Negotiating Silence

[atomiczombie]

I think this is a great discussion to have. I guess for me being "silenced" isn't the word that resonates with me. For me, it is "invisible." I feel invisible a lot. I feel invisible when people assume that because I ID as male, that I take up too much space and alienate female ID'd people. I read posts where masculine /transmasculine people are lumped together and talked about, and blanket statements are made about them. Then I hear people saying, this is our discussion, and although we talk about you, you don't have a right to be a part of this discussion. Ouch.

What I want people to know about me is: I am a sweet guy who respects everyone's right to proclaim who they are and speak their truth. I believe that everyone deserves to be respected and listened to and taken seriously. I believe that I do my very best every day to be respectful and kind and a good listener, and to give everyone the space and voice that they feel they need and deserve. I am not someone who ignores someone else's point of view and assumes that I know it all and have nothing to learn. I am very aware that there is a lot that I need to learn, and I try very hard to listen to people and understand where they are coming from.

When someone doesn't see this about me, when someone assumes I won't understand, when someone lumps me in with other people who are disrespectful just because my gender identity might be similar, I feel invisible. I feel just as invisible as when someone calls me "ma'am" or "miss." It feels just as icky, and maybe more since it comes from within the community I love and feel at home in.

What makes YOU (the collective you) feel invisible? I want to know what everyone else feels, and what they would like people like me to know about them.

Thanks for starting this thread Superfemme.

[Pixie]

I feel invisible when there are assumptions. When your words are read but not comprehended and not really given a comfortable stepping stone in explaining. I feel invisible when a different perception is insufficient and misunderstood. Although... I resonate glitter so I don't like to disappear much lol.

[SuperFemme]

Feeling invisible is never a good thing. Invisibility is a fact of life for me as a Femme. I have to come out over and over again.

Blanket statements and generalizations suck. One person cannot speak for the masses. I cringe when I see them, and often address them gently.

As for not being invited to conversations? I can dissect it. I believe it is not only ok but absolutely necessary to carve out safe spaces in our community where sub-groups can discuss. Usually these spaces are not exclusionary, but ask participants not in the sub-group to refrain from speaking the truth of the sub-group. That doesn't mean others cannot participate, it means they are being asked to speak their truth. Not the truth the believe to be somebody elses. It's kind of like a backwards blanket statement.

For example, if I went into a thread about trans people and spoke about the effects of taking testosterone. I don't take it. My partner does, but that is kind of irrelevant. How could I possibly know the shoes another is walking in? As an ally it is tempting to jump in, but there is nothing to offer from my me place. I'm not trans. So I read. Or go to a thread about partners of trans people because I have a journey that is relevant.

Pixiestars. Thank you for your post. It reads to me like you choose to be silent for various reasons. That doesn't mean I am right, it is just my read. May I ask you if you *feel* silence when working within your boundaries?

[Pixie]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

Feeling invisible is never a good thing. Invisibility is a fact of life for me as a Femme. I have to come out over and over again.

Pixiestars. Thank you for your post. It reads to me like you choose to be silent for various reasons. That doesn't mean I am right, it is just my read. May I ask you if you *feel* silence when working within your boundaries?

I hear you about the coming out over and over again.

I have had to stay silenced about myself due to job restrictions before. For the comfort of others, which sucks.

Yes sometimes I choose to be silent for prevention, but there are other times its been an instance where I was in the middle and a "so there", "you're wrong period", "done with you" emphasis was left on the end...and the ringing silence was all that was possible. If that makes sense.

[T D]

What I've noticed about these silencing threads is that when one person doesn't like or perhaps even really understand what another persons outlook, perception, view point, history, on and on and on, is they often times come back with a silencing statement, generally about how the other persons post is of no help, pertinent to the subject, or whatever form of silencing they choose to use. It always amazes me that this goes on over and over and over like they're not silencing people with these types of statements. I believe that people often times use them as a means to attack others with hidden agendas. As a rule I try to stay away from them for the most part now because of this very reason.

Just my take on it, and my 2 cents worth at the moment

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

For example, if I went into a thread about trans people and spoke about the effects of taking testosterone. I don't take it. My partner does, but that is kind of irrelevant. How could I possibly know the shoes another is walking in? As an ally it is tempting to jump in, but there is nothing to offer from my me place. I'm not trans. So I read. Or go to a thread about partners of trans people because I have a journey that is relevant.

