Proposed Mosque Near Ground Zero

[Dylan]

Islam and Muslims (as a whole) didn't blow up the World Trade Center anymore than christianity and christians blew up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City.

You think anyone in Oklahoma (or the country for that matter) is cryin' because there's a church near the OK Federal Building?

I'll even bet there's LOTS of churches near abortion clinics christians like to blow up in the name of god too. Anyone cryin' about that?



I Doubt It,
Dylan

[Soon]

By objecting to the building of this 15 story community center--with a gym, swimming pool, performance center and mosque--there is an implication that one believe all Muslims are terrorists and the Muslim community--at large--is to be blamed for 9/11.



Partial List of Muslim 9/11 Victims:

Note: This list is as yet incomplete and unconfirmed. It has been compiled from the Islamic Circle of North America, the Newsday victims database, and reports from other major news organizations. The victims' ages, employers, or other personal information is included when available, along with links to further information or photos.

Samad Afridi
Ashraf Ahmad
Shabbir Ahmad (45 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and 3 children)
Umar Ahmad
Azam Ahsan
Ahmed Ali
Tariq Amanullah (40 years old; Fiduciary Trust Co.; ICNA website team member; leaves wife and 2 children)
Touri Bolourchi (69 years old; United Airlines #175; a retired nurse from Tehran)
Salauddin Ahmad Chaudhury
Abdul K. Chowdhury (30 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Mohammad S. Chowdhury (39 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and child born 2 days after the attack)
Jamal Legesse Desantis
Ramzi Attallah Douani (35 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
SaleemUllah Farooqi
Syed Fatha (54 years old; Pitney Bowes)
Osman Gani
Mohammad Hamdani (50 years old)
Salman Hamdani (NYPD Cadet)
Aisha Harris (21 years old; General Telecom)
Shakila Hoque (Marsh & McLennan)
Nabid Hossain
Shahzad Hussain
Talat Hussain
Mohammad Shah Jahan (Marsh & McLennan)
Yasmeen Jamal
Mohammed Jawarta (MAS security)
Arslan Khan Khakwani
Asim Khan
Ataullah Khan
Ayub Khan
Qasim Ali Khan
Sarah Khan (32 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Taimour Khan (29 years old; Karr Futures)
Yasmeen Khan
Zahida Khan
Badruddin Lakhani
Omar Malick
Nurul Hoque Miah (36 years old)
Mubarak Mohammad (23 years old)
Boyie Mohammed (Carr Futures)
Raza Mujtaba
Omar Namoos
Mujeb Qazi
Tarranum Rahim
Ehtesham U. Raja (28 years old)
Ameenia Rasool (33 years old)
Naveed Rehman
Yusuf Saad
Rahma Salie & unborn child (28 years old; American Airlines #11; wife of Michael Theodoridis; 7 months pregnant)
Shoman Samad
Asad Samir
Khalid Shahid (25 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald; engaged to be married in November)
Mohammed Shajahan (44 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
Naseema Simjee (Franklin Resources Inc.'s Fiduciary Trust)
Jamil Swaati
Sanober Syed
Robert Elias Talhami (40 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Michael Theodoridis (32 years old; American Airlines #11; husband of Rahma Salie)
W. Wahid

[PapaC]

You beat me to the punch. TY, Dylan.

Originally Posted by Dylan

Islam and Muslims (as a whole) didn't blow up the World Trade Center anymore than christianity and christians blew up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City.

You think anyone in Oklahoma (or the country for that matter) is cryin' because there's a church near the OK Federal Building?

I'll even bet there's LOTS of churches near abortion clinics christians like to blow up in the name of god too. Anyone cryin' about that?



I Doubt It,
Dylan

[Medusa]

These whole "Mosque that shouldnt be there" debates are springing from racism and intolerance and helping to foster a very unhealthy "us" versus "them" mentality.
What is sad is that the "us" who are fighting so diligently to keep the Trade Center ground as "America - Fuck Yeah" as possible want people to believe that you are "unAmerican" or "unChristian" or whatever if you think that it's racist to make a sqwuak over a Mosque being built near the grounds.
The even sadder thing is that the "them" that are supposed to be this evil mass-killing entity of "Down with America!!" lost friends and family in the bombings as well (since not everyone who worked at the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, or who was on one of the planes was the lily-white hyper-Christians that are portrayed in the ridiculously cheesy "The Statue of Libbertee is shakin' her fi-yust!!" country songs and propaganda that is so rampant since that time).

