What attracts you to Ftms ......

[turasultana]

[QUOTE=dark_crystal;153636]
it has never been possible for a butch to be masculine enough for me/QUOTE]

This bit here. Really. Really?

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

it has never been possible for a butch to be masculine enough for me, but i can't stand for cismales to be masculine AT ALL

therfore FTMs are pretty much a dream come true lol

i know but my brain only thinks in dichotomies...professionals are involved

Originally Posted by turasultana

This bit here. Really. Really?

I have to agree with turasultana.

If I were to post the inverse in an femme oriented thread, "it has never been possible for a femme to be feminine enough for me," I'm reasonably certain I'd have my ass handed to me on a platter.

While you may have never met a butch you considered masculine enough for you (whatever that means, I didn't realize we were qualifying and quantifying now) doesn't mean it isn't possible.

I've met some very effeminate ftms, and some extremely masculine (including female identified) butches, all exist on a spectrum.

Either way, as a masculine person, I'm not offended by this statement, personally, because I'm extremely comfortable with my own masculinity. I am however, kind of disturbed by it.

I want to add that I am posting from the position that I believe it is not only possible, but far kinder, wiser, and more inclusive to talk about what we love in a certain type of person without stepping on the neck of other identities. I think we can celebrate FTMs without speaking negatively with regard to butches or cisgendered men.

[Chancie]

Originally Posted by M. Bent

<snip>

I want to add that I am posting from the position that I believe it is not only possible, but far kinder, wiser, and more inclusive to talk about what we love in a certain type of person without stepping on the neck of other identities. I think we can celebrate FTMs without speaking negatively with regard to butches or cisgendered men.

I agree.

And 'not masculine enough'?

I sure hope I'm feminine enough.

[Leigh]

I like hearing about what attracts someone to guys like us, so can we get back to that pls?

For those who have spilled their guts about what they love about an FTM, thank you from this guy for doing so

[Soft*Silver]

Actually, I have heard some people say they only desire high femmes and the more femme the better. I am not a high femme and I dont take offense when someone says this because they are simply using the limits of the English language to express what they desire in a mate. I am simply a different type of femme and wouldnt even consider myself suitable for the person who only wants a high femme. Am I less a femme? No. I am secure enough in my femmeness not to feel attacked or undervalued.

It is obvious to me that Dark Crystal is stuggling with words to explain what she means. She DOES think in dichotomies, black and white, male female, butch femme...and yet I also see her struggling to get past the dichotomies. She is trying to get to the place where she is inclusive, not exclusive. So, I am not offended by her. I would be if she were being malicious in her intent but she isnt. Thats obvious to everyone. So my approach to her certainly wouldnt be to attack what she says, but to help her learn.

The FtMs I have been involved with have been kind gentlemen. Initially when I first became involved with FtMs, I had alot to learn too. I stumbled with words and yet, they helped me learn. I have been very lucky to have had some great dates. I mattered to them and they took the time to help me explore my dichotomies.

I hope DarkCrystal encounters people just as willing to help her grasp what is past her dichotomies...

[QUOTE=Mister Bent;153668][FONT="Arial"]I have to agree with turasultana.

[FONT="Arial"]If I were to post the inverse in an femme oriented thread, "it has never been possible for a femme to be feminine enough for me," I'm reasonably certain I'd have my ass handed to me on a platter.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by softness

Actually, I have heard some people say they only desire high femmes and the more femme the better. I am not a high femme and I dont take offense when someone says this because they are simply using the limits of the English language to express what they desire in a mate. I am simply a different type of femme and wouldnt even consider myself suitable for the person who only wants a high femme. Am I less a femme? No. I am secure enough in my femmeness not to feel attacked or undervalued.

The portion in bold is not parallel to what Dark Crystal said, and fails as a comparison; it's not the same as saying "it's never been possible for ------ femme to be feminine enough for me." We aren't talking about "butchness" (in the way you speak of "femmeness"), but masculinity. Is a "different type of femme" one less feminine than some other type of femme? Is it your assertion that "femmeness" is exactly the same thing as femininity? Is one a high femme because she is more/most feminine - or is there some other defining set of criteria?

I made it clear that I did not take offense, but found the statement to be one of qualification & quantification, which I find to be disturbing. Nor did I say anything about being "attacked" or "undervalued", you're reading something into my post that isn't there, it wasn't so personal for me (as I think I also made clear).

I continue to maintain that we can talk about what attracts us to FTMs using solely positive terms, not comparative ones that are disparaging of other identities.

Originally Posted by softness

It is obvious to me that Dark Crystal is stuggling with words to explain what she means. She DOES think in dichotomies, black and white, male female, butch femme...and yet I also see her struggling to get past the dichotomies. She is trying to get to the place where she is inclusive, not exclusive. So, I am not offended by her. I would be if she were being malicious in her intent but she isnt. Thats obvious to everyone. So my approach to her certainly wouldnt be to attack what she says, but to help her learn.

