Negotiating Silence

NJFemmie · 12-09-2009, 08:30 AM

I've witnessed "silencing" usually when someone tries to proclaim something as "wrong". Things may be wrong to (collectively speaking) you - but if you don't agree with something, find it useful or pertinent to YOU, it doesn't make it wrong for someone else.

I suppose it's human nature to attempt to convince others of one's own beliefs. The end result is usually silence or the feeling of alienation.

Andrew, Jr. · 12-09-2009, 08:46 AM

For me, and me alone, I feel like this...my words may not come out right or I use the wrong word to express what it is I want too. I am not one that is good with oral expression-communication. Just how it is. Instead of me constantly asking others to restate it another way, I just leave. My words or phrases or sentences are taken out of context or the words I use are misconstrued to mean one thing, when in reality they were meant to mean something totally different. For me it is like this

or this

. Life for me is like

. I really thought online would be different in a community like this. I am silenced, day in and day out. It is very frustrating. I wish just an ounce of what is inside of me would come to light. Just once. But I know it won't ever happen. That is my reality. I will never have a high corporate job, or be a corporate hot shot. I am not ever going to have that ability. I have to learn to live with what I have been given.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Andrew

SuperFemme · 12-09-2009, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

I've witnessed "silencing" usually when someone tries to proclaim something as "wrong". Things may be wrong to (collectively speaking) you - but if you don't agree with something, find it useful or pertinent to YOU, it doesn't make it wrong for someone else.

I suppose it's human nature to attempt to convince others of one's own beliefs. The end result is usually silence or the feeling of alienation.

You bring up a most excellent point twisty lime! Silence = Alienation. In reading through this thread I am getting the sense that this a truth for some.

How can we negotiate this is my question? How as individuals can we not alienate each other?

NJFemmie · 12-09-2009, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

You bring up a most excellent point twisty lime! Silence = Alienation. In reading through this thread I am getting the sense that this a truth for some.

How can we negotiate this is my question? How as individuals can we not alienate each other?

I suppose negotiations could start by not stating that something is WRONG. No one wants to hear that just as much as the person who is trying to convince that their way is the right way. There is no right or wrong way when it comes to other people's feelings - opinions however - are loaded guns.

The key to tolerance and understanding is remembering that if it doesn't suit you - leave it alone. The beauty of a community is knowing that there are others out there who feel and think the way you do (to some degree). It isn't necessary to recruit others to YOUR (the collective) way of thinking.

SuperFemme · 12-09-2009, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

I suppose negotiations could start by not stating that something is WRONG. No one wants to hear that just as much as the person who is trying to convince that their way is the right way. There is no right or wrong way when it comes to other people's feelings - opinions however - are loaded guns.

The key to tolerance and understanding is remembering that if it doesn't suit you - leave it alone. The beauty of a community is knowing that there are others out there who feel and think the way you do (to some degree). It isn't necessary to recruit others to YOUR (the collective) way of thinking.

My name is adele and I am so NOT here to recruit you! (sorry, couldn't resist)

This is a great post! I wonder if people equate everyone not agreeing with them to not being heard? Then it all goes to hell in a handbasket. The thing is, on the other side of the coin that is not being heard is not listening. Listening means extracting ones POV and being open IMO.

Apocalipstic · 12-09-2009, 09:02 AM

Great subject SuperFemme!

I see many times when because of cultural, geographic or differences in communication styles and plain old reading comprehension people get in a frenzy and report posts that were not meant to be offensive, and in fact, if read in the right tone were not offensive at all. Not so much on this website, but I have seen it a couple of times here.

I think it is important that rather than assuming the worst, we try and look at the whys and the what really was said.

Of course, at the point we are misunderstood, we can choose to feel silenced, or we can explain and apologize. For me, navigating these threads does involve a good bit of apologizing and trying to see things from different standpoints.

Atomic, I completely get and hear what you are saying. There is so much pain and anger around how Butches identify and where the Trans community fits in. My belief is that individual people who have or have had very small views of the world say hurtful things and it gets blown up to affect the entire community at large. I admit I am guilty of wanting there to be a place for woman identified Butches, because when my G/F joined B-F and met people in person she was told she was not allowed to be called she and that her name would have to be changed to Sydney or Chris. She chose to remove herself from the issue and stay off the threads which makes me pretty sad. For me, I do think there need to be places where different groups can discuss their own issues...I am particularly enjoying the Femme threads for example.

