Open Letter: Dear Femme

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by kat6071

I think it's not the way we are seen by others, rather than the way we see ourselves and how we let them treat us, that matters.

This is precisely the way that I see it.

We lose our autonomy only to the degree that we allow it.

And as Arwen goes on to say, particularly for mothers (and lovers), we may have to disabuse our children and partners of the notion that we ever belonged to them. I do not believe, and have never believed, that my child belongs to me. She came through me. I am her guardian as long as she is with me and until she can suffice herself.

This is what *I* do: I suffice myself.

Sometimes this is read as selfishness. And it may be. But I believe it is more true that I am simply a solitary creature. My roles are of a temporal nature relative to who and what I am. Don't misread, my love is fierce. But it does not define me. My mind defines me before my heart does. Unless we are speaking to my compassion. This also defines me. But never in the sense that I am giving myself away for it.

That is less compassion than martyrdom. And I am no martyr.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by evolveme

This is what *I* do: I suffice myself.

Sometimes this is read as selfishness. And it may be. But I believe it is more true that I am simply a solitary creature. My roles are of a temporal nature relative to who and what I am. Don't misread, my love is fierce. But it does not define me. My mind defines me before my heart does. Unless we are speaking to my compassion. This also defines me. But never in the sense that I am giving myself away for it.

That is less compassion than martyrdom. And I am no martyr.

Oh can you PLEASE needlepoint that on a pillow for me? That last line.

Selfishness and meanness are such GOOD qualities to have in moderation. By selfishness I mean be selfish about your time and space and needs. Put yourself first so others who watch you can learn to put themselves first.

BULB! That's what Mama was doing. She was showing me by doing. I didn't learn it so well but I can always revisit those lessons.

Meanness to some is honesty to others is anger to someone else. I'd rather have friends in my world who are upfront and honest and who will give me the respect of discussing things. I am MEAN about this concept of honesty. I have to be otherwise I turn into a woman I do not like.

And I must be selfish and like myself better than anyone else, yes?

This becomes more than a word -- femme. Femme is part of who I am, yes, but it is not nearly all of who I am.

In a strange seque, I am reminded of a pillow my aunt gave my mother. It said:

It it's not one thing--it's your mother.

I think now I understand just why Mama found that so hysterical.

And why she always hid that pillow when my grandmother came to visit.

[Apocalipstic]

Thank you powerful, strong, brave Sisters and Allies.

Thank you for speaking your truth.

My truth?

Has involved pretty pink font and pink avatars which make me smile and somehow rise above the sometimes shattering pain of daily existence. (I stopped with the pink font so people would read my posts, yes it made me sad, and yes I see that stopping to please others makes me a co-dependent pleaser )

Sees that no one is better than anyone else in terms of class or gender or race or education.

Knows that insisting on living in a kind and harmonious way is not weak.

Speaks her mind firmly and directly when something is important.

Refuses to spend time on revenge and anger.

Tries to consistently speak to issues she finds important even if people would rather her be silent.

Loves who she loves.

I really resonate with what so many of you have to say. e, Arwen, Adele, Julieis, Diva, June. In so many ways you are my heroes.

I admit that meanness frightens and freezes me. I never thought of it as bowing out to masculinity.

more later.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by evolveme

I do not believe, and have never believed, that my child belongs to me. She came through me. I am her guardian as long as she is with me and until she can suffice herself.

This is what *I* do: I suffice myself.

Sometimes this is read as selfishness. And it may be. But I believe it is more true that I am simply a solitary creature. My roles are of a temporal nature relative to who and what I am. Don't misread, my love is fierce. But it does not define me. My mind defines me before my heart does. Unless we are speaking to my compassion. This also defines me. But never in the sense that I am giving myself away for it.

That is less compassion than martyrdom. And I am no martyr.

The bolded words: Perfect.

My mother and I have long had this kind of dialogue. I love seeing it in print, the words she and I have exchanged for years. Thank you for having the same words.

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

The bolded words: Perfect.

My mother and I have long had this kind of dialogue. I love seeing it in print, the words she and I have exchanged for years. Thank you for having the same words.