"They" are not the enemy.

Ignorance is.

[Glenn]

I designed a beautiful memorial to be built there as well as others, and I shall believe to my death that a memorial should stay there.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

I designed a beautiful memorial to be built there as well as others, and I shall believe to my death that a memorial should stay there.

What better memorial could there be for those that died than a community center that would fly in the face of the what people on *both* sides would be the preferred result. The jihadis would like nothing more than for this Muslim community center *not* be built. If it isn't, then they can look at their brethren and say, "see! Did we not tell you that all of America's promise of religious freedom does not apply to Muslims? Did we not try to pull the scales from your eyes that America, despite the honeyed words, does not truly welcome diversity? Here some of our brethren in America wanted to build a community center in a city where many Muslims live and it could not be done. Now do you believe that we must strike against America?" There are Christians who do not want this community center built because having a community center normalizes Muslims. It is one thing to get people to fear and ostracize Sharif, when he is nothing more than a collection of stereotypes made from a pastiche of movies from Lawrence of Arabia to the latest summer action shoot-em-up. It is quite another thing to get people to fear and ostracize Faud, the young father who takes his girls to the community center twice a week for swimming and who sits in the park playing chess.

The groups concerned about sharia law in America (which is just a smokescreen to justify a conclusion they've already arrived at) have as their selling point fear of Muslims. What's amazing about this is that it's not *just* this community center. In Tennessee there's a similar flap over a different Muslim community center. So what happens in New York has potential ramifications across the country *beyond* the public relations stupidity that denying the permit would be. If New York City, the most diverse city in the country, does not permit this community center then the folks in Tennessee will be emboldened in not permitting a community center or mosque built in their backyards. And that can spread like a wave.

One fascinating thing is that this is make all of these folks who are so quick to pronounce themselves more Constitutional-than-thou, is that it is forcing them to come out and say what many of us presumed they have meant all along vis a vis the Establishment clause. While the words are "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion..." what they want it to mean is "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of Christian religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." In other words what they mean by 'freedom of religion' is really, "freedom to practice the sect of Christianity you wish". But they don't mean freedom of religion.

Ultimately, if this community center doesn't get built both groups of fanatics-Christian and Muslim--will get precisely what it is they are hoping for. I can think of no greater memorial to those who were sacrificed at the altar of intolerance than to build this community center.

[Glenn]

Yes Aj I agree that a learning center is good. A memorial should be built there too.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

Yes Aj I agree that a learning center is good. A memorial should be built there too.

Why? Isn't there going to be a memorial where WTC 1 and 2 stood? Isn't that whole area supposed to be one big memorial? If so (and that's my understanding of the situation although I might be wrong) why is the site of the original WTC not memorial enough? Am I missing something?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Why? Isn't there going to be a memorial where WTC 1 and 2 stood? Isn't that whole area supposed to be one big memorial? If so (and that's my understanding of the situation although I might be wrong) why is the site of the original WTC not memorial enough? Am I missing something?

Likely she meant at actual Ground Zero, aren't they still arguing what to build there?

Thats cool Popcorn submitted a drawing!

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by popcorninthesofa

Yes Aj I agree that a learning center is good. A memorial should be built there too.

Popcorn - Are you advocating for a memorial at the site of WTC disaster? Or at the site that is 2 blocks away where folks want to build the community center?

[Apocalipstic]

I believe in division of church and state. It should have no bearing what buildings go in 2 blocks from the site.

[morningstar55]

what religion was .. Timothy McVeigh ?? should maybe what ever his was , should we have the same view on what is being built in OK , where he blew up that building and killed all them people and kids??
i dont think all muslims are to blame, ...just like are all catholics to blame to be child molestors seeing how there's a lot of priest getting caught these days?? and have not read anywhere that they are foreigners either.. im not rooting for them or this in NYC but im just trying to look at this from all views.

wait.... just found McVeighs religion.. Throughout his childhood, he and his father were Roman Catholic and regularly attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York..

