Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Here it is. Male ID'd Butch....for ME. Not transitioning, male, butch. Butch is male as much as it is female. I am not female I am male. I will retain Butch. I am Transgendered.
I have to ask if anyone has bothered to read any other the Brothers here who are Male ID'd Butches, or if they come to the table with preconceived notions of how others should be? Not necessarily you HB.

oh I'm not asking for justification! Not my bed. lol.

Corkey... I know you are trying and I actually really appreciate your effort but I'm afraid I'm still slightly confused. I respect your tie to the word and your proud use of it, that I can hear in your tone. Basically, you are what used to be called TG Butch in my Old Use Dictionary. Fair enough. That use of butch I understand. So far from what I've read from others TG Butch = Male ID'd Butch. No rug ripped out from under me yet.

I'm feeling archaic and I'm not even 45...

Thanks for helping me out, I know it's not your job.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Here it is. Male ID'd Butch....for ME. Not transitioning, male, butch. Butch is male as much as it is female. I am not female I am male. I will retain Butch. I am Transgendered.
I have to ask if anyone has bothered to read any other the Brothers here who are Male ID'd Butches, or if they come to the table with preconceived notions of how others should be? Not necessarily you HB.

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

oh I'm not asking for justification! Not my bed. lol.

Corkey... I know you are trying and I actually really appreciate your effort but I'm afraid I'm still slightly confused. I respect your tie to the word and your proud use of it, that I can hear in your tone. Basically, you are what used to be called TG Butch in my Old Use Dictionary. Fair enough. That use of butch I understand. So far from what I've read from others TG Butch = Male ID'd Butch. No rug ripped out from under me yet.

I'm feeling archaic and I'm not even 45...

Thanks for helping me out, I know it's not your job.

Not so fast, HB! <chuckle>

I am a TG Butch....meaning not male nor female in sex. And Butch is my gender (gender = woman, man, Butch, etc). I think that many TG Butches use this definition.

I separate out the terms transgendered from transsexed.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Not so fast, HB! <chuckle>

I am a TG Butch....meaning not male nor female in sex. And Butch is my gender (gender = woman, man, Butch, etc). I think that many TG Butches use this definition.

I separate out the terms transgendered from transsexed.

Hey, Dapper-

I think this is really important. However, I am not either, but have had conversations with folks that are very clear about these distinctions for themselves. I can't speak to this, really, but, I do have a personal concern about not wanting mis-information to be floating around about these distinctions. This could be (without even meaning it to be) dismissive to our transsexed members. This is just a complex set of variables and does have bio-physiological and medical parameters to understand.

Anyway, glad to see this distinction clarified. Maybe someone with knowledge about this will offer information so that the distinction does not get lost in assumptions. This can get very sensitive.

[Corkey]

For me
Transgender = who I am
Transexual = how I fuck

My sex isn't my gender and my gender isn't my sex.
And I just went and confused a whole lot of folks.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Corkey

For me
Transgender = who I am
Transexual = how I fuck

My sex isn't my gender and my gender isn't my sex.
And I just went and confused a whole lot of folks.

LOL!!!!

ok that helps.

transgender = who you are, totally understand.

transexual = how you fuck. I think I get. you mean in hetero - meaning fucking opposite sex to how you see your own body?

sorry corkey it's getting personal and feel free to tell me to fuck off and mind me own biz!

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

LOL!!!!

ok that helps.

transgender = who you are, totally understand.

transexual = how you fuck. I think I get. you mean in hetero - meaning fucking opposite sex to how you see your own body?

sorry corkey it's getting personal and feel free to tell me to fuck off and mind me own biz!

bing bing bing we have a winner!!!! Precisely.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by Corkey

bing bing bing we have a winner!!!! Precisely.

woohoo! I get the giant stuffed panda!!!

We've even had some guys who have "transitioned" here in this very thread who claim they don't see themselves as male despite the fact that they've "transitioned" (sorry for the quotations, I just dislike that word) physically and even changed their gender legally.

see that, I'm more familiar with. The term I was told by a few I know/knew was FtQ/M
"transitioning" to their own queerly defined sex/gender (just matching things up better). I personally like the word if it's used in a ritual sense rather than a medical sense as I've known people to "make transitions" to very different stages of their life to celebrate achievements or what not. And running the gauntlet (transition) to their desired "state." that doesn't even sound quite right either. nevermind.

They use FtM as messy imprecise short hand. I'm not saying everyone does, but the individuals I'm thinking of did.

