Ask a trans person!

[little man]

Originally Posted by theoddz

There have been things posted, here and there, that have been unkind, phobic or some other class of "ism", but we're all individuals, and you just simply cannot pick up and run with every.single.thing. that offends you, either in real time or online. That's life, and a lot of times, the difference in having a peaceful and respectful coexistence with other people and having a life full of hate, venom and negativity. It really is what you make of it.



~Theo~

theo, i wanted to snip this part of your post and just say thank you. i've not been able to articulate this exact thought process to save my life.

i, too, would like to see you post more here (or anywhere). you are thoughtful and articulate and manage to say what i think/feel ... and do so more eloquently than i could. no pressure, though...seeing a post from you is always a treat.

[atomiczombie]

June, as I think about this more, I am feeling somewhat weird about this discussion because Dylan isn't here participating. He is the most vocal person on the site who calls attention to transphobia. Of course this is an issue about all of us and not just about Dylan. The fact remains, his voice is absent and I feel that absence.

I saw what happened in the misogyny thread and some nasty things were said by many people. When AJ and Dylan expressed different points of view on a particular issue regarding transphobia, several people jumped in and decided to take that opportunity to jump on Dylan. Dylan did what he often does, which is strongly defend himself and attack back. I saw people complain that it had become the Dylan thread, which I think is bullshit because if certain people hadn't jumped all over him it wouldn't be. And what bothered me even more, June, was that you said that every thread where Dylan participates becomes the Dylan thread. That was really messed up because it was a personal dig at him and not speaking to the issues.

Yes, it was in the red zone so it's not moderated. That doesn't mean that it's ok to treat a member like that, no matter how you perceive that person as treating you. The way that whole thing went down seemed really unfair and I don't blame anyone who saw transphobia going on there. There were a lot of elements to what was going on, but dumping on the guy who is the most vocal about calling out transphobia, whether you agree with him or not, has an impact, on me as a transguy that feels icky. I say feels and not felt because I still feel icky about it. And now he isn't here at the moment, and I suspect that the whole episode in that thread has a lot to do with that. So June, I think your participation in the Dylan bashing, as not only a member but also a moderator (and I know you weren't moderating him or anyone in that post, just speaking as a member) just adds to the stink of it all.

I applaud you for coming in here and taking the time to ask questions and listen to us, and to try to learn from us. I just need to say that what I saw happen with Dylan doesn't leave me with warm fuzzy feelings about how transguys are treated here. For god's sake, he was calling out transphobia, and he got reamed for it by a handful of members, and then you made your comment. Can you see how that comes across?

[Jet]

(Above)
Precisely why I don't partake in many threads and why I don't feel that "sense of community." I don't like many topics or the way people treat each other.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

June, as I think about this more, I am feeling somewhat weird about this discussion because Dylan isn't here participating. He is the most vocal person on the site who calls attention to transphobia. Of course this is an issue about all of us and not just about Dylan. The fact remains, his voice is absent and I feel that absence.

I saw what happened in the misogyny thread and some nasty things were said by many people. When AJ and Dylan expressed different points of view on a particular issue regarding transphobia, several people jumped in and decided to take that opportunity to jump on Dylan. Dylan did what he often does, which is strongly defend himself and attack back. I saw people complain that it had become the Dylan thread, which I think is bullshit because if certain people hadn't jumped all over him it wouldn't be. And what bothered me even more, June, was that you said that every thread where Dylan participates becomes the Dylan thread. That was really messed up because it was a personal dig at him and not speaking to the issues.

So June,Yes, it was in the red zone so it's not moderated. That doesn't mean that it's ok to treat a member like that, no matter how you perceive that person as treating you. The way that whole thing went down seemed really unfair and I don't blame anyone who saw transphobia going on there. There were a lot of elements to what was going on, but dumping on the guy who is the most vocal about calling out transphobia, whether you agree with him or not, has an impact, on me as a transguy that feels icky. I say feels and not felt because I still feel icky about it. And now he isn't here at the moment, and I suspect that the whole episode in that thread has a lot to do with that. I think your participation in the Dylan bashing, as not only a member but also a moderator (and I know you weren't moderating him or anyone in that post, just speaking as a member) just adds to the stink of it all.

I applaud you for coming in here and taking the time to ask questions and listen to us, and to try to learn from us. I just need to say that what I saw happen with Dylan doesn't leave me with warm fuzzy feelings about how transguys are treated here. For god's sake, he was calling out transphobia, and he got reamed for it by a handful of members, and then you made your comment. Can you see how that comes across?

Because I have avoided posting for a while, I have forgotten how to "snip", however, the aspect of this post I would like to comment on was the "reason" I saw that Dylan was used as an example of sexism on a thread regarding sexism.