Throughout his childhood, he and his father were Roman Catholic and regularly attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by morningstar55

what religion was .. Timothy McVeigh ?? should maybe what ever his was , should we have the same view on what is being built in OK , where he blew up that building and killed all them people and kids??
i dont think all muslims are to blame, ...just like are all catholics to blame to be child molestors seeing how there's a lot of priest getting caught these days?? and have not read anywhere that they are foreigners either.. im not rooting for them or this in NYC but im just trying to look at this from all views.

wait.... just found McVeighs religion.. Throughout his childhood, he and his father were Roman Catholic and regularly attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York..

Throughout his childhood, he and his father were Roman Catholic and regularly attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York

What sides are there to look at??? Why can't a Mosque be built or even a community center or hell something anything with Muslim ties?

Why? We have churches at every block corner, why can't all of us who do not follow Christian oppression be allowed to build a place wherever there is a space?

Extremists were responsible for 9-11 I just don't understand how people don't get this.

Honestly there is no all sides kinds of views, because that day ALL of us regardless of race, religion or gender felt it, were impacted, and remember that very day that our government used a tragedy to install fear into Americans about someone who is not WHITE nor Christian. THAT is the reality of it and it's still crippling this country to this very day.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

What sides are there to look at??? Why can't a Mosque be built or even a community center or hell something anything with Muslim ties?

Why? We have churches at every block corner, why can't all of us who do not follow Christian oppression be allowed to build a place wherever there is a space?

Extremists were responsible for 9-11 I just don't understand how people don't get this.

Honestly there is no all sides kinds of views, because that day ALL of us regardless of race, religion or gender felt it, were impacted, and remember that very day that our government used a tragedy to install fear into Americans about someone who is not WHITE nor Christian. THAT is the reality of it and it's still crippling this country to this very day.

That ridiculous and scary Patriot Act!

We still don't have those rights back.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by morningstar55

what religion was .. Timothy McVeigh ?? should maybe what ever his was , should we have the same view on what is being built in OK , where he blew up that building and killed all them people and kids??
i dont think all muslims are to blame, ...just like are all catholics to blame to be child molestors seeing how there's a lot of priest getting caught these days?? and have not read anywhere that they are foreigners either.. im not rooting for them or this in NYC but im just trying to look at this from all views.

wait.... just found McVeighs religion.. Throughout his childhood, he and his father were Roman Catholic and regularly attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York..

Throughout his childhood, he and his father were Roman Catholic and regularly attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York

And why is it we all weren't aware from the beginning what McViegh's religion was? Why is it the media never shouted out, "OMG, We're Under Attack From HomeGrown Christians! Run For Your Lives!"

Why is it the media, people, Amuricans, etc NEVER went on some rampage about Catholocism, Christianity, The Bible, etc? And how come NO ONE is up in arms about the fact that there's a church right next to where the Federal Building was, AND there's a church within one block...that's TWOOOOOOOOO churches! The horrah of it all...having churches of the bomber's affiliation RIGHT next to the site! How disrespectful (to whom I don't really know, but bigotry and prejudice [and xtian privilege] doesn't always have to be logical or rational, so...)

But now that I've brought it up...to whom is it 'disrespectful' if there's a Muslim community center or mosque or a Muslim ANYTHING really? WHO is being disrespected? Serious question.


Dylan

And how come there was never any (excused) panic after Oklahoma City in which (white) people ran around beating and killing people who 'looked like' the bomber (i.e. militaristic white males with brownish hair worn in a 'high and tight' style...you know, cuz that's what allllllllllllll xtian bombers look like, and they should all be treated like the terrorists they truly are)

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Dylan

And why is it we all weren't aware from the beginning what McViegh's religion was? Why is it the media never shouted out, "OMG, We're Under Attack From HomeGrown Christians! Run For Your Lives!"

Why is it the media, people, Amuricans, etc NEVER went on some rampage about Catholocism, Christianity, The Bible, etc? And how come NO ONE is up in arms about the fact that there's a church right next to where the Federal Building was, AND there's a church within one block...that's TWOOOOOOOOO churches! The horrah of it all...having churches of the bomber's affiliation RIGHT next to the site! How disrespectful (to whom I don't really know, but bigotry and prejudice [and xtian privilege] doesn't always have to be logical or rational, so...)