Ok but this kind of example is an orange, not an apple. I am talking about when people who are not transguys or male ID'd talk about male ID'd people and lump them into one group and say that they dominate the space, etc. I read that and think to myself, gee, that may be true of some guys, but I know that isn't me. So that's not fair. I have seen this in more than one thread on this site, and I have seen other things like it said too. I understand that some guys are stupid and don't see other people and consider them. I understand that some guys are misogynist pigs. I see that behavior and cringe. I try to call it out when I do see it. Please, don't lump me in with those guys. It's fine to say that 'some men do such and such, and I have this experience with some men', but don't say men do this and men do that... I feel invisible when people do that. And then to say, this is a women-only discussion and your coming in here and getting defensive is just an example of you silencing us and dominating our space, etc., well that is silencing too.

I totally get that women, butch or femme, deserve to have their own space to discuss their common experiences and ideas. I respect that and I read those threads as a means of educating myself so that I can be more sensitive to the needs and feelings of others. I generally don't post there, cause that's not my place. The only thing that upsets me is when I read things people say about us transguys. Again, some transguys may do stupid stuff, but not all and that distinction is often not made.

[amiyesiam]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

Ok but this kind of example is an orange, not an apple. I am talking about when people who are not transguys or male ID'd talk about male ID'd people and lump them into one group and say that they dominate the space, etc. I read that and think to myself, gee, that may be true of some guys, but I know that isn't me. So that's not fair. I have seen this in more than one thread on this site, and I have seen other things like it said too. I understand that some guys are stupid and don't see other people and consider them. I understand that some guys are misogynist pigs. I see that behavior and cringe. I try to call it out when I do see it. Please, don't lump me in with those guys. It's fine to say that 'some men do such and such, and I have this experience with some men', but don't say men do this and men do that... I feel invisible when people do that. And then to say, this is a women-only discussion and your coming in here and getting defensive is just an example of you silencing us and dominating our space, etc., well that is silencing too.


I totally get that women, butch or femme, deserve to have their own space to discuss their common experiences and ideas. I respect that and I read those threads as a means of educating myself so that I can be more sensitive to the needs and feelings of others. I generally don't post there, cause that's not my place. The only thing that upsets me is when I read things people say about us transguys. Again, some transguys may do stupid stuff, but not all and that distinction is often not made.

Agreed!
I have found that people are people. Dumb and stupid to not belong to any one group. Character traits exist across all groups. I have found on threads that are "only _______" space others enter at will. MY all time fav was a newly created butch space that some femmes tried to paint pink.

Quote: Again, some transguys(lesbians, butches, femmes, women, men, children, grownups, governments, straights, poor people, rich people, right wing people, left wing people) may do stupid stuff, but not all and that distinction is often not made.

Life is just so much easier when you base your opinions about someone on the content of their character rather than how they id, their race, religion etc. Of course this requires more work.

[Just_G]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I think this is a great discussion to have. I guess for me being "silenced" isn't the word that resonates with me. For me, it is "invisible." I feel invisible a lot. I feel invisible when people assume that because I ID as male, that I take up too much space and alienate female ID'd people. I read posts where masculine /transmasculine people are lumped together and talked about, and blanket statements are made about them. Then I hear people saying, this is our discussion, and although we talk about you, you don't have a right to be a part of this discussion. Ouch.

What I want people to know about me is: I am a sweet guy who respects everyone's right to proclaim who they are and speak their truth. I believe that everyone deserves to be respected and listened to and taken seriously. I believe that I do my very best every day to be respectful and kind and a good listener, and to give everyone the space and voice that they feel they need and deserve. I am not someone who ignores someone else's point of view and assumes that I know it all and have nothing to learn. I am very aware that there is a lot that I need to learn, and I try very hard to listen to people and understand where they are coming from.

When someone doesn't see this about me, when someone assumes I won't understand, when someone lumps me in with other people who are disrespectful just because my gender identity might be similar, I feel invisible. I feel just as invisible as when someone calls me "ma'am" or "miss." It feels just as icky, and maybe more since it comes from within the community I love and feel at home in.

What makes YOU (the collective you) feel invisible? I want to know what everyone else feels, and what they would like people like me to know about them.

Thanks for starting this thread Superfemme.

AZ, you hit the nail on the head here....I don't like being lumped into a certain group because of how I id. I don't like the idea of having to say "that's not fair", because it sounds so third gradish, so I say nothing at all. I remain invisible.

I am also not so great with words when trying to say what is in my head sometimes and feel like I am not explaining myself all that well. Some of the discussions can get pretty deep, and sometimes language is used that I don't fully understand or comprehend. (I am a smart guy, so I am not saying this to put myself down, I just know my reading comprehension skills and vocabulary is not what some people's are). It can be very frustrating.

I am glad you started this thread Superfemme!