Open Letter: Dear Femme

apretty · 12-07-2009, 07:10 PM

Medusa, you are fierce as fuck and anyone who's met you for a minute knows it. I only wish that you could deliver your letter in person, with a hip-sway and a hair-flip (cuz you got it like that).

(Authentic-Me says: Letting go is work, sometimes daily, sometimes on the hour and not everyone is in the same *place* -spiritually/emotionally- at the same time (therefore unable to hear uncomfortable stuffs), and in the end your only obligation is that you must be able to answer to *your fine-ass self*.)

Arwen · 12-07-2009, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apretty

(Authentic-Me says: Letting go is work, sometimes daily, sometimes on the hour and not everyone is in the same *place* -spiritually/emotionally- at the same time (therefore unable to hear uncomfortable stuffs), and in the end your only obligation is that you must be able to answer to *your fine-ass self*.)

I just needed you to know that this spoke to me on a very very personal level. You meant it for that fine Arkansas woman, but I'm taking it for myself as well. It may end up as the leaping off point of a blog entry--it gave me that much to think about.

Especially the bit bout others not being in the same *place*.

Valuable words. Gold, even. Thank you.

Bit · 12-08-2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by evolveme

Bit, first, let me say that Blush asked:

"I'd be interested to hear from y'all what YOU(and by You I mean all y'all, not YOU personally, Kosmo) can do to change how we are perceived."

To me, it appears that she is asking femmes to answer her question, and politely asking Kosmo not to speak to a question s/he could not speak to.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{e}}}}}}}}}}}

And there ya have it. Neither of us could see who Blush was looking at when she expanded on that request; you assumed she was "looking around the room" at all the Femmes and asking Kosmo to be quiet; I assumed she was "looking around the room" and inviting participation not just from Kosmo, but from all the Butches and Transmen in the room--expanding her request, not limiting it.

Only Blush can say what she really meant. Again, if I am the only one who read her post that way, I apologize for derailing.

I hope that you can see that I was telling you, not what Kosmo feels--I don't have that right--but how the wording of your post made ME feel, and how it came across to me, a person who has been repeatedly silenced in discussions very much like this one.

I also hope that you will keep it in the forefront that I appreciate what you are doing in the creation and shepherding of this conversation, and I stand beside you in your goals for it. I just want it to be very clear who is and isn't welcome to post and to answer direct questions.

I fully admit that is my own issue. I. Hate. Conflict. This is NOT a "Good Girl" issue, nor any kind of socialization issue. It is because I am Empathic, which is a psychic skill; I cannot bear to watch people inflict pain on one another because *I* feel it every time. This is my issue; I own it. All I ask from you to help me stay in the conversation is clarity--which you have now given, thank you--about who is welcome to give opinions in the thread.

SuperFemme · 12-08-2009, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bit

{{{{{{{{{{{{{e}}}}}}}}}}}

And there ya have it. Neither of us could see who Blush was looking at when she expanded on that request; you assumed she was "looking around the room" at all the Femmes and asking Kosmo to be quiet; I assumed she was "looking around the room" and inviting participation not just from Kosmo, but from all the Butches and Transmen in the room--expanding her request, not limiting it.

Only Blush can say what she really meant. Again, if I am the only one who read her post that way, I apologize for derailing.

I hope that you can see that I was telling you, not what Kosmo feels--I don't have that right--but how the wording of your post made ME feel, and how it came across to me, a person who has been repeatedly silenced in discussions very much like this one.

I also hope that you will keep it in the forefront that I appreciate what you are doing in the creation and shepherding of this conversation, and I stand beside you in your goals for it. I just want it to be very clear who is and isn't welcome to post and to answer direct questions.

I fully admit that is my own issue. I. Hate. Conflict. This is NOT a "Good Girl" issue, nor any kind of socialization issue. It is because I am Empathic, which is a psychic skill; I cannot bear to watch people inflict pain on one another because *I* feel it every time. This is my issue; I own it. All I ask from you to help me stay in the conversation is clarity--which you have now given, thank you--about who is welcome to give opinions in the thread.

(((Bit))) I am not silencing you with the following post. I really LIKE you and want to gently tell you that there wasn't any conflict here. Boundaries? Check. Purpose of the OP being followed? Check. Silencing? No.