On the other hand,
When we are together, who cares about ID's unless we are trying to date.

I wish we could get to that point on line.

I wish we could accept each person as who they are and how they see themselves and respect their wishes without trying to change them.

SuperFemme · 12-09-2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I wish we could accept each person as who they are and how they see themselves and respect their wishes without trying to change them.

I wish that too. On the other hand sometimes I wish some would change how they see others..

Apocalipstic · 12-09-2009, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I wish that too. On the other hand sometimes I wish some would change how they see others..

I wonder if the two are entertwined? I know it is so much easier to be kind to others and cut them a break when I do for myself.

SuperFemme · 12-09-2009, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

I wonder if the two are entertwined? I know it is so much easier to be kind to others and cut them a break when I do for myself.

Absolutely they are intertwined! I keep seeing discussion head down an either/or road. Either you see it my way Or you are just wrong. Either/Or never ends well.

You cannot be the teacher without being the student.

Linus · 12-09-2009, 09:27 AM

Something that just popped into my head: if someone responds to a post and only addresses one point, totally ignoring the other points of the post that they are responding to and focuses on that one point, is that silencing?

It's a challenge, IMO, because sometimes there isn't a need to respond to all points and sometimes it's a specific point that you want to address or feel you can offer an opinion/view on. But by doing the latter, I wonder if that feels like or accomplishes a silencing behaviour whether we intend to or not.

** the irony of this post doesn't escape me

**

Andrew, Jr. · 12-09-2009, 09:31 AM

Linus,

I can only focus on 1 thing at a time. I can't focus or multi-task on 10 different things. It may seem to others like I may be ignoring them, but I'm not. I just am not able to do it the way others are. That is why I rely on other folks like yourself and Jack to help me to understand.

Andrew

Apocalipstic · 12-09-2009, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linus

Something that just popped into my head: if someone responds to a post and only addresses one point, totally ignoring the other points of the post that they are responding to and focuses on that one point, is that silencing?

It's a challenge, IMO, because sometimes there isn't a need to respond to all points and sometimes it's a specific point that you want to address or feel you can offer an opinion/view on. But by doing the latter, I wonder if that feels like or accomplishes a silencing behaviour whether we intend to or not.

** the irony of this post doesn't escape me

**

Yes yes, or if we agree with a post, but do not comment on each an every word of everypost, or respond fast enough...are we in fact ignoring the post and silencing the poster?

Lynn · 12-09-2009, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linus

Something that just popped into my head: if someone responds to a post and only addresses one point, totally ignoring the other points of the post that they are responding to and focuses on that one point, is that silencing?

It's a challenge, IMO, because sometimes there isn't a need to respond to all points and sometimes it's a specific point that you want to address or feel you can offer an opinion/view on. But by doing the latter, I wonder if that feels like or accomplishes a silencing behaviour whether we intend to or not.

** the irony of this post doesn't escape me

**

I don't think it's silencing to only respond to one point. That may be the point that speaks to the individual responding. It could happen that way in a real time discussion, too. Are you saying that it may feel invalidating to the original poster, that they don't feel completely "heard"?

I have seen people post comments and when no one responds, they come back on with a pouty kind of tone, "No body likes me, why is everyone ignoring me? I'm not a cool kid" thing. I see it on another site a lot (not a b-f type site). I feel sad when that happens, but I don't think it's silencing to not respond to someone. No one should be obligated to communicate when they have nothing to say.

Linus · 12-09-2009, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynn

I don't think it's silencing to only respond to one point. That may be the point that speaks to the individual responding. It could happen that way in a real time discussion, too. Are you saying that it may feel invalidating to the original poster, that they don't feel completely "heard"?

Could be not heard but more that the focus is on some small point and not the overall context or point of the post. I mean, if someone asks a question at the end, I certain would expect responses to be based on the question but if the question is a culmination of an experience and no one reads the experience, then the responses may not necessarily help. It can also be a small specific point that isn't indicative of the whole post and could result in a view being taken out of context. I dunno if I'm being clear. I know I can talk in circles sometimes so if I have I apologize.

Quote:

I have seen people post comments and when no one responds, they come back on with a pouty kind of tone, "No body likes me, why is everyone ignoring me? I'm not a cool kid" thing. I see it on another site a lot (not a b-f type site). I feel sad when that happens, but I don't think it's silencing to not respond to someone. No one should be obligated to communicate when they have nothing to say.

