Male ID butch vs. FTM??

SelfMadeMan · 08-14-2010, 01:17 PM

Funny how when you state your opinion on the FTM side of things in a thread asking for opinions on the differences between (male ID'd) Butches and FTMs, you get your shit jumped for your viewpoint. I just find that very interesting. This kind of thing is exactly why a great number of transitioning/transitioned FTM's go stealth and separate themselves from the GLBT community. Makes me question why on earth I still try to be a part of it...

So here is my .02 on the whole damn issue and if it pisses people off so be it... I believe 100% in the Harry Benjamin SOC, and it pisses me off that so many therapists/physicians are getting away from it. I don't think that anyone not planning on transitioning should be allowed hormones. Period.

Corkey · 08-14-2010, 01:31 PM

Well aren't we a tad judgmental.
If you have an issue with how Ender or any other Male here ID's, that is your issue. There's room for everyone at this table. Thank goodness your approval isn't necessary.

SelfMadeMan · 08-14-2010, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corkey

Well aren't we a tad judgmental.
If you have an issue with how Ender or any other Male here ID's, that is your issue. There's room for everyone at this table. Thank goodness your approval isn't necessary.

How is believing in the HBSOC being judgemental? So if my opinion differs from yours, I'm judgemental... how convenient. Those standards are there for a reason, and the process has worked for YEARS. If someone doesn't intend to transition, why then should they be on male hormones?

Corkey · 08-14-2010, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

How is believing in the HBSOC being judgmental? So if my opinion differs from yours, I'm judgemental... how convenient. Those standards are there for a reason, and the process has worked for YEARS. If someone doesn't intend to transition, why then should they be on male hormones?

There are plenty of reasons for being on T, especially when one gets older, or has certain medical issues. You are assuming that the rest of the world cares about that "standard" it doesn't. You are the one making assumptions about people you don't even know. Like I said you aren't the one we have to answer to, you don't hold the power over others. Those "standards" are gatekeeping at it's finest.

SelfMadeMan · 08-14-2010, 01:51 PM

I wasn't referring to someone who has been told by their Doctor that they need to be on male hormomes for medical reasons... that's a whole other issue. I'm talking about taking male hormones by choice, not by medical necessity. And I didn't suggest you need MY approval. I said I believe in the HBSOC and that Physicians should have to follow those guidelines. I am still entitled to my beliefs, no? As usual - state an opinion that isn't popular and you get ripped. I have thick skin though... so slam me all you want, this isn't my first rodeo.

Corkey · 08-14-2010, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

I wasn't referring to someone who has been told by their Doctor that they need to be on male hormomes for medical reasons... that's a whole other issue. I'm talking about taking male hormones by choice, not by medical necessity. And I didn't suggest you need MY approval. I said I believe in the HBSOC and that Physicians should have to follow those guidelines. I am still entitled to my beliefs, no? As usual - state an opinion that isn't popular and you get ripped. I have thick skin though... so slam me al you want, this isn't my first rodeo.

You are stating your opinion like it is some law. It isn't. People chose to do all sorts of things, one of them is whether to take T or not. That is a personal choice, not something you get to decide for another. Doctors have there place, it isn't to decide for their patient what they can and can not do. If you think I'm slamming you, you have an opinion of yourself I do not. There is no better than, no less than, no ID is greater than another and you don't get to tell others how to live their lives. Simple.
Now pardon me I have things to do like take a shower and use my T.

Stacy · 08-14-2010, 01:54 PM

If he's being judgemental of anyone it's the doctors totally disregarding the HBSOC. He's not judging those taking T who have not gone through what he had to go through. I'm quite sure if Michael could have gotten the hormones and that M on his driver's license an easier way, he would have taken the easier way. He is just stating that he believes the SOC is a good system which should be followed, in his opinion.

Corkey · 08-14-2010, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deviant

If he's being judgemental of anyone it's the doctors totally disregarding the HBSOC. He's not judging those taking T who have not gone through what he had to go through. I'm quite sure if Michael could have gotten the hormones and that M on his driver's license an easier way, he would have taken the easier way. He is just stating that he believes the SOC is a good system which should be followed, in his opinion.

Gatekeeping.

EnderD_503 · 08-14-2010, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deviant

I believe I stated that it is how I personally break it down and what it means to ME. By being a member of this site it doesn't automatically mean you're willing to just accept whatever, I just choose to not make issues of the things I don't accept. I find far too often when I share my opinion about any damn thing other than fun or fluff, someone inevitably jumps my shit about it. You can claim whatever ID you choose on this site. I'm still curious how many claim those ID's in the real world. Just because I'm on this site, doesn't mean I am just blindly accepting of anything. I didn't even bother reading your whole rant, I know it would just piss me off. However, I wanted it to be clear that I stated right off the bat, that it was how I personally view it. I never claimed to be Harry Benjamin or the all knowing guru of all things trans.

If you'd bothered to read my whole post you'd actually get the answer to your question about me claiming my id in the real world. No I don't say "hey guys, I'm a male id'd butch, ask me how!" I simply say that I'm male because male is what I am. I can't put a gun to their head and get them to call me what I call myself, and I shouldn't have to. They have just as much of a right to their opinion as I do. And I have a right to defend myself. Here people tend to "get it" (or so I thought) more, so I thought I might be able to say something about my history. My bad.