Again, as I stated in my post, I wasn't offended by her, nor did I think she was being malicious in her intent, so we're in agreement on that. Dark Crystal wasn't "attacked" she was challenged on some words she used. You're right, it was obvious to everyone. There was nothing personal in my post, or any of the others questioning her opinion.

[dark_crystal]

[quote=turasultana;153648]

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

it has never been possible for a butch to be masculine enough for me/QUOTE]

This bit here. Really. Really?

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

I have to agree with turasultana.

If I were to post the inverse in an femme oriented thread, "it has never been possible for a femme to be feminine enough for me," I'm reasonably certain I'd have my ass handed to me on a platter.

While you may have never met a butch you considered masculine enough for you (whatever that means, I didn't realize we were qualifying and quantifying now) doesn't mean it isn't possible.

I've met some very effeminate ftms, and some extremely masculine (including female identified) butches, all exist on a spectrum.

Either way, as a masculine person, I'm not offended by this statement, personally, because I'm extremely comfortable with my own masculinity. I am however, kind of disturbed by it.

I want to add that I am posting from the position that I believe it is not only possible, but far kinder, wiser, and more inclusive to talk about what we love in a certain type of person without stepping on the neck of other identities. I think we can celebrate FTMs without speaking negatively with regard to butches or cisgendered men.

Originally Posted by Chancie

I agree.

And 'not masculine enough'?

I sure hope I'm feminine enough.

because the last two words of my sentence were "for me," i can't imagine how the statement could be seen as me qualifying or quantifying anything in the world besides my own response to my past partners.

I am not talking about identities as concepts and i am not talking about specific individuals and i am not talking about potential individuals that may exist within an identity whom i have not yet met. The sentence was in the past tense and referred only to myself.

i am talking about myself and my past. How can anyone possibly be offended by my experience or my description of my experience? it does not involve anyone except me

[Soft*Silver]

Dear DC.

Your post was fine.

And we move on from here....


Dark Crystal wrote: i am talking about myself and my past. How can anyone possibly be offended by my experience or my description of my experience? it does not involve anyone except me [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/CENTER][/QUOTE]

[nycfem]

What doesn't! (i.e. Sometimes it simply feels that everything attracts me to Ftms!!!)

Sorry, I hadn't been reading the thread and that's what popped into my head.

[Ms. Tabitha]

The attraction comes from within. Like a moth to a flame. FTM's carry themselves differently, with a confidence and a pride that I find attractive.
I admire their strength and I definitely appreciate their male energy. The way he presents himself to others, this is not about putting on a show, in fact his behavior should come from within as does his character and attitude.
His mannerisms prove to be most attractive. Someone with self confidence tempered by a sense of humor, combined with intelligent conversational skills. A great attitude without the arrogance. Good manners and respect for his GF/Partner/Wife as an equal. Attentivness, directness and above all honesty. These things are so attractive and stand out over everything for me.

"Courtesy is as much a mark of a gentleman as courage." - Theodore Roosevelt

[Soft*Silver]

Mr Bent, thank you so much for telling me how wrong I was in the way I interpreted your post and for getting us on the right track again....

[Thinker]

A gentle moderating moment...

Before things get too far off track, let's please focus on the original intent of the thread.

It's possible (and preferred) to state what you *do* like and what *attracts* you to ___________ without tearing down anyone or anything else.

Just focus on the positive, please.

[turasultana]

Originally Posted by softness

Mr Bent, thank you so much for telling me how wrong I was in the way I interpreted your post and for getting us on the right track again....

I'm sorry I know we were asked to keep it on track but I don't want this post to just sit here unchallenged. That's really a condescending way to speak to someone who replied to you in a restrained, respectful manner.

again, sorry Thinker for the derail. I just had to say something.

[Soft*Silver]

just to inform you of my tone in that post was respectful not condescending. Please do not put "tones" to my words that are not there.

And I think if a mod gives a gentle moderation, he means it...

Originally Posted by turasultana

I'm sorry I know we were asked to keep it on track but I don't want this post to just sit here unchallenged. That's really a condescending way to speak to someone who replied to you in a restrained, respectful manner.

again, sorry Thinker for the derail. I just had to say something.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by turasultana

I'm sorry I know we were asked to keep it on track but I don't want this post to just sit here unchallenged. That's really a condescending way to speak to someone who replied to you in a restrained, respectful manner.

again, sorry Thinker for the derail. I just had to say something.

It appears you misinterpreted the post.

Let it rest, and let the original and intended discussion continue. If you have any questions about it, please contact me via PM.

Thinker