But now that I've brought it up...to whom is it 'disrespectful' if there's a Muslim community center or mosque or a Muslim ANYTHING really? WHO is being disrespected? Serious question.


Dylan

Ummm.

Sara Palin?

[dreadgeek]

Dylan:

As I love pointing out (and hate that I live in a world where it is true TO be pointed out):

Each white Christian who performs a given act of violence is *that* white Christian. A singular incident unconnected to anything or anyone else. The KKK is N singular, bad apples, none of whom are connected to one another and all of them coincidentally gathering under the banner of that organization, while at the same time being *completely* isolated from one another.

Every non-white and every non-Christian who performs a given act of violence is ALL of that group, X, and all other members of that group either understand why the action took place and/or is even now walking over their own parents to get in line to be the *next* member of that group X to perform such an act.

No one mentioned McVeigh's religion because he wasn't *really* a Christian--no matter what he might have said about himself and, looked at in the correct frame, wasn't *really* a white man either. We can know this because no Christian or white man could *ever* do the acts that McVeigh did and since we know he performed those acts, we can assume that he was neither white nor Christian. On the other hand, John Lee Malvo (the DC sniper) is all black men and the only reason that, for instance, my father wasn't *also the DC sniper is that he was already deceased by that point and even *then* it might be that all the black men who were already dead rose from the grave in order to queue up to be the next freeway sniper.

I know, I know, it looks like a double-standard but only when viewed in the wrong (read liberal) light. Actually a consistent standard is being applied to all non-whites and non-Christians and a consistent standard is being applied to all white men who are Christians so there's no double-standard! Isn't FOX news logic fun?

Originally Posted by Dylan

And why is it we all weren't aware from the beginning what McViegh's religion was? Why is it the media never shouted out, "OMG, We're Under Attack From HomeGrown Christians! Run For Your Lives!"

Why is it the media, people, Amuricans, etc NEVER went on some rampage about Catholocism, Christianity, The Bible, etc? And how come NO ONE is up in arms about the fact that there's a church right next to where the Federal Building was, AND there's a church within one block...that's TWOOOOOOOOO churches! The horrah of it all...having churches of the bomber's affiliation RIGHT next to the site! How disrespectful (to whom I don't really know, but bigotry and prejudice [and xtian privilege] doesn't always have to be logical or rational, so...)

But now that I've brought it up...to whom is it 'disrespectful' if there's a Muslim community center or mosque or a Muslim ANYTHING really? WHO is being disrespected? Serious question.


Dylan

And how come there was never any (excused) panic after Oklahoma City in which (white) people ran around beating and killing people who 'looked like' the bomber (i.e. militaristic white males with brownish hair worn in a 'high and tight' style...you know, cuz that's what allllllllllllll xtian bombers look like, and they should all be treated like the terrorists they truly are)

[morningstar55]

Hey everyone........ hope no ones mad at me for starting this thread.....
i just heard and read about it this morning on the news and thought it might be a good topic for discussion...... just sayin

[dreadgeek]

From Talkingpointsmemo.com:


"It seems the anti-mosque protesters in California have torn a few pages from the Abu Ghraib field manual. Protesters of a planned mosque and Muslim community center in Riverside, California are calling on locals to come to a rally outside an existing mosque with their pet dogs because, as the protest organizer says, Muslims "hate dogs." "We will not be submissive," the notice proclaimed. "Our voices are going to be heard!" The alert went on to question what its authors described as Islamic beliefs. It suggested that participants sing during the rally because Muslim "women are forbidden to sing." It suggested that rally participants bring dogs because Muslims "hate dogs.""

The idea of preserving a memorial to the people who died at the WTC is a smokescreen and a convenient excuse. This is really about *Muslims* integrating into the community--nothing more, nothing less.

Cheers
Aj

[UofMfan]

While I understand the sentimental impact if this, I cannot understand the blatant ignorance and racism that would make this even an issue.

For the eight Bush years 9/11 was used as a tool to backtrack the US in Human Rights, Civil Liberties, etc. The scare tactics and the racial profiling that followed are still used today, as is evident by this thread.

I agree with Dylan, Muslims were not responsible for 9/11, and his analogy it is right on target.

I also want to thank Manul for bringing up an excellent point.

Funny how racism makes all of us throw the very laws the US was built on out the window.