If you'd read the post, you'd also have read that I don't care if you accept me or not. I don't believe in blind acceptance. I'm not asking you to blindly accept me. Think whatever you want, but like I said in my last post, I also have the right to respond. You gave your reasons why you don't see me as male. I responded to those claims.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Funny how when you state your opinion on the FTM side of things in a thread asking for opinions on the differences between (male ID'd) Butches and FTMs, you get your shit jumped for your viewpoint. I just find that very interesting. This kind of thing is exactly why a great number of transitioning/transitioned FTM's go stealth and separate themselves from the GLBT community. Makes me question why on earth I still try to be a part of it...

So here is my .02 on the whole damn issue and if it pisses people off so be it... I believe 100% in the Harry Benjamin SOC, and it pisses me off that so many therapists/physicians are getting away from it. I don't think that anyone not planning on transitioning should be allowed hormones. Period.

I'm not even going to bother because you obviously didn't even bother to read my post. But for the record, this is why I feel the need more and more to separate myself from the LGBT community. Because you're always what other people want you to be. Many lesbians tell you you need to be a lesbian, because you supposedly only think you're male because society pressures you to be, or because you think masculine = male (I'm not that dense, thank you) or because people are pressuring you to transition (quite the opposite). Others tell you you aren't male because you weren't born with the right genitals. Others tell you you don't belong in this community because you're very existence isn't compatible with feminism and the LGBT community. Society tells you you're not even human. Not sane. Not normal. Not this. Not that. I'm tired of being told I don't exist. I'm tired of being shot at from all fronts.

I'm not telling you who you are or who you should be. Sure go ahead and give your opinion on the subject, but don't expect me not to give my opinion back. The problem I have with your perspective is that your perspective, were it reality, would deny people the right to be themselves all because they choose not use the same terminology you do. And yeah, while you have the right to make that claim, I have the right to speak against it.

As for the differences between FtMs and male id'd butches, the point myself and others were making before is that, depending on the individual, there may very well not be a clear cut difference. It depends on the individual because not everyone sees their identity the same way.

RavynTuqiri · 08-14-2010, 03:08 PM

Hmmm...how can one expect the world outside of the GLBT community to
accept our individuality when we ourselves can not embrace our own?

I may walk with a friend down the same path and share the same experiences but I do not expect that friend to come away with the same views, thoughts, feelings...memories. How can I...we do not share the same eyes nor the same heart.

I value the differing opinions on the subject because I want to know...does not mean we should be passing judgment on an opinion for being different. There is no right and wrong here...

Corkey · 08-14-2010, 03:15 PM

So here is my .02 on the whole damn issue and if it pisses people off so be it... I believe 100% in the Harry Benjamin SOC, and it pisses me off that so many therapists/physicians are getting away from it. I don't think that anyone not planning on transitioning should be allowed hormones. Period. [/COLOR][/B]

Really, I think you two need to look over each others posts and answer this.

Gatekeeping is so passe'

RavynTuqiri · 08-14-2010, 03:30 PM

So then....what do you all think of a third gender? If a third gender
exists, then the rules of each specific gender do not inherently apply
nor do the rules of switching from one gender to the other.

Corkey · 08-14-2010, 03:34 PM

Far from pissed but thank you Thinker.

DapperButch · 08-14-2010, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RavynTuqiri

So then....what do you all think of a third gender? If a third gender
exists, then the rules of each specific gender do not inherently apply
nor do the rules of switching from one gender to the other.

If:

Sex = male, female, intersexed

Gender = man, woman, Butch, etc.

Did you mean third sex?

(Side note: Many see butch as inherently third gendered.).

RavynTuqiri · 08-14-2010, 04:44 PM

A third gender in which the "rules" attempting to be applied
by the two main stream genders do not apply and by which
members who identify alternatively can apply their own rules,
definitions, and labels as they see fit.

The only requirement of the third gender is the understanding that
the third gender is grey and is up to each individual to color their own
palette as they see fit...while keeping open to marvel at the beauty
of the other portraits being painted around you.

08-14-2010, 01:31 PM	#2
Corkey Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Human Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Very Married Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Where I want to be Posts: 8,155 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 47,491 Thanked 29,268 Times in 6,637 Posts Rep Power: 21474859	Well aren't we a tad judgmental. If you have an issue with how Ender or any other Male here ID's, that is your issue. There's room for everyone at this table. Thank goodness your approval isn't necessary. __________________ "Many proposals have been made to us to adopt your laws, your religion, your manners and your customs. We would be better pleased with beholding the good effects of these doctrines in your own practices, than with hearing you talk about them". ~Old Tassel, Chief of the Tsalagi (Cherokee)