I believe it was BonneMaman who pointed out that the thread had veered off course from "sexism and misogyny" to "transphobia" and that she questioned why a male voice had taken over the conversation. That was what I got out of the post that was made that seemed to be the jumping point for what I think AZ sees as bashing Dylan. I don't always agree with Dylan, but I do try to hear him in his battle for trans rights and equality and/or just assisting folks see their own "isms".

Understand please, that at least for me, a discussion regarding sexism ( against women) is not at all the place for a man/male to come in and re-direct. It is seen as just more sexism. Does that make sense?

I have so many questions of a very personal nature that fall right into place with this current conversation, yet like Jet, it feels like sometimes if you have any thoughts/ questions other than those that flow along with the vocal majority , it is wrong to do so. I am trying to learn a new way of asking questions and it is very new and uncomfortable for me to do so. I am grateful to have found the patience and willingness to put myself out there again in order to perhaps gain more patience and tolerance and further understanding.

Frankly, I have not seen this site/ community being unwelcoming to transfolk. I believe very strongly that not unlike the brilliant article Linus posted recently, we all come here with our own set ideas and even when faced with new "facts" we are ( or can be) reluctant to change. It doesn't help when questions ( even asked out of confusion/ frustration) are met with accusations of an "ism". That just doesn't help. It may be "true" or informative, but it does nothing for community building.

I am no longer sure how to ask questions without the risk of being taken wrong when I ask "why do_____" . I appreciate the very frank discussion I see going on here and would like to continue reading as like any other topic I get more out of many voices as opposed to a singular chorus singing the same tune.
Thank you all.
Jess

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Jess

Because I have avoided posting for a while, I have forgotten how to "snip", however, the aspect of this post I would like to comment on was the "reason" I saw that Dylan was used as an example of sexism on a thread regarding sexism.

I believe it was BonneMaman who pointed out that the thread had veered off course from "sexism and misogyny" to "transphobia" and that she questioned why a male voice had taken over the conversation. That was what I got out of the post that was made that seemed to be the jumping point for what I think AZ sees as bashing Dylan. I don't always agree with Dylan, but I do try to hear him in his battle for trans rights and equality and/or just assisting folks see their own "isms".

Understand please, that at least for me, a discussion regarding sexism ( against women) is not at all the place for a man/male to come in and re-direct. It is seen as just more sexism. Does that make sense?

It does make sense. But I think there are 2 ways of looking at it. Dylan saw someone post something that appeared to him to be transphobic. He went into that thread to point that out. Some people saw his pointing that out as him being sexist. He defended himself. And we know what transpired after that. It is a difficult thing for a transguy like me to figure out; should I respect the OP and only address the main topic? What do I do when I see someone say something in a thread about misogyny that appears to me to be transphobic? Do I have to just say nothing for fear that my saying something might be read as "re-directing" or taking over the thread? My point here is that some times there is a no-win situation.

And by the way, you said for a "man/male to come in and re-direct". I hope you know that Linus started that thread, and that men were welcome to post there too.

A few months ago there was a thread all about femmes for femmes. I never posted there because it was expressly for femmes only. I had at the time and still have no issue with that. What made me uneasy was when I read some posts that appeared (and I always say appeared because I allow for the possibility that what I perceive may be wrong) to me to be a bit over-generalizing about masculine people acting in very sexist and disgusting ways. I read these posts and thought, hey, not all guys are like that! I am not like that! It seemed very unfair how we were being characterized as all under the same tent. Instead of posting in the thread I just sat on my feelings and felt icky. I stopped reading it and kind of disappeared from the site for a while because my anxiety was getting worse again. My point in sharing this experience is that I don't blame Dylan for going into the misogyny thread and saying something when he saw something that seemed unfair to him. Was he trying to take over the thread and re-direct it? I didn't see that as his intent. I can see how some others might see it that way, but there's at least 2 sides to everything. I just don't see that it's all so cut and dried.

My only point in bringing up what happened to Dylan is that for me, as a fellow transguy, it does make an impression on me about some of the people on this site. It does in no way change my perception of Jack and Dusa. I still feel welcome by them and that does give me that warm fuzzy feeling.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

It does make sense. But I think there are 2 ways of looking at it. Dylan saw someone post something that appeared to him to be transphobic. He went into that thread to point that out. Some people saw his pointing that out as him being sexist. He defended himself. And we know what transpired after that. It is a difficult thing for a transguy like me to figure out; should I respect the OP and only address the main topic? What do I do when I see someone say something in a thread about misogyny that appears to me to be transphobic? Do I have to just say nothing for fear that my saying something might be read as "re-directing" or taking over the thread? My point here is that some times there is a no-win situation.

And by the way, you said for a "man/male to come in and re-direct". I hope you know that Linus started that thread, and that men were welcome to post there too.

