't be surprising that we would think a lot alike.

On another thread, Belly complained about butches not taking femme's seriously. This is what that looks like. Belly is a very intelligent woman and she has her own opinions. When she's posting, she's expressing *her* opinions. Opinions that I assume she arrived at on her own. I know that she did not have them fed to her by me.

On the larger point, femme's deserve to be taken seriously. We butches should take them seriously, we should do so because they deserve it and we should do so because if feminism means anything at all it means taking women seriously as human beings.

Cheers
Aj

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

ALH:

I have to call something out here. Ordinarily I would let Belly do this because I don't fight her battles but you addressed me so it's my responsibility. Since it was public and since this is an example of something Belly has complained about generally here (so I'm not trying to make you the scapegoat) I'm doing this out in the open. If this was something better handled privately I apologize in advance.

You responded to me, but those thoughts are Belly's. Yes, it's something I might have said. It's certainly something I absolutely believe to be true. But Belly came into our relationship already believing that. She gets me. I get her. So it shouldn't be surprising that we would think a lot alike.

On another thread, Belly complained about butches not taking femme's seriously. This is what that looks like. Belly is a very intelligent woman and she has her own opinions. When she's posting, she's expressing *her* opinions. Opinions that I assume she arrived at on her own. I know that she did not have them fed to her by me.

On the larger point, femme's deserve to be taken seriously. We butches should take them seriously, we should do so because they deserve it and we should do so because if feminism means anything at all it means taking women seriously as human beings.

Cheers
Aj

I actually did not mean to do this at all, I knew full well it was Belly's post. I feel terrible for the slip. And do apologize. I do remember reading both you and Belly's posts in one sitting... and I just typed Aj. You certainly do not need to tell me that Belly is one hell of an intelligent woman.

I would have preferred that you did PM me as this was just a slip of names due to knowing you as a couple and nothing more. A human error. Your comments about taking femmes and feminist ideology to me seems a bit off as I am a rock solid feminist and one of my Master's Degrees is in Women's Studies as well as my doctorial dissertation was on sex-roles and women's oppression (back in the day). As a woman and a feminist, and past professor of feminist and women’s studies, I certainly do take us seriously.

This was a simple error without any ill intent whatsoever and I did not think you wrote the post. I just mixed-up names, that's it.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I actually did not mean to do this at all, I knew full well it was Belly's post. I feel terrible for the slip. And do apologize. I do remember reading both you and Belly's posts in one sitting... and I just typed Aj. You certainly do not need to tell me that Belly is one hell of an intelligent woman.

I would have preferred that you did PM me as this was just a slip of names due to knowing you as a couple and nothing more. A human error. Your comments about taking femmes and feminist ideology to me seems a bit off as I am a rock solid feminist and one of my Master's Degrees is in Women's Studies as well as my doctorial dissertation was on sex-roles and women's oppression (back in the day). As a woman and a feminist, and past professor of feminist and women’s studies, I certainly do take us seriously.

This was a simple error without any ill intent whatsoever and I did not think you wrote the post. I just mixed-up names, that's it. [/QUOTE]

I did not mean to imply that you were not a feminist and I didn't necessarily think it intentional. I appreciate your owning it and certainly would defer to you on questions of feminist theory.

Belly pointed the post out to me and I had seen it earlier in the day but every time I went to respond, the phone rang. Because I've seen femme's dismissed in ways both blatant and subtle, this seemed as good a time as any to point out one manifestation of this. It was not meant as a personal attack and my statement of feminism was not meant to convey any impression that I didn't think you were a feminist.

All theory aside--and theory is important--I think that my feminism most comes alive in how I treat other women. It is the most concrete expression of it. I hope that in how I engage with people here I treat the femme's in our midst as I treat my fellow butches. I hope that the femme's feel that I take them and their thoughts seriously because to me those are the beginning and end of feminism--as a personal ethic--for me. Everything else is commentary.

Again, no offense was meant.