I'm by no means not trying to say I know much, I'm only trying to... ah... contextualise my knowledge/ignorance divide so people know where I'm coming from. Reflexivity

I'm learning. Thanks for the patience to everyone so far in allowing me to participate in this space.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Hey, Dapper-

I think this is really important. However, I am not either, but have had conversations with folks that are very clear about these distinctions for themselves. I can't speak to this, really, but, I do have a personal concern about not wanting mis-information to be floating around about these distinctions. This could be (without even meaning it to be) dismissive to our transsexed members. This is just a complex set of variables and does have bio-physiological and medical parameters to understand.

Anyway, glad to see this distinction clarified. Maybe someone with knowledge about this will offer information so that the distinction does not get lost in assumptions. This can get very sensitive.

Yes, personally, for me, if I was transsexual (meaning FTM), I would never use the term transgender. It would throw things off.

I have seen the word transgendered used in quite a few ways:

1) an umbrella term for FTMs, genderqueers, crossdressers (of the non-trans persuasion), etc. I am pretty certain this was the first usage of the term

2) For people who tend to see themselves as between sexes - male/female

3) other ways


I'm #2 and think that there are enough of us around to shift things this way! lol

The only problem with the term (which I talked about in another thread on another site), is that it has the word gender in it when really in definition #2 we are talking about a person's sex. So, really we need another term (and no, genderqueer is not the same thing to me...and again, there is that pesky gender word again when really referring to a person's sex!)

Anyway, my initial point was going to be that I think that if I was transsexed that it would bother me if the word transgendered was used when describing me. They are NOT the same thing and I would feel misunderstood/misrepresented, I think.

Just my two cents of rambling for ya...

[imperfect_cupcake]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Not so fast, HB! <chuckle>

I am a TG Butch....meaning not male nor female in sex. And Butch is my gender (gender = woman, man, Butch, etc). I think that many TG Butches use this definition.

I separate out the terms transgendered from transsexed.

yes and more popular use of that term. And in that, seperating transgender from transsexed. which my brain really thanks you for. that's the one I "come of age" with.

Corkey's use still slightly confuses me as I'm not quite certain of the underlaying premise of his terms, but I don't really need to completely understand. it's sort of close enough and it's not really all that important - Corkey is still completely Corkey, regardless of if I can follow it with my own upbringing of terms or not.

my mind is probably geared to non-specifics better. maybe I'm just a generalist, blurry person. I get along better with really gappingly wide terms.
It's why, ever though I'm fairly gender fluid I can't be arsed with defining it (too muuuuch wooork. lazy.) and just go with generalist "femme" with no qualifiers. I also don't care if I'm called she or sie.

I do actually really appreciate the effort people are taking to help me understand though!! jesus. that's actually pretty damn nice. So thank you, Dapper x

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Not so fast, HB! <chuckle>

I am a TG Butch....meaning not male nor female in sex. And Butch is my gender (gender = woman, man, Butch, etc). I think that many TG Butches use this definition.

I separate out the terms transgendered from transsexed.

Haha, and so we come full circle Every label is different for everyone. There is no widespread or clear cut definition that applies to how everyone applies their own identity.

And so to the question the OP initially asked, we're back to the beginning. What is the difference between a male id'd butch and an FtM? Well, what's the difference between one FtM and another. Not every FtM sees themselves the same way or views the label FtM the same way. We've even had some guys who have "transitioned" here in this very thread who claim they don't see themselves as male despite the fact that they've "transitioned" (sorry for the quotations, I just dislike that word) physically and even changed their gender legally. Same way that not every male id'd butch understands that identity the same way. Some of us identify as 100% male, others feel differently. Or male but not in the same way someone born biologically male might consider themselves male (which is a whole other kettle of fish, since we shouldn't assume that every single biologically born male understands themselves in the same way as though they're all carbon copies of one another.). Some of us plan on transitioning/are transitioning/have transitioned while others have no such plan to do so while still considering themselves male. Some of us like the colour blue, others like yellow. Some of us hate brussel sprouts, others devour them like they're god's gift to humanity.

My point: sure we all have commonalities and dissimilarities. I may have more in common with someone who identifies as FtM than with someone who identifies as male id'd butch (talking about experiences, identity etc. here), or I may have more in common with another male id'd butch than with another FtM. There might not actually be a huge difference or any difference at all beyond terminology depending on the individual. Or the terminology and being male might be all we have in common. Or not. Often in order for discussions to occur there needs to be agreement on a common vocabulary...the problem is that having a common vocabulary with identical meanings doesn't really work when talking about how people understand themselves or identify themselves to others.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Often in order for discussions to occur there needs to be agreement on a common vocabulary...the problem is that having a common vocabulary with identical meanings doesn't really work when talking about how people understand themselves or identify themselves to others.