It's hard for *Me* to watch what is happening in this thread. We ARE as Femme's allowed to carve out a safe space to talk about ourselves and things unique to being Femme. About being seen as more than a supporter of all things Butch. It iis not unimaginable to ask butches or trans people to not opine on how a femme should be. Opinions are welcome but within the boundaries set forth.

What IS important here is that you speak for yourself. About yourself.
We are all here with open arms for that. Because often we don't get to do that.

I understand the empath thing. I am extremely empathic and have to work to shield myself. To not take on others feelings. That is hard work but well worth it.

e told you that she and Kosmo had much conversation behind the scene and nobody had hurt feelings. I don't feel like you heard that, and I hope you'll consider it. IF Kosmo had been hurt and/or there was conflict it is up to Kosmo to speak up, work through it and maybe learn in the process.

I had much trepidation about posting to you because you have said numerous times in this thread that you've been silenced a lot. I am speaking to you from both a gentle and loving place. I hope that shines through in what I am trying to say here.

Medusa · 12-08-2009, 04:36 PM

I just wanted to say a huge "Thank you" to everyone who offered support to me yesterday and today (pink socks!). I felt a tremendous rush of love and courage and have just sent my resignation letter.

I rewrote it several times so that I could check myself for anger, projection, and gross stuff and I feel like, with the love and support and suggestions from folks here, that I sent a resignation that is truthful, authentic, from my "me" place, and healthy.

I feel exponentially better.

Thank you all so so so much.

*exhale*

blush · 12-08-2009, 10:20 PM

My intention was to open up the conversation to butches/trans as to what THEY can do in their mindset or interactions with femmes to change how WE are perceived. All members of this community are accountable for how femmes are perceived. It will take all of us to make changes.

However, I'm certainly not seeking to be told by butches/trans what I (or femmes) can do to make myself "less invisible" or whathaveyou.

I, too, consider this space femme-based.

Bit · 12-09-2009, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

e told you that she and Kosmo had much conversation behind the scene and nobody had hurt feelings. I don't feel like you heard that, and I hope you'll consider it.

{{{{{{{{{{{Adele}}}}}}}}}}}} Thank you for posting from a gentle place. I have also been doing my best to post from a gentle place.

The reason you feel like I didn't hear what e said about conversation with Kosmo behind the scenes is that I believe that no one has the right to speak for Kosmo which is, after all, the point here: if no one has the right to speak for us except us, then how can we turn around and claim the right to speak for anyone else?

I think that there were many ways to interpret Blush's post, and I think it's clear that Kosmo interpreted it exactly the same way I did. That might be a mistake in interpretation, but answering a direct request for information is not, I think, the same as someone "invading our space" so to speak. Yes, we have the right to carve out our space... but I believe we should be willing to accept that sometimes people interpret things differently--which to me is not the same as deliberately stealing our space.

In the end, none of us got it right anyway; Blush posted that she meant something different. *wry smile*

Does this make sense? Can you see my point?

I have no arguments with this thread being Femme space. I have no arguments with e and the way she is shepherding the convo. I appreciate what she is doing. I just needed clarity--which e provided--about who is welcome to post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blush

My intention was to open up the conversation to butches/trans as to what THEY can do in their mindset or interactions with femmes to change how WE are perceived. All members of this community are accountable for how femmes are perceived. It will take all of us to make changes.

Thank you for clarifying, Blush. I appreciate it. As you can see from my answer to Adele, I also interpreted your post as a request to Butches and Transmen to tell us what we can do to change the way we are perceived. I'm sorry for the misinterpretation.

Lynn · 12-09-2009, 03:16 PM

I realize that nothing is perfect, but I just want to say that every time I read a post on this thread (and on a couple of others), I just breathe a huge sigh of relief. I'm so grateful that we can have discussions about difficult, emotional topics, and still treat each other with respect and kindness. So, to you (all) from my mushy place, THANK YOU! This kind of open, honest, thoughtful discourse is, for me, the opposite of silencing. And, it goes a long way toward providing a space for me to "be"--and hopefully, it does the same for the collective you. Thank you!!

Lynn

evolveme · 12-09-2009, 04:33 PM

I'm taking this to everyone.

