Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Ohhh, ok, I think I get what you are saying, now.

You are saying that you disagree with the concept that butches are inherently third gendered. You were saying that this cannot be so b/c you are butch and you are not third gendered. Am I understanding you correctly?

Yes, I don't believe all butches are third gendered. I also don't believe all butches are transgendered. I think it is misleading to say butch is inherently a third gender or transgender. A butch may or may not be third gender. A third gender person may or may not be butch.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes, I don't believe all butches are third gendered. I also don't believe all butches are transgendered. I think it is misleading to say butch is inherently a third gender or transgender. A butch may or may not be third gender. A third gender person may or may not be butch.

Ok in the context of this thread is where Dapper is using "inherently". No not all butches are third gendered, nor are they female, or male or transgendered. They are all over the spectrum and in the context of this male id'd/ FTM thread it may make more since than a strictly female lesbian butch thread. Yes? No?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Ok in the context of this thread is where Dapper is using "inherently". No not all butches are third gendered, nor are they female, or male or transgendered. They are all over the spectrum and in the context of this male id'd/ FTM thread it may make more since than a strictly female lesbian butch thread. Yes? No?

Yes, perhaps it may be more applicable when applied to male butches/FTMs, although I think there are plenty of FTMs who don't consider themselves to be third gender. Not sure if all male id'd butches do.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes, perhaps it may be more applicable when applied to male butches/FTMs, although I think there are plenty of FTMs and perhaps also male id'd butches who don't consider themselves to be third gender or transgender.

You may be correct, but so is Dapper. That's the beauty of each individual having their say in how they perceive themselves.

When trying to pidgin hole a group there's bound to be those who refuse to comply. YEY! There are no set ground rules, no set in stone ways of being. To each their own.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Corkey

You may be correct, but so is Dapper. That's the beauty of each individual having their say in how they perceive themselves.

When trying to pidgin hole a group there's bound to be those who refuse to comply. YEY! There are no set ground rules, no set in stone ways of being. To each their own.

I just don't think butches are inherently third gender. That is all. I don't even think Dapper necessarily thinks that either. So I never did have a quarrel with Dapper.

Inherent means an essential characteristic, so no, I would say not true about all butches, but may be truer for more male id'd butches but not all. I am not sure what the third in third gender is supposed to be referring to. I think there are lots more than just three genders (woman, man, butch, femme, etc etc).

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I just don't think butches are inherently third gender. That is all. I don't even think Dapper necessarily thinks that either. So I never did have a quarrel with Dapper.

Inherent means an essential characteristic, so no, I would say not true about all butches, but may be truer for more male id'd butches but not all. I am not sure what the third in third gender is supposed to be referring to. I think there are lots more than just three genders (woman, man, butch, femme, etc etc).

Oh Bully there are many more, that you don't know of them is something I think you will have to investigate on your own. Inherently... in the context of this thread I don't find issue with. Remember you are talking to and about those with whom you don't identify. Our since of self will be much different that yours. Just as mine is different than an Lesbian ID'd Female Butch. I think you and I have had this discussion before, yes? Just because the english dictionary doesn't have the words, doesn't mean there aren't other words in another language, some not spoken that have more definition than what we in the US use.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Oh Bully there are many more, that you don't know of them is something I think you will have to investigate on your own. Inherently... in the context of this thread I don't find issue with. Remember you are talking to and about those with whom you don't identify. Our since of self will be much different that yours. Just as mine is different than an Lesbian ID'd Female Butch. I think you and I have had this discussion before, yes? Just because the english dictionary doesn't have the words, doesn't mean there aren't other words in another language, some not spoken that have more definition than what we in the US use.

Corkey I don't understand what your issue is with me. Not all butches are third gender, not all third gender are butches. That is all.

[Soon]

I don't know if it's just where I am from, but I have never heard of male - Id (or trans) butches until I joined these sites a few years ago.

I *thought* butches were masculine lesbians.

Well, that former notion of butch has expanded, but, honestly, it is only on these sites that I have heard of people Id'ing as butch AND male (or even trans too)--where there is no acknowledgement of female in conjunction with the ID of butch I guess is what I am trying to (poorly?) express.

Deviant wrote of her curiosity concerning people who have transitioned and retain butch as part of their identity.

This prompted me to wonder what lesbian butches (if anything) think of those who have physically transitioned from F to M and, yet, also retain the ID of butch?

I'm not sure if there's anyone besides Bulldog who id's as a lesbian butch on this thread, so I don't want to put you on the spot Bully, but I was curious if butches had any thoughts or feelings on the retention of butch as an ID for those who have transitioned.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I don't know if it's just where I am from, but I have never heard of male - Id (or trans) butches until I joined these sites a few years ago.

I *thought* butches were masculine lesbians.

Well, that former notion of butch has expanded, but, honestly, it is only on these sites that I have heard of people Id'ing as butch AND male (or even trans too)--where there is no acknowledgement of female in conjunction with the ID of butch I guess is what I am trying to (poorly?) express.
Deviant wrote of her curiosity concerning people who have transitioned and retain butch as part of their identity.

This prompted me to wonder what lesbian butches (if anything) think of those who have physically transitioned from F to M and, yet, also retain the ID of butch?

I'm not sure if there's anyone besides Bulldog who id's as a lesbian butch on this thread, so I don't want to put you on the spot Bully, but I was curious if butches had any thoughts or feelings on the retention of butch as an ID for those who have transitioned.