I've seen that as well. I have posted a few threads which I thought would be great discussions but no one has replied (although I got lots of rep feedback). I just wish some of it would be in the discussion but I suspect sometimes it's too sensitive of an issue to discuss. I won't get pouty over it (although I can if it helps start discussion

). I think when we start a thread we have to remember that it sometimes won't cause everyone to speak, respond, etc. Sometimes it will; sometimes people look at a post and see it as a vent/rant/PoV that they agree with and have nothing more that they could add (this is one of the reasons I thought the "Thanks" button would be good).

apretty · 12-09-2009, 09:49 AM

i think that silencing can only exist if there's some power imbalance. (and not a perceived imbalance, a true power imbalance.)

the other so-called silencing, isn't. what i hear being described is when someone feels 'misheard' or 'misunderstood' and that can be frustrating (or not) but it's really between you and you (or myself and i) and i'm sure it *feels* really real, but it's not a certain *thing* that's being done to you (or me) unless you happen to think that it is (and again, that's between you and you).

SuperFemme · 12-09-2009, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apretty

i think that silencing can only exist if there's some power imbalance. (and not a perceived imbalance, a true power imbalance.)

the other so-called silencing, isn't. what i hear being described is when someone feels 'misheard' or 'misunderstood' and that can be frustrating (or not) but it's really between you and you (or myself and i) and i'm sure it *feels* really real, but it's not a certain *thing* that's being done to you (or me) unless you happen to think that it is (and again, that's between you and you).

Ding! Ding! Ding! You are in my head. I see the word silencing being used a lot. I am still trying to understand if Silencing is indeed a two party act a lot of the time.

SuperFemme · 12-09-2009, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linus

Something that just popped into my head: if someone responds to a post and only addresses one point, totally ignoring the other points of the post that they are responding to and focuses on that one point, is that silencing?

It's a challenge, IMO, because sometimes there isn't a need to respond to all points and sometimes it's a specific point that you want to address or feel you can offer an opinion/view on. But by doing the latter, I wonder if that feels like or accomplishes a silencing behaviour whether we intend to or not.

** the irony of this post doesn't escape me

**

Are you speaking to the fact that I didn't answer you point by point?
Am I being silencing by not doing so? Or are you being silencing by expecting me to?

I, like many others on this site am differently abled. With a traumatic brain injury it is super hard for me to form cognitive thoughts on more than one thing at a time. I couldn't form an appropriate response to you feeling unwelcome because you are Trans or Canadian or what have you. I can speculate, but I don't know how that feels. I don't want to cheerlead so much as to learn. I thought I acknowledged with 'great points" because they ARE great points.

Part of the reason I started this thread is that I want to learn. So my question above comes from an open minded teachable headspace.

Linus · 12-09-2009, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Are you speaking to the fact that I didn't answer you point by point?
Am I being silencing by not doing so? Or are you being silencing by expecting me to?

Heh.. no. It's because I didn't respond to all your points in the OP and also didn't address others completely either. Hence, the irony. I think, however, you've done a great job at trying to answer and address points as they come into play. Which, IMO, everyone feel like they have a part in this, are valued for their opinion and are not silenced.

Quote:

I, like many others on this site am differently abled. With a traumatic brain injury it is super hard for me to form cognitive thoughts on more than one thing at a time. I couldn't form an appropriate response to you feeling unwelcome because you are Trans or Canadian or what have you. I can speculate, but I don't know how that feels. I don't want to cheerlead so much as to learn. I thought I acknowledged with 'great points" because they ARE great points.

Totally understand and completely get. This is much like me not understanding what it's like to live with being differently abled and others not being aware of the challenges that are added on with that, especially one that doesn't necessarily appear obvious.

Please be assured it wasn't directed at you but rather something that I remember from a previous discussion on a similar topic on an online game (since the premise of the game involved online discussion and politics, silencing was a common activity although it wasn't called silencing) and I've seen elsewhere online. One of the things I've noticed is that when this is done, sometimes two people -- both who have the same view but present it differently -- ended up arguing against each other over the smallest point (e.g., honor vs honour).

Quote:

Part of the reason I started this thread is that I want to learn. So my question above comes from an open minded teachable headspace.

