Open Letter: Dear Femme

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

This resonates with me. I am pretty unclear on how we personally have been responsible for this. In my mind I see myself going in the other direction (against the grain) quite a bit. Pushing the use of Female pronouns (for those who prefer them) No "you are boy so you do this automatically and I am the girl so these are my duties" kind of thing. Saying "no Cynthia likes to be called Cynthia, not Sydney or Chris to make you feel more comfortable".

Do you think it was meant in general? or that each and every one of us has contributed? Or is it kind of like racism and we are all implicated? Its the system and there is no escape?

Okay. I'm going to take a stab at this one.

I think "we" have been responsible for the inherent misogyny when "we" do, as a whole, enhance the masculine over the feminine. I put "we" in quotes because I want to make the distinction that I see this as a groupthink thing.

I think that there are those of us who do not do this within our own partnerships or even our own communities, but I wonder if "we" are able to speak our truth when confronted with this in other people's relationships.

(PLEASE NOTE that this example has utterly no bearing in fact and I am using two people whom I know and suspect will not be offended by their starring roles in this example. Again, I have NEVER witnessed this behaviour from them...are we clear?)

For instance, let's say I was at a party where Goofy and Blush were. I saw Goofy interrupt Blush while she was involved with some other femmes in some intense discussion. Goofy called out to Blush (let's assume he didn't even get up) and said, "Get me a beer."

Now let's further assume that Blush excused herself from the conversation to get Goofy his beer without so much as an exasperated look or a menacing glare.

IF I saw that and did not say anything to either one of them would I:

A: Be respecting the dynamic of their relationship?
B: Be complacently approving of the inherent misogyny?

And, while I'm on this subject, why would that scenario be wrong but a reverse of it (Blush interrupting Goofy) possibly not have the same impact?

To me, that would be participating in creating a male-centric environment.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Okay. I'm going to take a stab at this one.

I think "we" have been responsible for the inherent misogyny when "we" do, as a whole, enhance the masculine over the feminine. I put "we" in quotes because I want to make the distinction that I see this as a groupthink thing.

I think that there are those of us who do not do this within our own partnerships or even our own communities, but I wonder if "we" are able to speak our truth when confronted with this in other people's relationships.

(PLEASE NOTE that this example has utterly no bearing in fact and I am using two people whom I know and suspect will not be offended by their starring roles in this example. Again, I have NEVER witnessed this behavior from them...are we clear?)

For instance, let's say I was at a party where Goofy and Blush were. I saw Goofy interrupt Blush while she was involved with some other femmes in some intense discussion. Goofy called out to Blush (let's assume he didn't even get up) and said, "Get me a beer."

Now let's further assume that Blush excused herself from the conversation to get Goofy his beer without so much as an exasperated look or a menacing glare.

IF I saw that and did not say anything to either one of them would I:

A: Be respecting the dynamic of their relationship?
B: Be complacently approving of the inherent misogyny?

And, while I'm on this subject, why would that scenario be wrong but a reverse of it (Blush interrupting Goofy) possibly not have the same impact?

To me, that would be participating in creating a male-centric environment.

Ahhh, OK, that makes total sense. Thank you for explaining with an example. That always helps for me.

It has been difficult for me to speak out on anything really based on my own upbringing....ie. in the South we talk behind people's backs, not to their faces (as a general cultural thing, I know you are also Southern) and the fact that I can be pretty non-confrontational...related to a great number of things, I crave peaceful harmony.

However,
I understand that not saying anything provides tacit approval (implied approval), so I have in the past few years worked (and continue the battle) to speak my mind directly.

Sexism is like racism, every time we encounter this we need to say something.

On the other hand....
It's difficult with the BDSM dynamics in our community that get brought into non-BDSM settings to always know intent. It's a mine field really. It amazes me how often I find myself in just the situation you describe with a friend saying they are not "allowed" to do this or that. I know my eye bows hit the ceiling as I ask "what is this allowed word of which you speak?"

Thanks again, for putting it in terms I can get.

J

PS. Unless there was a sorry for interrupting and a PLEASE mentioned I think either scenario is rude.
PPS, but I do get that with the history sexism, it would be different. Goofy is Trans, right? would it be the same if Goofy were Butch? I think so.

[blush]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

PPS, but I do get that with the history sexism, it would be different. Goofy is Trans, right? would it be the same if Goofy were Butch? I think so.

I agree with you. I think we are speaking about femme counterparts, whether they're butch or trans.

[Diva]

I love this thread.
I love the way the conversation flow is respectful and searching and sane.

Something e said to Kosmo spoke to me, and blush, too....right.....a butch can't answer these questions for us. But I would take this one step further and say NO ONE can answer these questions for me, BUT me. No one can answer them for blush EXCEPT blush...and so on and so forth.