It makes me so happy to hear you share this, Lovely Sassy. Knowing that an adult mother and daughter exist somewhere and speak of this kind of relating to one another fills me with something profound. I can only hope that my daughter and I will continue to have the kind of relationship that we do, and that it will evolve into a woman-to-woman relating someday.

My feeling that she does not belong to me - that I do not possess her - is almost a spiritual point of view. I recognize her wholeness. I honor it.

This is, I think, the baseline of what the last couple of pages have been about.

We want our wholeness to be honored.

[SassyLeo]

Originally Posted by evolveme

It makes me so happy to hear you share this, Lovely Sassy. Knowing that an adult mother and daughter exist somewhere and speak of this kind of relating to one another fills me with something profound. I can only hope that my daughter and I will continue to have the kind of relationship that we do, and that it will evolve into a woman-to-woman relating someday.

My feeling that she does not belong to me - that I do not possess her - is almost a spiritual point of view. I recognize her wholeness. I honor it.

This is, I think, the baseline of what the last couple of pages have been about.

We want our wholeness to be honored.

Yes, absolutely. And that is what it has become, a woman-to-woman relating. And spiritual point of view is exactly how she describes it. We talk about how we kind of birthed each other...how I am not "hers", but that we get to be teachers for each other, guardians of learning.

My mother doesn't necessarily identify as Femme. She appears very feminine and people have described her as Femme, however she has mixed feelings about labels related to appearance and believes she loves who she loves, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, identity, etc. (She taught me some good stuff ). She was with my father for more than 20 years and came out when I was a teen. Then dating several women who all identified very differently. She has told me over the years that she did not know how to articulate her feelings, desire, and how she viewed herself in relation to "queerness" (my word). However, there is within her a strong feeling of wanting to be seen in her entirety as who she is, not in relation to who she dates, fucks, be-friends; what she wears, how she does her hair, etc. She struggles using the words lesbian, dyke, even queer. She wants to be seen without all the other descriptors attached. She mostly calls herself a "spiritual human" (and woman, mother, etc). I asked her if she had thought about choosing the word Femme to describe/define herself (as a "queer" word - label/un-label) and use her own descriptors? As in, what we are all talking about here...what Femme is to us? Not that I was specifically telling her she needed to label herself or "Femme" herself, but look at it from the angle that we are all talking about... she smiled and nodded and said she had not thought of it that way...

I feel so blessed to be able to have these kinds of conversations with her...and I hope that you are also able to...or get to when the time is right

[evolveme]

Originally Posted by SassyLeo

Yes, absolutely. And that is what it has become, a woman-to-woman relating. And spiritual point of view is exactly how she describes it. We talk about how we kind of birthed each other...how I am not "hers", but that we get to be teachers for each other, guardians of learning.

My mother doesn't necessarily identify as Femme. She appears very feminine and people have described her as Femme, however she has mixed feelings about labels related to appearance and believes she loves who she loves, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, identity, etc. (She taught me some good stuff ). She was with my father for more than 20 years and came out when I was a teen. Then dating several women who all identified very differently. She has told me over the years that she did not know how to articulate her feelings, desire, and how she viewed herself in relation to "queerness" (my word). However, there is within her a strong feeling of wanting to be seen in her entirety as who she is, not in relation to who she dates, fucks, be-friends; what she wears, how she does her hair, etc. She struggles using the words lesbian, dyke, even queer. She wants to be seen without all the other descriptors attached. She mostly calls herself a "spiritual human" (and woman, mother, etc). I asked her if she had thought about choosing the word Femme to describe/define herself (as a "queer" word - label/un-label) and use her own descriptors? As in, what we are all talking about here...what Femme is to us? Not that I was specifically telling her she needed to label herself or "Femme" herself, but look at it from the angle that we are all talking about... she smiled and nodded and said she had not thought of it that way...

I feel so blessed to be able to have these kinds of conversations with her...and I hope that you are also able to...or get to when the time is right

I have been amazed by the story of you and your dad, but this is the first time I've seen you write about your mother. I didn't know that she was not strictly heterosexual, or that you might share something so intimately in common with her. What an amazing story you have, and clearly, what an amazing mother... and mother/daughter bond.

[Lynn]

Originally Posted by evolveme

This is, I think, the baseline of what the last couple of pages have been about.