Always a good thing.

NJFemmie · 12-09-2009, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linus

Something that just popped into my head: if someone responds to a post and only addresses one point, totally ignoring the other points of the post that they are responding to and focuses on that one point, is that silencing?

It's a challenge, IMO, because sometimes there isn't a need to respond to all points and sometimes it's a specific point that you want to address or feel you can offer an opinion/view on. But by doing the latter, I wonder if that feels like or accomplishes a silencing behaviour whether we intend to or not.

** the irony of this post doesn't escape me

**

I did have a nicely worded post for this and then I lost my internet connection ... basically ...

Some people in here have already nailed a part of this on the head - I think a lot of this so-called "dismissiveness" is based on the LOOK AT ME complex.

I admit that I don't answer EVERY single post in a thread - I don't find it particularly necessary - especially if others have already typed out what I was thinking on the matter. If I don't have anything to add to it - I won't. I have posted tons of stuff in my day without so much as an acknowledgment, and quite frankly, I can't take it personally. (Did I feel dismissed? perhaps - it depended on my mood that day...) Whether I was blatantly ignored, or perhaps they felt my comments were of no importance or use - is subjective (or would that be relative ...?) anyway, so ... I moved on.

Then, you have some posters who are ALL OVER THE PLACE with their rant - and frankly, I may just pull the pertinent information and comment on what I felt was the subject matter.

Words also stated it quite nicely - some use language/verbiage that makes my head want to explode. I have the occasional bout of ADD - I can't be bothered, sorry. I prefer the easy read - I am getting too old to play decipher this post, lol.

So - yes, I suppose it's a tricky matter ... but I think a lot of it is based on attention. Online forums are not the same as a face to face conversation, and that has to be the given. You cannot expect the same results and/or attention.

violaine · 07-29-2010, 12:06 AM

[QUOTE=NJFemmie;18678]I've witnessed "silencing" usually when someone tries to proclaim something as "wrong". Things may be wrong to (collectively speaking) you - but if you don't agree with something, find it useful or pertinent to YOU, it doesn't make it wrong for someone else.

I suppose it's human nature to attempt to convince others of one's own beliefs. The end result is usually silence or the feeling of alienation.

i have been looking through so many threads trying to find one on 'history', and instead, i keep stumbling across good topics.

i've noticed the same thing you are describing, and have wondered in situations why disagreeing is considered 'wrong' - or why is it 'wrong' to disagree? what if the word 'wrong' was switched to something else ?

12-09-2009, 08:30 AM	#1
NJFemmie Senior Member How Do You Identify?: The original lime-twisted femme Preferred Pronoun?: I answer to most things, especially lesbian. Relationship Status: Still loving my Mare ;) Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: New Jersey Posts: 4,683 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,343 Thanked 11,419 Times in 2,976 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	I've witnessed "silencing" usually when someone tries to proclaim something as "wrong". Things may be wrong to (collectively speaking) you - but if you don't agree with something, find it useful or pertinent to YOU, it doesn't make it wrong for someone else. I suppose it's human nature to attempt to convince others of one's own beliefs. The end result is usually silence or the feeling of alienation. __________________

12-09-2009, 09:02 AM	#6
Apocalipstic Pink Confection How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She, Her, Ma'am Relationship Status: Dating Myself Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Nashville Posts: 4,266 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 17,195 Thanked 11,362 Times in 2,838 Posts Rep Power: 21474857	Great subject SuperFemme! I see many times when because of cultural, geographic or differences in communication styles and plain old reading comprehension people get in a frenzy and report posts that were not meant to be offensive, and in fact, if read in the right tone were not offensive at all. Not so much on this website, but I have seen it a couple of times here. I think it is important that rather than assuming the worst, we try and look at the whys and the what really was said. Of course, at the point we are misunderstood, we can choose to feel silenced, or we can explain and apologize. For me, navigating these threads does involve a good bit of apologizing and trying to see things from different standpoints. Atomic, I completely get and hear what you are saying. There is so much pain and anger around how Butches identify and where the Trans community fits in. My belief is that individual people who have or have had very small views of the world say hurtful things and it gets blown up to affect the entire community at large. I admit I am guilty of wanting there to be a place for woman identified Butches, because when my G/F joined B-F and met people in person she was told she was not allowed to be called she and that her name would have to be changed to Sydney or Chris. She chose to remove herself from the issue and stay off the threads which makes me pretty sad. For me, I do think there need to be places where different groups can discuss their own issues...I am particularly enjoying the Femme threads for example. On the other hand, When we are together, who cares about ID's unless we are trying to date. I wish we could get to that point on line. I wish we could accept each person as who they are and how they see themselves and respect their wishes without trying to change them. __________________