I see what I feel to be some interesting things happening here from a sociological perspective. I created a thread in which we could explore the ways in which feminine people are sublimated by the overall masculine-over nature of our communities, but I also had an eye toward the way in which we permit that subjection. How we, femme people, propagate it, as it were.

On one level, the conversation I've been having with Bit has been frustrating for me (not Bit, just the convo). I only meant to show that a butch person cannot and should not answer for us a question that can only be answered by us. This isn't personal, it is necessary. I saw Kosmo rewording Blush's question in such a way as to make it only answerable by femmes, and for me, this was an opportunity to speak to my point from the OP.

On another level, this conversation has been an important one because of what it might have revealed, and how it allows us to engage.

When we're in discussions over trans topics, I know that I hear transfolks saying, "Cispeople cannot tell us what we need to do to be understood/seen/etc. In order to be good allies, they need to listen."

I know that in the female-id'd butch thread, if any other id'd individual were to make a suggestion to them about them, they'd have a great deal to say to that poster. I think they have that right.

The bottom line here is that I want us to be as fiercely protective of ourselves as we have always tended to be of others.

It keeps coming up that perhaps I should have shut down this conversation to certain other individuals. It is not my intention to show anyone the door. I am not going to ask anyone to stay out of this conversation. I desire participation. I love every kind of voice there is. Bring the variation. But I will speak to masculine-centrism where I see it, and to old habits when they reflect masculine-over thinking. I believe there has been masculine-over thinking evident in this thread, and not just by masculine people. It's super important to me that we all look at this, at ourselves and one another and consider this syndrome.

Right now:

I want to know what the rest of you are seeing.

I want to know if all of you would prefer to hear the voices of everyone here (should they choose to participate), or only femme voices.

A lot of good questions about how we participate in masculine-centrism were skipped over pages ago. I hope more of you will think about those questions and answer them.

I've been thinking about those questions and will try to come back with some answers.

The_Lady_Snow · 12-09-2009, 05:01 PM

*I* Snow a Femme person type, would love to have femme's speak for themselves and NOT take a step back and let or allow the butch talk on their behalf.. For me and this is just me- I don't think and I could be wrong that any butch can honestly speak for me, about me, and about what I experience...

I could be wrong though

12-08-2009, 10:20 PM	#6
blush Member How Do You Identify?: femme Preferred Pronoun?: she Relationship Status: I'm with goofy. Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 911 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 962 Thanked 2,375 Times in 616 Posts Rep Power: 15632317	My intention was to open up the conversation to butches/trans as to what THEY can do in their mindset or interactions with femmes to change how WE are perceived. All members of this community are accountable for how femmes are perceived. It will take all of us to make changes. However, I'm certainly not seeking to be told by butches/trans what I (or femmes) can do to make myself "less invisible" or whathaveyou. I, too, consider this space femme-based. __________________ "We never forget those who make us blush." Jean-Francois de la Harpe

12-09-2009, 03:16 PM	#8
Lynn Member How Do You Identify?: Unabashed Feminine Lesbian Preferred Pronoun?: Her, She Relationship Status: Married! Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 689 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,499 Thanked 2,414 Times in 505 Posts Rep Power: 9668975	I realize that nothing is perfect, but I just want to say that every time I read a post on this thread (and on a couple of others), I just breathe a huge sigh of relief. I'm so grateful that we can have discussions about difficult, emotional topics, and still treat each other with respect and kindness. So, to you (all) from my mushy place, THANK YOU! This kind of open, honest, thoughtful discourse is, for me, the opposite of silencing. And, it goes a long way toward providing a space for me to "be"--and hopefully, it does the same for the collective you. Thank you!! Lynn __________________ In the flush of love's light we dare be brave And suddenly we see that love costs all we are and will ever be. Yet it is only love which sets us free. Maya Angelou Wedding Photos: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...1&l=22b092b98c