Yes this is quite difficult when people have their own personal meanings for things. You don't associate stone butch with woman or lesbian, yet I am a stone butch, woman and lesbian. I know many other stone butches who are also women and lesbians.

Dapper says many consider butch to be inherently transgender. I am not at all transgender and I am a butch. I think to call me transgender would be inaccurate and would not help people to understand what transgender means for those who really are. Yet I am most definitely butch.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes this is quite difficult when people have their own personal meanings for things. You don't associate stone butch with woman or lesbian, yet I am a stone butch, woman and lesbian. I know many other stone butches who are also women and lesbians.

Dapper says many consider butch to be inherently transgender. I am not at all transgender and I am a butch. I think to call me transgender would be inaccurate and would not help people to understand what transgender means for those who really are. Yet I am most definitely butch.

And you don't consider yourself male ID'd. And that is fine with me, just another color in the spectrum.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Corkey

And you don't consider yourself male ID'd. And that is fine with me, just another color in the spectrum.

Yes, agreed Corkey.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes, agreed Corkey.

Just as Butch has a spectrum, so does Transgender, those who are on it will have their own identity and definition of who They are. Isn't diversity fun.

[julieisafemme]

I know for myself a lot of the frustration and confusion comes when trying to define my partner's gender within the context of male and female. Sometimes it is more defining what he is not. He is not a woman. Never was and never felt like one. He is a transmasculine butch. That is his gender. Not female. Not male. He has legally transitioned and yet still retains butch as his gender. He does not use the term FtM to define himself.

If feels uncomfortable to me when we discuss how others choose to change their bodies. The problem I have seen with the Harry Benjamin guidelines is that they are too rigid in defining gender and the wide range that encompasses.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes this is quite difficult when people have their own personal meanings for things. You don't associate stone butch with woman or lesbian, yet I am a stone butch, woman and lesbian. I know many other stone butches who are also women and lesbians.

Dapper says many consider butch to be inherently transgender. I am not at all transgender and I am a butch. I think to call me transgender would be inaccurate and would not help people to understand what transgender means for those who really are. Yet I am most definitely butch.

No, no, no. I said inherently THIRD gendered. Very different! And many do view butches this way, just like there are many who don't.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

No, no, no. I said inherently THIRD gendered. Very different! And many do view butches this way, just like there are many who don't.

Well I am not third gendered either. It would be inaccurate to describe me as third gender and to say all butches are third gendered would not be any more true than saying all are transgendered.

[BullDog]

Well, I have had the same difficulty as HB with understanding the term male identified butch, whereas TG Butch has always made sense to me. I am not sure they mean the exact same thing and it will vary from individual to individual. I have always associated male= biological sex and man/woman/butch/femme etc = gender, so male being used in what seems to me to be gender terms does confuse me.

I just got into the habit that if someone says they are male then I consider them male. It doesn't have to do with biology, surgery, transitioning, hormones, etc. It has to do with who they say they are. Not everyone has the same options or makes the same decisions based on how to align their physical body and legal status with their gender, biological sex or physical body attributes. I think many who consider themselves to be male id'd butches- it is more about their mind than actual physical body, or where the two meet. Ender did talk about that.

I was reading something today about the Nikki Araguz case. It wasn't written by a scientist but it did make sense to me. The person was talking about how we tend to exaggerate the role that reproductive organs play in determining biological sex, when it fact they are actually, in many ways, a minor component of the physical body. There is of course reproduction of the species, which is quite important, but in terms of how we relate to our bodies our genitals are not the be all, end all. Then there's the fact that I'm a woman and have a cock whether it's strapped on or not.

OK the last paragraph may not make a lot of sense, but anyway I think biological sex is more than about what the textbook definitions of male and female are, lol. First of all we all know that intersex does exist. Also, there may be scientific basis for biological sex, but most of what we understand our biological sex and physical bodies to be and mean come from cultural and personal understanding. Most of us are not scientists.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well I am not third gendered either. It would be inaccurate to describe me as third gender and to say all butches are third gendered would not be any more true than saying all are transgendered.

Bully I don't think Dapper is saying that. Third gender is as much an identity on the spectrum as the rest of the identifications folks use to describe who they are to an audience that understands the concepts of gender.
Make since?

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

No, no, no. I said inherently THIRD gendered. Very different! And many do view butches this way, just like there are many who don't.

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well I am not third gendered either. It would be inaccurate to describe me as third gender and to say all butches are third gendered would not be any more true than saying all are transgendered.

True, it would be inaccurate. Which is why I didn't say that.

<---very confused.