We want our wholeness to be honored.

That's what I'm trying to say, I think. To be honored isn't the same as "validated." I want to validate myself, without relying on the approval and acceptance of others. And, it isn't even that I want to be honored for WHO I am. I want to be honored THAT I am. Does that make any sense? I agree, absolutely, that we should all be accepted for how we identify and who we say we are. But, I'm trying to address something deeper than that.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by evolveme

This is precisely the way that I see it.

We lose our autonomy only to the degree that we allow it.

And as Arwen goes on to say, particularly for mothers (and lovers), we may have to disabuse our children and partners of the notion that we ever belonged to them. I do not believe, and have never believed, that my child belongs to me. She came through me. I am her guardian as long as she is with me and until she can suffice herself.

This is what *I* do: I suffice myself.

Sometimes this is read as selfishness. And it may be. But I believe it is more true that I am simply a solitary creature. My roles are of a temporal nature relative to who and what I am. Don't misread, my love is fierce. But it does not define me. My mind defines me before my heart does. Unless we are speaking to my compassion. This also defines me. But never in the sense that I am giving myself away for it.

That is less compassion than martyrdom. And I am no martyr.

Oh my. This hits home. I am being told daily by my child's father and even members of my family how selfish I am for leaving my marriage and letting myself be me. I do not subscribe to the notion that being a good mother means that I give up me, my needs, my dreams.

I do believe I belong to my child and she belongs to me until she is old enough to take care of herself and love as a grown woman. I don't think that means that I have to lose my identity as a woman.

I have been shocked at the harshness of the criticism I have recieved from other mothers. There is a policing that goes on.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by evolveme

Oh, Lady, I know how to get your gendertrashy ass right where I want it.

Don't you doubt me.

,

e

P.S. Apologies to The Arwen for any discomfort caused by overt girl-flirting. <wink>

EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW GROSS! Gag!

grin. Not really. I am uncomfortable when it is overt sexual flirting from another femme directed at me. It reminds me of how inadequate I am as a lesbian. (whole 'nother thread...don't go there)

However if you brain flirt with me, you're on...my list already.

Originally Posted by blush

And can I just say that the dialogue in this thread is some of the best I've read in a longlong time. I love femme brains.

This was really really funny to me because right before I read this post by you, I was thinking something very similar. It's been a long time since I've seen a thread go this many pages with nearly no uproar to speak of.

What is WRONG with you people?

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I have been shocked at the harshness of the criticism I have recieved from other mothers. There is a policing that goes on.

Here's a thought for you to try on. See what you think.

Maybe they are harsh because you are doing what they cannot. Maybe we are crueler and meaner and try to rein in harder those that do what we secretly wish we could?

[Diva]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Oh my. This hits home. I am being told daily by my child's father and even members of my family how selfish I am for leaving my marriage and letting myself be me. I do not subscribe to the notion that being a good mother means that I give up me, my needs, my dreams.

I do believe I belong to my child and she belongs to me until she is old enough to take care of herself and love as a grown woman. I don't think that means that I have to lose my identity as a woman.

I have been shocked at the harshness of the criticism I have recieved from other mothers. There is a policing that goes on.

We are bound together by this.

I left 20 years ago and heard it to the point where I really thought I would (or DID) lose my mind. The guilt trips from every member of my family and his, the accusations, he had me tested for AIDS (because I was told that the insurance we had required it. It was a lie.), the coersion between my ex-husband & my therapist to try and convince me that I was not a lesbian, the middle-of-the-night surprise visits to my home ~ camera-in-hand, the outings (without my knowledge) and the shunning were (and still are) unbelieveable to me. I was followed by PI's, I had restraining orders against me and then later, my partner.

If I wrote it all down it would be a great made~for~TV movie.....people would not believe it....it is so bizarre.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Diva

We are bound together by this.

I left 20 years ago and heard it to the point where I really thought I would (or DID) lose my mind. The guilt trips from every member of my family and his, the accusations, he had me tested for AIDS (because I was told that the insurance we had required it. It was a lie.), the coersion between my ex-husband & my therapist to try and convince me that I was not a lesbian, the middle-of-the-night surprise visits to my home ~ camera-in-hand, the outings (without my knowledge) and the shunning were (and still are) unbelieveable to me. I was followed by PI's, I had restraining orders against me and then later, my partner.