12-09-2009, 09:27 AM	#10
Linus The Planet's Technical Bubba How Do You Identify?: FTM Preferred Pronoun?: He/Him/Geek Relationship Status: Married to my forever! Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Redondo Beach, CA Posts: 5,440 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,929 Thanked 10,727 Times in 3,172 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	Something that just popped into my head: if someone responds to a post and only addresses one point, totally ignoring the other points of the post that they are responding to and focuses on that one point, is that silencing? It's a challenge, IMO, because sometimes there isn't a need to respond to all points and sometimes it's a specific point that you want to address or feel you can offer an opinion/view on. But by doing the latter, I wonder if that feels like or accomplishes a silencing behaviour whether we intend to or not. the irony of this post doesn't escape me __________________ Personal Blog \|\| [] \|\| Cigar Blog "We become Human Doings instead of Human Beings." -- Ram Dass

12-09-2009, 08:46 AM	#2
Andrew, Jr. Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Me Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Unavailable Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Over the Rainbow in a House Posts: 5,072 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 16,004 Thanked 5,249 Times in 2,216 Posts Rep Power: 0	For me, and me alone, I feel like this...my words may not come out right or I use the wrong word to express what it is I want too. I am not one that is good with oral expression-communication. Just how it is. Instead of me constantly asking others to restate it another way, I just leave. My words or phrases or sentences are taken out of context or the words I use are misconstrued to mean one thing, when in reality they were meant to mean something totally different. For me it is like this or this . Life for me is like . I really thought online would be different in a community like this. I am silenced, day in and day out. It is very frustrating. I wish just an ounce of what is inside of me would come to light. Just once. But I know it won't ever happen. That is my reality. I will never have a high corporate job, or be a corporate hot shot. I am not ever going to have that ability. I have to learn to live with what I have been given. Just my 2 cents worth. Andrew

12-09-2009, 09:31 AM	#11
Andrew, Jr. Timed Out How Do You Identify?: Me Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Unavailable Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Over the Rainbow in a House Posts: 5,072 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 16,004 Thanked 5,249 Times in 2,216 Posts Rep Power: 0	Linus, I can only focus on 1 thing at a time. I can't focus or multi-task on 10 different things. It may seem to others like I may be ignoring them, but I'm not. I just am not able to do it the way others are. That is why I rely on other folks like yourself and Jack to help me to understand. Andrew

12-09-2009, 09:49 AM	#15
apretty Senior Member How Do You Identify?: femme Preferred Pronoun?: sea shell Relationship Status: married Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: san diego Posts: 1,687 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,927 Thanked 4,373 Times in 1,012 Posts Rep Power: 21474854	i think that silencing can only exist if there's some power imbalance. (and not a perceived imbalance, a true power imbalance.) the other so-called silencing, isn't. what i hear being described is when someone feels 'misheard' or 'misunderstood' and that can be frustrating (or not) but it's really between you and you (or myself and i) and i'm sure it feels really real, but it's not a certain thing that's being done to you (or me) unless you happen to think that it is (and again, that's between you and you).

07-29-2010, 12:06 AM	#20
violaine Timed Out How Do You Identify?: atypical Preferred Pronoun?: plague words and phrases Relationship Status: love wise guys of the avian world Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: wekiva springs basin Posts: 3,236 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,934 Thanked 3,293 Times in 1,301 Posts Rep Power: 0	[QUOTE=NJFemmie;18678]I've witnessed "silencing" usually when someone tries to proclaim something as "wrong". Things may be wrong to (collectively speaking) you - but if you don't agree with something, find it useful or pertinent to YOU, it doesn't make it wrong for someone else. I suppose it's human nature to attempt to convince others of one's own beliefs. The end result is usually silence or the feeling of alienation. i have been looking through so many threads trying to find one on 'history', and instead, i keep stumbling across good topics. i've noticed the same thing you are describing, and have wondered in situations why disagreeing is considered 'wrong' - or why is it 'wrong' to disagree? what if the word 'wrong' was switched to something else ?