Cheers
Aj

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

I would have preferred that you did PM me as this was just a slip of names due to knowing you as a couple and nothing more. A human error. Your comments about taking femmes and feminist ideology to me seems a bit off as I am a rock solid feminist and one of my Master's Degrees is in Women's Studies as well as my doctorial dissertation was on sex-roles and women's oppression (back in the day). As a woman and a feminist, and past professor of feminist and women’s studies, I certainly do take us seriously.

This was a simple error without any ill intent whatsoever and I did not think you wrote the post. I just mixed-up names, that's it. [/COLOR][/FONT]

I did not mean to imply that you were not a feminist and I didn't necessarily think it intentional. I appreciate your owning it and certainly would defer to you on questions of feminist theory.

Belly pointed the post out to me and I had seen it earlier in the day but every time I went to respond, the phone rang. Because I've seen femme's dismissed in ways both blatant and subtle, this seemed as good a time as any to point out one manifestation of this. It was not meant as a personal attack and my statement of feminism was not meant to convey any impression that I didn't think you were a feminist.

All theory aside--and theory is important--I think that my feminism most comes alive in how I treat other women. It is the most concrete expression of it. I hope that in how I engage with people here I treat the femme's in our midst as I treat my fellow butches. I hope that the femme's feel that I take them and their thoughts seriously because to me those are the beginning and end of feminism--as a personal ethic--for me. Everything else is commentary.

Again, no offense was meant.

Cheers
Aj[/QUOTE]



[COLOR="Black"]Oh, I see your point and feel terrible for the blunder. I certainly also have seen countless dismissals of femmes on these sites. Although, I honestly do feel the Planet is much more feminist-friendly, really. And mods pick up on sexism far better than the old site. Does feel different to me. So much so, I left the other site completely. Not that I do not appreciate the fact that it did connect me to some fantastic people.

Absolutely how women treat other women is crucial!

Now, I have been thinking about the topic at hand in terms of how many other states and municipalities have been developing more such pieces of legislation based upon... the Federal government isn't doing its job.

It appears that the GOP is doing the usual legislative blocking of all things Democratic with actually getting somewhere with immigration reform. I'm glad Obama pointed this out recently and that a bill co-authored by McCain was kicked to the curb a couple of years ago.

I know so much about all of this go no where until after the mid-terms and if the GOP does pick up seats and the House reverts to a GOP majority, this will be even more of a mess. And the fact is that we do need sane, compassionate immigration reform. The Dems must hammer out the fact that the population of un-documented immigrants already in the US are staying! And a means for them to become legal (and citizens if that is what they desire) is critical in demonstrating that the US does indeed have a stake in having these people become part of the country in every way.

My only hope is that the Latino population is the fastest growing group of voters coming up. There needs to be a big voter registration drive going on and not just in border states. Latino candidates need to be supported (guess I do want that to be Democratic candidates!). This really needs to be a mass social movement. This can’t just keep going on.[ I feel that the amnesty variable is a major sticking point among the GOP and wing-nuts like the tea-baggers. It has to be taken on!

The fact is, there are many, many, many people that believe that the US should round up every illegal person in the US and ship back to their country of origin. They have no problem with spending the billions that would involve. They won't even talk about any other portion of immigration reform without this contingency! Crazy as it is! I'm not even talking about the crazzies here- there are countless middle of the road people that sit on the side of those people are here illegally, period./COLOR]


My own take on dealing with this in order to see immigration reform is for studies of just how the Latino populations that received amnesty during Reagan's administration have contributed to the the US. They began a life with not fearing authorities, thus stopped hiding and put $ in banks, got leases for homes, or even bought a home as their jobs were secure. They started businesses that contribute to the tax base, etc. They pay taxes, go to PTA meetings and take care of their family. Their children became educated and have been able to enter the professions. Now their children are doing the sam. Many did not have the need to engage in any illegal activity to survive. Crime decreased within this population. We have the single most forceful data in front of us to shut down those that want illegals deported right in front of us and we are not using it. And this goes to a major sticking point blocking reform.