Jo, I am surprised there as been no response to this post. I have been an out Butch for 38 years. Maybe this is in part why I cannot easily trade in my identity because I have "transitioned." Where and when I came out as a teenager may have been much more of an influence on my internal process of how I saw myself in gender and my sexual orientation. From my small corner of the world, "Butches" were not considered to be like other "women." We did not go about in our lives proclaiming to be "lesbians." In fact "lesbians" did not see us as part of "the community." Much has changed now. Previously in my thinking it was a given that I as a Butch was not "woman" in the same way as my identical twin sister, my mother or other women.

Very briefly in my personal history I did finally use the term "lesbian" to identify myself in a photography showing where my image was to be represented with many other Latinos/Latinas. Back then I wanted the heterosexual, lesbian and gay middle class that would primarily be viewing this show to have no doubt that I was indeed of the queer variety. I did not have the vocabulary nor knowledge that I have today about gender and sexuality.

For me, and only for me, Transmasculine Butch and Transman are very much the same. For me to clarify I am a "Transman" denotes, I was not born a cisgendered male. Transitioning has led me to greater self examination that I did not do in depth before I started the transition process. I have given much thought and taken action regarding my own and others, sexism, misogyny, racism and what it means to be a feminist.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Jo, I am surprised there as been no response to this post. I have been an out Butch for 38 years. Maybe this is in part why I cannot easily trade in my identity because I have "transitioned." Where and when I came out as a teenager may have been much more of an influence on my internal process of how I saw myself in gender and my sexual orientation. From my small corner of the world, "Butches" were not considered to be like other "women." We did not go about in our lives proclaiming to be "lesbians." In fact "lesbians" did not see us as part of "the community." Much has changed now. Previously in my thinking it was a given that I as a Butch was not "woman" in the same way as my identical twin sister, my mother or other women.

Very briefly in my personal history I did finally use the term "lesbian" to identify myself in a photography showing where my image was to be represented with many other Latinos/Latinas. Back then I wanted the heterosexual, lesbian and gay middle class that would primarily be viewing this show to have no doubt that I was indeed of the queer variety. I did not have the vocabulary nor knowledge that I have today about gender and sexuality.

For me, and only for me, Transmasculine Butch and Transman are very much the same. For me to clarify I am a "Transman" denotes, I was not born a cisgendered male. Transitioning has led me to greater self examination that I did not do in depth before I started the transition process. I have given much thought and taken action regarding my own and others, sexism, misogyny, racism and what it means to be a feminist.

Greyson, Soon's question was not ignored. I answered her privately. I myself am a lesbian and butch and have not felt lesbians ostracizing me or feeling that I was not a woman or that I was not part of the lesbian community. So our perspective and experience is different.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Greyson, Soon's question was not ignored. I answered her privately. I myself am a lesbian and butch and have not felt lesbians ostracizing me or feeling that I was not a woman or that I was not part of the lesbian community. So our perspective and experience is different.

Bully, I really was not being specific to you. I know our experiences are and have been different and I also think the both of us see ourselves as part of this community and can live with differences. I was not trying to single you out.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Bully, I really was not being specific to you. I know our experiences are and have been different and I also think the both of us see ourselves as part of this community and can live with differences. I was not trying to single you out.

Yes, I realize that.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Greyson, Soon's question was not ignored. I answered her privately. I myself am a lesbian and butch and have not felt lesbians ostracizing me or feeling that I was not a woman or that I was not part of the lesbian community. So our perspective and experience is different.

Bully, my experience is very different than what is often (not always) presented here and in the real-time B-F/Tg/I/multi-sexuality based community I live in. This has become one of the reasons I am not posting as much in threads like this anymore. Also, many folks here are trying to figure out their gender variables and struggling deeply. I have been thinking that I'd rather see these members be able to find their path without so much of the divisive conversations we can get into. PM messages work well if we want to really talk on a more personal basis.

And sure, as a lesbian, I tire of the anti-lesbian, or as aptly described in the TOS, lesbian-phobic rhetoric that I often see here. Although, with the inclusion of lesbian-phobia in the TOS, I view the admin as top notch in recognizing the problem for what it is- bigotry about a sexual minority. Kudos to the admin! Yes, I have experienced butch-phobia and seen transphobia as well as femme-phobia from separatist lesbians. However, they do not represent the all lesbians and certainly not the majority.

In some ways, I feel like the question posed to (only) female-identified butches about our views on butch being used by some of the gender identifications here that claim masculine, male, or man is a form of baiting. We don't need any more division among us. And I do use us as inclusive. As I stated, there are many fully transitioned transmen that have a deep and long history of butch identity and I just don't see how that can be wiped-out simply due to transitioning. Butch is part of the narrative we all have experience with as femme (considering what many femmes get blasted with if they are involved with a TG person).

Sometimes, I honestly do not understand why there is so much division among us on websites like this. This is just not my real-time experience.

I will welcome the day when butch is not discussed in terms of Trans or visa versa and female is not compared to male in the same ways it has been for centuries. We (all of us) have the opportunity to transcend patriarchal bigotry right in front of us. I hope we seize this opportunity and write a very different history along with gender presentations and interaction. Historically, I see no better time to banish gender myths and sexism. But, we have to take the lead and get un-stuck.

Personally, I accept anyone's claim of butch.

[BullDog]

AtLast, I didn't find the question being posed to be baiting at all, especially taking into consideration who asked it. The reason I answered privately is because it's very obvious that my participation is not welcomed by some on this thread.

I responded to Greyson's post yesterday only because I didn't want there to be an impression that Soon's question was being ignored and my experience is very much indeed different than his.

I do agree with you that my experience of butch in the real world is very different than what I find online.

Now back to your male comparisons without any further intrusions from me.