Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

No, no, no. I said inherently THIRD gendered. Very different! And many do view butches this way, just like there are many who don't.

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well I am not third gendered either. It would be inaccurate to describe me as third gender and to say all butches are third gendered would not be any more true than saying all are transgendered.

True, it would be inaccurate. Which is why I didn't say that.

<---very confused.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

True, it would be inaccurate. Which is why I didn't say that.

<---very confused.

I am not being argumentative. I am saying that to say inherently third gender would be inaccurate- emphasis on word inherently. I did not take it to mean that you, Dapper, thought that.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I am not being argumentative. I am saying that to say inherently third gender would be inaccurate- emphasis on word inherently. I did not take it to mean that you, Dapper, thought that.

Ohhh, ok, I think I get what you are saying, now.

You are saying that you disagree with the concept that butches are inherently third gendered. You were saying that this cannot be so b/c you are butch and you are not third gendered. Am I understanding you correctly?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Ohhh, ok, I think I get what you are saying, now.

You are saying that you disagree with the concept that butches are inherently third gendered. You were saying that this cannot be so b/c you are butch and you are not third gendered. Am I understanding you correctly?

Yes, I don't believe all butches are third gendered. I also don't believe all butches are transgendered. I think it is misleading to say butch is inherently a third gender or transgender. A butch may or may not be third gender. A third gender person may or may not be butch.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes, I don't believe all butches are third gendered. I also don't believe all butches are transgendered. I think it is misleading to say butch is inherently a third gender or transgender. A butch may or may not be third gender. A third gender person may or may not be butch.

Ok in the context of this thread is where Dapper is using "inherently". No not all butches are third gendered, nor are they female, or male or transgendered. They are all over the spectrum and in the context of this male id'd/ FTM thread it may make more since than a strictly female lesbian butch thread. Yes? No?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Ok in the context of this thread is where Dapper is using "inherently". No not all butches are third gendered, nor are they female, or male or transgendered. They are all over the spectrum and in the context of this male id'd/ FTM thread it may make more since than a strictly female lesbian butch thread. Yes? No?

Yes, perhaps it may be more applicable when applied to male butches/FTMs, although I think there are plenty of FTMs who don't consider themselves to be third gender. Not sure if all male id'd butches do.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes, perhaps it may be more applicable when applied to male butches/FTMs, although I think there are plenty of FTMs and perhaps also male id'd butches who don't consider themselves to be third gender or transgender.

You may be correct, but so is Dapper. That's the beauty of each individual having their say in how they perceive themselves.

When trying to pidgin hole a group there's bound to be those who refuse to comply. YEY! There are no set ground rules, no set in stone ways of being. To each their own.

[Soon]

I don't know if it's just where I am from, but I have never heard of male - Id (or trans) butches until I joined these sites a few years ago.

I *thought* butches were masculine lesbians.

Well, that former notion of butch has expanded, but, honestly, it is only on these sites that I have heard of people Id'ing as butch AND male (or even trans too)--where there is no acknowledgement of female in conjunction with the ID of butch I guess is what I am trying to (poorly?) express.

Deviant wrote of her curiosity concerning people who have transitioned and retain butch as part of their identity.

This prompted me to wonder what lesbian butches (if anything) think of those who have physically transitioned from F to M and, yet, also retain the ID of butch?

I'm not sure if there's anyone besides Bulldog who id's as a lesbian butch on this thread, so I don't want to put you on the spot Bully, but I was curious if butches had any thoughts or feelings on the retention of butch as an ID for those who have transitioned.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

I don't know if it's just where I am from, but I have never heard of male - Id (or trans) butches until I joined these sites a few years ago.

I *thought* butches were masculine lesbians.

Well, that former notion of butch has expanded, but, honestly, it is only on these sites that I have heard of people Id'ing as butch AND male (or even trans too)--where there is no acknowledgement of female in conjunction with the ID of butch I guess is what I am trying to (poorly?) express.
Deviant wrote of her curiosity concerning people who have transitioned and retain butch as part of their identity.

This prompted me to wonder what lesbian butches (if anything) think of those who have physically transitioned from F to M and, yet, also retain the ID of butch?

I'm not sure if there's anyone besides Bulldog who id's as a lesbian butch on this thread, so I don't want to put you on the spot Bully, but I was curious if butches had any thoughts or feelings on the retention of butch as an ID for those who have transitioned.

Jo, I am surprised there as been no response to this post. I have been an out Butch for 38 years. Maybe this is in part why I cannot easily trade in my identity because I have "transitioned." Where and when I came out as a teenager may have been much more of an influence on my internal process of how I saw myself in gender and my sexual orientation. From my small corner of the world, "Butches" were not considered to be like other "women." We did not go about in our lives proclaiming to be "lesbians." In fact "lesbians" did not see us as part of "the community." Much has changed now. Previously in my thinking it was a given that I as a Butch was not "woman" in the same way as my identical twin sister, my mother or other women.

Very briefly in my personal history I did finally use the term "lesbian" to identify myself in a photography showing where my image was to be represented with many other Latinos/Latinas. Back then I wanted the heterosexual, lesbian and gay middle class that would primarily be viewing this show to have no doubt that I was indeed of the queer variety. I did not have the vocabulary nor knowledge that I have today about gender and sexuality.

For me, and only for me, Transmasculine Butch and Transman are very much the same. For me to clarify I am a "Transman" denotes, I was not born a cisgendered male. Transitioning has led me to greater self examination that I did not do in depth before I started the transition process. I have given much thought and taken action regarding my own and others, sexism, misogyny, racism and what it means to be a feminist.