A few months ago there was a thread all about femmes for femmes. I never posted there because it was expressly for femmes only. I had at the time and still have no issue with that. What made me uneasy was when I read some posts that appeared (and I always say appeared because I allow for the possibility that what I perceive may be wrong) to me to be a bit over-generalizing about masculine people acting in very sexist and disgusting ways. I read these posts and thought, hey, not all guys are like that! I am not like that! It seemed very unfair how we were being characterized as all under the same tent. Instead of posting in the thread I just sat on my feelings and felt icky. I stopped reading it and kind of disappeared from the site for a while because my anxiety was getting worse again. My point in sharing this experience is that I don't blame Dylan for going into the misogyny thread and saying something when he saw something that seemed unfair to him. Was he trying to take over the thread and re-direct it? I didn't see that as his intent. I can see how some others might see it that way, but there's at least 2 sides to everything. I just don't see that it's all so cut and dried.

My only point in bringing up what happened to Dylan is that for me, as a fellow transguy, it does make an impression on me about some of the people on this site. It does in no way change my perception of Jack and Dusa. I still feel welcome by them and that does give me that warm fuzzy feeling.

AZ, I do get what you are saying about not knowing whether or not to go in and say something in a thread if you see an active "ism" happening. I really do, because I get the same "icky" feelings when I see certain things also.

While trying not to use Dylan as a specific example, I have seen quite a few folks get "bashed" or as some folks have called it "dog piled" for expressing feelings other than what were of the general tone of those conversations. I think it is really important for me to try to exercise an old cliche' of "principles over personalities" in these situations. Meaning, I ( for example in That conversation in That thread) cannot assume that Dylan was being the spokesperson for every transman or male on this site and cannot base my opinion of the trans experience or lens that transfolk view the world through based upon the statements or actions of ONE person. No more than I can see one person being the spokesperson for lesbians, people of color, differently abled, etc. Does that make sense? I personally have to remember to look at the topic and not at the person(s) posting.

I think what I need to do when I see something icky happening is to assess exactly what it is that is icky about it and perhaps try to address THAT instead of necessarily addressing the person who made the statement. By that, I mean not to engage in the back and forth bantering that has a tendency to end up being name calling and very hurt feelings and usually someone getting banned/ timed out or left feeling ostracized.

Like you , when I see a thread that is "for____ only", I have to figure out if I do have a place in that convo and will engage or not based on that. It is my choice to read it and sit on my feelings or read it and perhaps discuss those feelings with someone if they are really bugging me. I do not feel like I need to monitor those threads for something they "might" say that is anti-"me". That said, I do realize that the sexism/misogyny thread was open to all, as was/is the sexism/misandry thread. I think they are very important conversations to have with everyone because like so many have pointed out, all too often the sexism is often so entrenched in us that it becomes invisible ( unless it isn't there).

I think THIS conversation, that June started is important for everyone to be able to read also, because of the very open nature of responses happening. It really helps me understand the very different and intimate places that transmen are coming from in viewing their particular place in this community. Which to date ( I hate admitting this) has been something I have struggled understanding. I think it is just as important for someone like me who sometimes "gets it" and sometimes doesn't, to be able to ask questions and listen and take part without the fear of being judged or attacked, because frankly, there are quite a few folks like me who need this very type of engagement.

I appreciate your responding in the way you did, by giving examples of your feelings and checking to see if I am indeed hearing you. I hope that I am likewise showing that yes, I do hear you. Your response wasn't snarky or defensive and I really do appreciate that you took the time to read and hear me.

Will return to listening.
Thanks, Jess

[Jet]

I don;t know why it is so hard for people to wrap their minds around transgender. It's very simple: I'm male and in the wrong body. I hate being in the wrong body. That's all. There's really nothing else to get in my book.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Jet

I don;t know why it is so hard for people to wrap their minds around transgender. It's very simple: I'm male and in the wrong body. I hate being in the wrong body. That's all. There's really nothing else to get in my book.

I think it is difficult for some, because they have always been comfortable in the bodies they were born with.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Jet

I don;t know why it is so hard for people to wrap their minds around transgender. It's very simple: I'm male and in the wrong body. I hate being in the wrong body. That's all. There's really nothing else to get in my book.

There are still plenty of people who consider this kind of thinking indicative of mental illness. There is nothing in their experience that can help them relate to, or in anyway understand, the reality of our situation. Never has there been a day in which they hated their anatomy in the way that transgendered/sexed people might.

Most people are incapable of thinking outside their own experience, so I understand and accept that it's hard for them to "wrap their minds around" it. What I don't understand, and won't accept, is their intolerance and continued choice to remain ignorant.

I choose, also, to accept that the burden is on me to help them get past where they are in their thinking. That it is not helpful for me to show them anger, fear or their own hatred in return.