08-14-2010, 01:54 PM	#7
Stacy Member How Do You Identify?: Queer Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Minnesota Posts: 475 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 396 Thanked 920 Times in 225 Posts Rep Power: 8450335	If he's being judgemental of anyone it's the doctors totally disregarding the HBSOC. He's not judging those taking T who have not gone through what he had to go through. I'm quite sure if Michael could have gotten the hormones and that M on his driver's license an easier way, he would have taken the easier way. He is just stating that he believes the SOC is a good system which should be followed, in his opinion. __________________ "Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." ~Dr. Suess http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/q...star_green.gif

08-14-2010, 03:15 PM	#11
Corkey Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Human Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Very Married Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Where I want to be Posts: 8,155 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 47,491 Thanked 29,268 Times in 6,637 Posts Rep Power: 21474859	So here is my .02 on the whole damn issue and if it pisses people off so be it... I believe 100% in the Harry Benjamin SOC, and it pisses me off that so many therapists/physicians are getting away from it. I don't think that anyone not planning on transitioning should be allowed hormones. Period. [/COLOR][/B] Really, I think you two need to look over each others posts and answer this. Gatekeeping is so passe' __________________ "Many proposals have been made to us to adopt your laws, your religion, your manners and your customs. We would be better pleased with beholding the good effects of these doctrines in your own practices, than with hearing you talk about them". ~Old Tassel, Chief of the Tsalagi (Cherokee)

08-14-2010, 03:34 PM	#13
Corkey Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Human Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Very Married Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Where I want to be Posts: 8,155 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 47,491 Thanked 29,268 Times in 6,637 Posts Rep Power: 21474859	Far from pissed but thank you Thinker. __________________ "Many proposals have been made to us to adopt your laws, your religion, your manners and your customs. We would be better pleased with beholding the good effects of these doctrines in your own practices, than with hearing you talk about them". ~Old Tassel, Chief of the Tsalagi (Cherokee)

08-14-2010, 01:17 PM	#1
SelfMadeMan Member How Do You Identify?: Transsexual Man Preferred Pronoun?: Male Relationship Status: Married to The Woman of My Dreams <3 Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Minnesota Posts: 802 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 796 Thanked 2,668 Times in 527 Posts Rep Power: 18972346	Funny how when you state your opinion on the FTM side of things in a thread asking for opinions on the differences between (male ID'd) Butches and FTMs, you get your shit jumped for your viewpoint. I just find that very interesting. This kind of thing is exactly why a great number of transitioning/transitioned FTM's go stealth and separate themselves from the GLBT community. Makes me question why on earth I still try to be a part of it... So here is my .02 on the whole damn issue and if it pisses people off so be it... I believe 100% in the Harry Benjamin SOC, and it pisses me off that so many therapists/physicians are getting away from it. I don't think that anyone not planning on transitioning should be allowed hormones. Period.

08-14-2010, 01:51 PM	#5
SelfMadeMan Member How Do You Identify?: Transsexual Man Preferred Pronoun?: Male Relationship Status: Married to The Woman of My Dreams <3 Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Minnesota Posts: 802 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 796 Thanked 2,668 Times in 527 Posts Rep Power: 18972346	I wasn't referring to someone who has been told by their Doctor that they need to be on male hormomes for medical reasons... that's a whole other issue. I'm talking about taking male hormones by choice, not by medical necessity. And I didn't suggest you need MY approval. I said I believe in the HBSOC and that Physicians should have to follow those guidelines. I am still entitled to my beliefs, no? As usual - state an opinion that isn't popular and you get ripped. I have thick skin though... so slam me all you want, this isn't my first rodeo.

08-14-2010, 03:08 PM	#10
RavynTuqiri Member How Do You Identify?: Butch/Boi Preferred Pronoun?: Anything but it... Relationship Status: Hide n go Seek Join Date: May 2010 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 123 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 338 Thanked 223 Times in 74 Posts Rep Power: 1464163	Hmmm...how can one expect the world outside of the GLBT community to accept our individuality when we ourselves can not embrace our own? I may walk with a friend down the same path and share the same experiences but I do not expect that friend to come away with the same views, thoughts, feelings...memories. How can I...we do not share the same eyes nor the same heart. I value the differing opinions on the subject because I want to know...does not mean we should be passing judgment on an opinion for being different. There is no right and wrong here...

08-14-2010, 03:30 PM	#12
RavynTuqiri Member How Do You Identify?: Butch/Boi Preferred Pronoun?: Anything but it... Relationship Status: Hide n go Seek Join Date: May 2010 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 123 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 338 Thanked 223 Times in 74 Posts Rep Power: 1464163	So then....what do you all think of a third gender? If a third gender exists, then the rules of each specific gender do not inherently apply nor do the rules of switching from one gender to the other.

08-14-2010, 04:44 PM	#15
RavynTuqiri Member How Do You Identify?: Butch/Boi Preferred Pronoun?: Anything but it... Relationship Status: Hide n go Seek Join Date: May 2010 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 123 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 338 Thanked 223 Times in 74 Posts Rep Power: 1464163	A third gender in which the "rules" attempting to be applied by the two main stream genders do not apply and by which members who identify alternatively can apply their own rules, definitions, and labels as they see fit. The only requirement of the third gender is the understanding that the third gender is grey and is up to each individual to color their own palette as they see fit...while keeping open to marvel at the beauty of the other portraits being painted around you.