12-09-2009, 04:33 PM	#9
evolveme Member How Do You Identify?: honeysuckle venom Preferred Pronoun?: a pistol and a sugar cane Relationship Status: I promise to aid and abet Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: in between poems where ceilings are floors and joe ghost floats achromatic toward day Posts: 514 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 229 Thanked 735 Times in 228 Posts Rep Power: 503698	I'm taking this to everyone. I see what I feel to be some interesting things happening here from a sociological perspective. I created a thread in which we could explore the ways in which feminine people are sublimated by the overall masculine-over nature of our communities, but I also had an eye toward the way in which we permit that subjection. How we, femme people, propagate it, as it were. On one level, the conversation I've been having with Bit has been frustrating for me (not Bit, just the convo). I only meant to show that a butch person cannot and should not answer for us a question that can only be answered by us. This isn't personal, it is necessary. I saw Kosmo rewording Blush's question in such a way as to make it only answerable by femmes, and for me, this was an opportunity to speak to my point from the OP. On another level, this conversation has been an important one because of what it might have revealed, and how it allows us to engage. When we're in discussions over trans topics, I know that I hear transfolks saying, "Cispeople cannot tell us what we need to do to be understood/seen/etc. In order to be good allies, they need to listen." I know that in the female-id'd butch thread, if any other id'd individual were to make a suggestion to them about them, they'd have a great deal to say to that poster. I think they have that right. The bottom line here is that I want us to be as fiercely protective of ourselves as we have always tended to be of others. It keeps coming up that perhaps I should have shut down this conversation to certain other individuals. It is not my intention to show anyone the door. I am not going to ask anyone to stay out of this conversation. I desire participation. I love every kind of voice there is. Bring the variation. But I will speak to masculine-centrism where I see it, and to old habits when they reflect masculine-over thinking. I believe there has been masculine-over thinking evident in this thread, and not just by masculine people. It's super important to me that we all look at this, at ourselves and one another and consider this syndrome. Right now: I want to know what the rest of you are seeing. I want to know if all of you would prefer to hear the voices of everyone here (should they choose to participate), or only femme voices. A lot of good questions about how we participate in masculine-centrism were skipped over pages ago. I hope more of you will think about those questions and answer them. I've been thinking about those questions and will try to come back with some answers. __________________ Class, race, sexuality, gender and all other categories by which we categorize and dismiss each other need to be excavated from the inside. - Dorothy Allison

12-07-2009, 07:10 PM	#1
apretty Senior Member How Do You Identify?: femme Preferred Pronoun?: sea shell Relationship Status: married Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: san diego Posts: 1,687 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,927 Thanked 4,373 Times in 1,012 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	Medusa, you are fierce as fuck and anyone who's met you for a minute knows it. I only wish that you could deliver your letter in person, with a hip-sway and a hair-flip (cuz you got it like that). (Authentic-Me says: Letting go is work, sometimes daily, sometimes on the hour and not everyone is in the same place -spiritually/emotionally- at the same time (therefore unable to hear uncomfortable stuffs), and in the end your only obligation is that you must be able to answer to your fine-ass self.)

12-08-2009, 04:36 PM	#5
Medusa Mentally Delicious How Do You Identify?: Queer High Femme, thank you very much Preferred Pronoun?: Mme. Relationship Status: Married to JD. Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,446 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 5,995 Thanked 42,685 Times in 7,831 Posts Rep Power: 10000025	I just wanted to say a huge "Thank you" to everyone who offered support to me yesterday and today (pink socks!). I felt a tremendous rush of love and courage and have just sent my resignation letter. I rewrote it several times so that I could check myself for anger, projection, and gross stuff and I feel like, with the love and support and suggestions from folks here, that I sent a resignation that is truthful, authentic, from my "me" place, and healthy. I feel exponentially better. Thank you all so so so much. exhale

12-09-2009, 05:01 PM	#10
The_Lady_Snow MILLION $$$ PUSSY How Do You Identify?: Kinky, Raw, Perverted, Uber Queer Alpha Femme Preferred Pronoun?: Iconic Ms. Relationship Status: Keeper of 3, only one has the map to my freckles Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: La Reina del Sur Posts: 22,488 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 32,231 Thanked 80,078 Times in 15,670 Posts Rep Power: 21474874	I Snow a Femme person type, would love to have femme's speak for themselves and NOT take a step back and let or allow the butch talk on their behalf.. For me and this is just me- I don't think and I could be wrong that any butch can honestly speak for me, about me, and about what I experience... I could be wrong though