And, while I love this thread...and all the wise words that are put out here ~ convo is a GOOD thing! ~ in the end, it is up to me.

It is up to me to be strong.
It is up to me not to be objectified.
It is up to me not to be a doormat.
It is up to me not to be invisible.
It is up to me not to whine about it.

I am a strong submissivewomanmomteacherdivathangetc. If I am in a relationship, I have no problem saying that I will be supportive of my partner, because I will have had the good sense to have found Someone who will also be supportive of me. (And blush, I know You have that! <smile> )

I hope this hasn't been an offensive post. We are ALL on this journey......for ourselves.....and yet.....in sisterhood.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Diva

It is up to me to be strong.
It is up to me not to be objectified.
It is up to me not to be a doormat.
It is up to me not to be invisible.
It is up to me not to whine about it.

I am a strong submissivewomanmomteacherdivathangetc. If I am in a relationship, I have no problem saying that I will be supportive of my partner, because I will have had the good sense to have found Someone who will also be supportive of me. (And blush, I know You have that! <smile>

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Yeah, my baby and I buck each other up. But for me, I'm speaking to that public and cultural perception that femmes have. The idea that the highest compliment we can pay a femme is to say she is supportive. Yet the highest compliment we can pay our counterparts is to say they are "strong."

I'm speaking in generalities, which is always sometimes true, yanno.

I do totally agree that the answer lies within. Our own truths lie within. But its damn lonely and hard to find those truths. I know that, particularly this last year, I've missed the femme voices in the forums.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by blush

Yeah, my baby and I buck each other up. But for me, I'm speaking to that public and cultural perception that femmes have. The idea that the highest compliment we can pay a femme is to say she is supportive. Yet the highest compliment we can pay our counterparts is to say they are "strong."

I'm speaking in generalities, which is always sometimes true, yanno.

I do totally agree that the answer lies within. Our own truths lie within. But its damn lonely and hard to find those truths. I know that, particularly this last year, I've missed the femme voices in the forums.

I appreciated this post....so much.

And I guess I'm oblivious and/or naive....as I didn't realize that there WAS a 'public & cultural perception' with other femmes.....now....when I lived as a wife in the church of Christ? Oh HELL yeah.....it was that "good little woman" syndrome....can You even imagine me in that role? I was very good. But I nearly lost my sanity because I nearly lost myself.

And now You know.

Indeed. To find our own truths can sometimes be lonely. But once they're found, they're so liberating.

I love this thread!

[blush]

Originally Posted by Lynn

.

As blush said, I don't want to be identified by who I choose to fuck. It's one aspect of me. I agree that labels are useful. Labels and language are meaningful and powerful.That is why I have yet to find myself comfortable with being identified as a femme. I've said elsewhere, and probably here...to me, and for me, femme is an attribute, not an identity.

How do I contribute to the idea that femme is defined or refined by butch? I don't know. I don't equate the masculinity of a butch with male-centrict?(that means "patriarchal"--right). I have NO expectatation of any trappings (I think they're trappings) of stereotypical male-female roles and duties in my relationship, but I don't have any problem where they would appear to be so, for me or for anyone else. I think we've come to the point where we have the right to be, without apology.
YES! YES! YES!
I've been working on this for far too long...might I be self-censoring? Perhaps. So, it's time to post.

Femme certainly means different things to different people. For some femmes, it is their gender, for others, it is their sexuality, and for others, it is a descriptor.

For me, masculinity simply describes the energy. Our counterparts are more masculine than femmes.

My understanding of male-centric is a "centering" or anchoring of our community(butch-femme) around masculinity. It differs, in my mind, from patriarchy because we do not depend upon a "father-figure."

Originally Posted by June

Because I am often not "A good girl", therefore, I must be... masculine? Because if Femme = Feminine, doesn't Butch = masculine? At least to some degree? For a lot of us?

And each of us has to reconcile it within ourselves, and if we are brave we talk about it, lay it on the table, so to speak and hope that others will try to understand outside of their own belief system.

Yeah...It's that whole "you throw ALMOST as good as a boy."

Originally Posted by Diva

I appreciated this post....so much.

And I guess I'm oblivious and/or naive....as I didn't realize that there WAS a 'public & cultural perception' with other femmes.....now....when I lived as a wife in the church of Christ? Oh HELL yeah.....it was that "good little woman" syndrome....can You even imagine me in that role? I was very good. But I nearly lost my sanity because I nearly lost myself.

And now You know.

Indeed. To find our own truths can sometimes be lonely. But once they're found, they're so liberating.

I love this thread!

Aren't there always private and public perceptions of just about anything? The public/private perception of a teacher? A doctor? A mother? A wife?

Laughing at you as a COC wife...JesusChristonacracker...