If I wrote it all down it would be a great made~for~TV movie.....people would not believe it....it is so bizarre.

and you *should* write it. i believe all of our stories are valuable and a testament to where we've been and how far we need to go (as a society).

[julieisafemme]

I am so sorry you know about this too. Honestly I was shocked at the reaction from people. Part of it is that I did not wait the proscibed amount of time before dating and that this was somehow not ok for my child. This was from my Dad who cheated on my Mom while married and then married his mistress! But see that is ok because he is a man. Me I needed to wear the widow weeds for 10 years and then go about the business of being me. I was faithful to my husband until the day I left my home. I had the great good luck, fortune and blessing to meet a wonderful person. What a shameless lesbian I am!! I wonder also what the response would have been if I had met Straighty McStraighterson biomale man dude.

Does it still hurt Diva? Somedays I feel so worn down I just want to dissappear.

Originally Posted by Diva

We are bound together by this.

I left 20 years ago and heard it to the point where I really thought I would (or DID) lose my mind. The guilt trips from every member of my family and his, the accusations, he had me tested for AIDS (because I was told that the insurance we had required it. It was a lie.), the coersion between my ex-husband & my therapist to try and convince me that I was not a lesbian, the middle-of-the-night surprise visits to my home ~ camera-in-hand, the outings (without my knowledge) and the shunning were (and still are) unbelieveable to me. I was followed by PI's, I had restraining orders against me and then later, my partner.

If I wrote it all down it would be a great made~for~TV movie.....people would not believe it....it is so bizarre.

[always2late]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I am so sorry you know about this too. Honestly I was shocked at the reaction from people. Part of it is that I did not wait the proscibed amount of time before dating and that this was somehow not ok for my child. This was from my Dad who cheated on my Mom while married and then married his mistress! But see that is ok because he is a man. Me I needed to wear the widow weeds for 10 years and then go about the business of being me. I was faithful to my husband until the day I left my home. I had the great good luck, fortune and blessing to meet a wonderful person. What a shameless lesbian I am!! I wonder also what the response would have been if I had met Straighty McStraighterson biomale man dude.

Does it still hurt Diva? Somedays I feel so worn down I just want to dissappear.

I cannot speak for Diva..only for myself. Yes, it hurts. My parents do not openly condemn me, but they have, in hundreds of small, cutting ways, become allies with my ex-husband, the father of my son, who to this day still threatens and looks for ways to take my son from me because of who I am. As for the outside world...even those people who claim to be tolerant still ask about my "lifestyle" and what effect "all this" has on my son (like it is some contagion that should be in quarantine).

[blush]

Originally Posted by apretty

does anyone else feel that her personal 'femme' is being abused (under-appreciated) when we're accused of being less-than supportive (or of blatant misogyny)?

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Kind of yes, when all the conversation seems to be about being supportive, making sure everyone feels OK about themselves.

We co-dependently try to please everyone and maybe lose ourselves in the midst?

Is that what you mean?

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

This resonates with me. I am pretty unclear on how we personally have been responsible for this. In my mind I see myself going in the other direction (against the grain) quite a bit. Pushing the use of Female pronouns (for those who prefer them) No "you are boy so you do this automatically and I am the girl so these are my duties" kind of thing. Saying "no Cynthia likes to be called Cynthia, not Sydney or Chris to make you feel more comfortable".

Do you think it was meant in general? or that each and every one of us has contributed? Or is it kind of like racism and we are all implicated? Its the system and there is no escape?

Originally Posted by always2late

I cannot speak for Diva..only for myself. Yes, it hurts. My parents do not openly condemn me, but they have, in hundreds of small, cutting ways, become allies with my ex-husband, the father of my son, who to this day still threatens and looks for ways to take my son from me because of who I am. As for the outside world...even those people who claim to be tolerant still ask about my "lifestyle" and what effect "all this" has on my son (like it is some contagion that should be in quarantine).

Anyone want to add comments? I tried to hit the last questions we've had in the thread. If I missed a question, it's not intentional.